Security Fence proves its worth

NO, thats not true, the "Attacks" are not random events but designed to take out the Hamas members. Their success has cut down the structure of the bombers.

What is the alternative? I have read that so far they have taken out a lot of the leaders and really mde it harder for Hamas to attack. Good on them...

That is unfortunetely not the whole story:

www.usatoday.com...

Even King Bush said that was 'heavy handed'

www.amnesty.it...

74 civilians in ONE DAY!!!! That surely amounts to genocide. Did you actually take the time to follow any of those links I posted?

Israeli sniper DELIBERATELY targetting civilians. Who are the real terrorists in the Holy Land? Let's not forget that Sharon Himself is (allegedly) a terrorist and mass murderer:

www.greenleft.org.au...

Any attempt by the Israeli government to justify it's claims, instantly falls flat on it's face because of the claims against Sharon. Since when did we accept 'collateral damage'.
And assuming these responses were justifiable, why use attack aircraft, tanks and helicopters firing missiles? A single sniper is cheaper, and has less chance of causing collateral damage. This way there is no need for America to continue its funding of what amounts to a terrorist regime.
Remember that the six day war was started by the Israelis as a land grab (read leibenstraum) operation to secure vital resources, like water in the region.

[Edited on 22-12-2003 by MacGonzo]

OK your first link said this "killing a Hamas leader at the top of Israel's most wanted list. " Who were the rest of the people- family members. Supporters and colluders.

BTW it came from July.

Your Amnesty article came from 18 APRIL 1996!!!! and is about Southern Lebanon.

If you want to be that historical then you lose credability.

I can look back as well the the suicide attack on the bus full of CHRILDREN earlier this year, killing I think 19 and wounding over 40.

The last link came from 1982!!! and was about Lebanon as well

Twisting information is not a good way to get your argument across

[Edited on 22-12-2003 by Netchicken]

Here, from today...
Monday, December 22, 2003
216.26.163.62...

JERUSALEM � Israel's military has captured one of Hamas's top operatives in the West Bank.

Israeli troops arrested Adnan Asfour in the West Bank city of Nablus over the weekend. Israeli sources said Asfour has become the leading operative in the Nablus region and the spokesman of the group in the entire West Bank.

Special operations forces surrounded Asfour's hideout, located in his brother's five- story apartment building on Sunday. The sources said after the building was evacuated Asfour was arrested and a computer as well as maps were seized.

The arrest of Asfour, 38, was regarded as the key achievement in a nearly week-long Israeli military operation in the Nablus area. Israeli troops have searched for suicide bombers and their handlers in Nablus as well as the adjacent Balata refugee camp.

The search operation in Balata was often conducted from house to house. In some cases, Palestinians hurled firebombs and stones at soldiers, who responded with tear gas and rubber bullets.

Fair enough, I didn't check the dates, but being historical doesn't invalidate any of the information I have presented. Stating that Hitler was a war criminal and linking to a site which gives news reports of his crimes doesn't invalidate the information.
The point I'm making is that both sides are just as guilty as each other with regard to civilian deaths, it has become tit-for-tat, almost like a childish 'he hit me first, so I hit him back' kinda situation.
I replied to this post and take the stance I do, because I feel it is unjustified to catagorically denounce the Palestinians, while at the same time justifing the Israelis tactics.
Does anyone else see this as a double standard?
Even Israeli elite special forces and pilots are now refusing to take part in attacks on Palestinian Authority areas, as your article states.
This is from a more recent story:

news.bbc.co.uk...



[Edited on 22-12-2003 by MacGonzo]

Originally posted by MacGonzo
I don't think it is fair to blame all this onto their religious beliefs. Christianity also honours their martyrs, as much as Islam does. Fundamentalism within a religion is a negative thing, regardless of which religion you follow.

A Christian martyr is someone who is persecuted and killed for their beliefs. This is very different from the Islamic Shaheed who seeks death while committing murder.

I do not blame anything on their religious beliefs. Your claim that Palestinian-Arab terrorism is caused by Israeli defense from terrorism is circular logic, and I refute that argument by pointing to specific elements within Palestinian-Arab culture that support and promote terrorism. These cultural elements are promoted by a small group that seeks to perpetuate the violence, not end it.

Originally posted by MacGonzo
Some of their religious leaders may promote the use of suicide bomber, etc., to further their ends, but they are only using and feeding the sentioment of the people.

Using and feeding the sentiments of the people for what purpose? To perpetuate the violence.

Originally posted by MacGonzo
Don't forget that both sides in this war, for it is such, have commited attrocities, the Israelis are no angels.

I don�t believe any country that has ever fought a war is free of atrocities, however in this conflict, the Palestinian-Arabs makes the commission of atrocities a policy.

Originally posted by MacGonzo
The Palestinians have no state, and hence, no standing army, and as a result it is impossible for them to meet the Israeli soldier on similar terms.

And yet it is the use of terror that prevents them from having a state. Had they lived up to their obligations under the Oslo accords, a second Palestinian-Arab state would have been created in 1998, and it would be starting its sixth year of existence today.

Originally posted by MacGonzo
The fact remains, if BOTH sides don't pull back from the brink and sort this out sensibly, the bloodshed on both sides will continue. There has been many political schemes and lies from both sides, and neither side really wants peace, perhaps the people want peace, but the politicians are either unwilling or unable to cement any deal.

On what do you base this analysis?

Originally posted by MacGonzo
The wall may be good at stopping suicide bombers, but it will not create any feeling of goodwill between these nations.

I have two problems with this statement:

First, stopping suicide bombers is the priority. It is absurd to expect Israel to allow its citizens to die for the sake of �goodwill.� Would you expect the United States, or any other country to refrain from defending its citizens for the sake of �goodwill�?

Second, the statement implies that it is the responsibility of Israel and only Israel to demonstrate goodwill. If there is going to be peace, it will require the participation of both the Israelis and the Palestinian-Arabs, and that includes goodwill from the Palestinian-Arabs as well. I would be willing to bet that a serious gesture of goodwill from the Palestinian-Authority such as arresting members of Hamas and Fatah would result in a cessation of the building of the security fence.

Originally posted by MacGonzo

I seem to have written the wrong choice of wordage when I referred to the Palestinians as 'have[ing] no other options', what I should have said is that they feel they have no other options (sorry).

The point is the same. They have other options they choose not to use. They are led by grown educated men who are familiar with the concepts of peaceful negotiation and/or non-violent resistance. Suggesting that they don�t know any better is racism.

Originally posted by MacGonzo
As far as cultural indoctrination, that is true for pretty much all countries in the world, and I feel that doesn't account for all the troubles caused by suicide bombers.

Yes, every country has its own form of cultural indoctrination, but the issue here is the specific nature of the cultural indoctrination. The cultural indoctrination of other countries does not include television shows where children tell other children to kill themselves while murdering others.

Originally posted by MacGonzo
This is a link to an Islamic site, which states that suicide is forbidden by the Qur'an; these suicide bombers are seen as heroes as they are fighting for their families.

This is the same attitude every Muslim I have spoken to has.

There are many Muslims who believe in a peaceful interpretation of Islam. For the most part, they are good people just as anyone who is sincere in their peaceful worship of God is. It is a pity that the ones who preach murder make it harder for those that don�t.

Originally posted by Jakomo
Pure sophistry. Rhetoric. I call it COLLECTIVE PUNISHMENT when you PUNISH a whole society COLLECTIVELY for the actions of it's more militant aspects? Would you care to argue that point?

Absolutely. If the purpose of the wall were not to guard against terrorism, you�re calling it collective punishment would apply. You might look into the history of the term and see if it really applies.

Originally posted by Jakomo
LOL! YEAH! 20% of the population "protected" by the security fence is Arabic! That's hilarious. Arabs living in Israel, do you mean? They need protection from the waves of suicide bombers pouring into Israel every day?

Are you trying to imply that Palestinian-Arabs only target Jews or that nails propelled by a bomb can tell the religion or ethnicity of its target? Wow, that would imply racist and genocidal tendencies on the part of the Palestinian-Arabs. Is that really the point you wish to argue?

Originally posted by Jakomo
I'll tell you, if the Israeli government wasn't so bloodthirsty and STUPID, they'd realize it will take ONE THING to stop Palestinian terror attacks.

Give them HOPE. Hope that they will have a nation, HOPE that they will be masters of their own destiny, HOPE that they will have a democratically elected and internationally accepted PM.

I agree. Where you and I disagree is where that hope should come from. I think it needs to come from the Palestinian-Arab leadership. I think they need leadership willing to work for peace and not constantly push them towards death.

Originally posted by Jakomo
You're living in a fantasy world. Non-violent demonstrations in Gaza or the West Bank become heated when the tanks roll in and the tear gas flies.

So you�re saying they should prefer actions that will lead to their deaths (suicide bombing) over actions that could lead to them getting tear-gassed? How does that make sense?

In the United States students protesting for civil rights or against the Vietnam War were often tear-gassed and beaten by the police or National Guard, that didn�t stop them. If you can gather a crowd to throw rocks, you can certainly gather a crowd to hold hands and sing kum-bah-ya.

Originally posted by Jakomo
Peaceful negotiations are possible, but the Israeli government CONSTANTLY undermines it.

It�s Hamas that most consistently undermines peace negotiations. Can you name any specific thing the Palestinian-Authority has ever done to promote peace?

Originally posted by Jakomo
There is NO dealing with Israel "peacefully" when it comes to the Palestinian crisis. The Israeli's themselves deal VERY heavy-handed with Palestinians, they should expect the return to be true. No?
jakomo

Wow! Is this the true Jakomo coming to the surface at last? No dealing with Israel peacefully? I�m afraid your attitude will never bring peace to Israel.

I defend Israel from unfair criticism, and I remind people that the Palestinian-Arabs also need to play a role in the peace process, but I do believe that both peoples are capable of a peaceful solution to their problems. Take away the corrupt Palestinian-Arab leadership, the Islamic fundamentalism and all that foreign money that goes to support Palestinian-Arab terror, and these peoples would have come to peace long ago.

[Edited on 23-12-2003 by Mycroft]

Originally posted by Mycroft
A Christian martyr is someone who is persecuted and killed for their beliefs. This is very different from the Islamic Shaheed who seeks death while committing murder.

This view in itself shows you to be intolerant of accepting other views. You give no evidence of your claims, yet you deny my statement. Martyrdom is simply dying in the name of your religion. Seeking death in the name of murder is against the Islamic faith.

Originally posted by Mycroft
I do not blame anything on their religious beliefs. Your claim that Palestinian-Arab terrorism is caused by Israeli defense from terrorism is circular logic, and I refute that argument by pointing to specific elements within Palestinian-Arab culture that support and promote terrorism. These cultural elements are promoted by a small group that seeks to perpetuate the violence, not end it.

Yes, it is circular logic, yet it is logical and also representative of the situation on he ground there. I counter your argument with a similar claim against the Israeli government, hence, solidifing my overall argument - that BOTH sides are at fault and BOTH sides need to sort this out.

Originally posted by Mycroft
And yet it is the use of terror that prevents them from having a state. Had they lived up to their obligations under the Oslo accords, a second Palestinian-Arab state would have been created in 1998, and it would be starting its sixth year of existence today.

Again you simplify the situation and blame purely the Palestinians, bear in mind I do not condone the actions of the suicide bombers, and because of this I cannot condone the actions of the Israeli government. I try to present a balanced argument, although due to the majoritably one-sidedness of the posts here, I seem to fall into the 'pro-terrorist' camp, which is just not true.

Originally posted by Mycroft
On what do you base this analysis?

On the simple fact that there have been no suicide bombings since October, and not the direct result of this fence as the fence has been in the process of being built for longer than that, yet the Israelis continue their forays into Palestinian refugee camps with no regard for non-violent Palestinians. This breeds violence and the Israeli know this.

Originally posted by Mycroft
First, stopping suicide bombers is the priority. It is absurd to expect Israel to allow its citizens to die for the sake of �goodwill.� Would you expect the United States, or any other country to refrain from defending its citizens for the sake of �goodwill�?

Exactly, now put yourself in the Palestinians' boots.

Originally posted by Mycroft
Second, the statement implies that it is the responsibility of Israel and only Israel to demonstrate goodwill. If there is going to be peace, it will require the participation of both the Israelis and the Palestinian-Arabs, and that includes goodwill from the Palestinian-Arabs as well. I would be willing to bet that a serious gesture of goodwill from the Palestinian-Authority such as arresting members of Hamas and Fatah would result in a cessation of the building of the security fence.

Finally, you seem to have realized the point I have been trying to put across, and at no point do I state that it is only Israel to blame. I do not condone the actions of the Palestinians, I just feel the need to balance the equation, as the majority of the posts here are in favour of this wall, which I feel is unjustified.

Originally posted by Mycroft
The point is the same. They have other options they choose not to use. They are led by grown educated men who are familiar with the concepts of peaceful negotiation and/or non-violent resistance. Suggesting that they don�t know any better is racism.

The point is not the same. Feeling you have no other options and having no other options are different. I do not suggest that they don't know any better, and how dare you suggest I am being racist, when, as a pale blue Scotsman with no religious ties myself, I feel I am being fair-minded and trying to keep this discussion away from being 'it's the Palestinians' fault', like ALL your posts seem to indicate, and I take it (from your signature) that you yourself are Jewish? I harbour no anti-Semitic feeling, but at the same time I harbour no anti-Islamic feelings either, so how dare you call me racist. If you argued from a balanced perspective and offered proof of your claims, I might be more inclined to believe your stories.

Originally posted by Mycroft
Yes, every country has its own form of cultural indoctrination, but the issue here is the specific nature of the cultural indoctrination. The cultural indoctrination of other countries does not include television shows where children tell other children to kill themselves while murdering others.

Again you offer no evidence to back your preposterous claims. This single statement PROVES that it is not me that is the racist here.

Originally posted by Mycroft
There are many Muslims who believe in a peaceful interpretation of Islam. For the most part, they are good people just as anyone who is sincere in their peaceful worship of God is. It is a pity that the ones who preach murder make it harder for those that don�t.

This, at least we agree on.
What is clear is that opinion will remain divided on this issue. Both sides need to sort this out. To blame one side any more than the other, when both sides commit murder, is a serious double standard, but I digress.
The point of this thread is to discuss the impact of this wall, and while it may be good at stopping suicide bombers, it inflames the CAUSE of suicide bombers, and until this changes, there will be no peace in the area.

The fact is, this wall does not follow accepted boundaries between the two areas. The Israeli have positioned the wall around major water sources that are within Palestinian areas. Is this the action of a peaceful minded leader.
The Palestinians (along with many others in the International Community) have condemned this wall as being provocative, yet you still deny this. Even the UN has condemned this blatant attempt at a land grab.

Here is a balanced report on the issue:

news.bbc.co.uk...

Mycroft: "Wow, that would imply racist and genocidal tendencies on the part of the Palestinian-Arabs."

On Palestinian suicide bombers, perhaps. But, and I've tried to make this point before, ALL PALESTINIANS ARE NOT TERRORISTS. Let's say maybe .5% of the population. How long has it been since the last suicide bombing in Israel? 2 and a half months?

And Palestinian suicide bombing is more an expression of hopelessness and desperation with the continuing humilations of the Illegal Occupation than it is a religious expression.

"I agree. Where you and I disagree is where that hope should come from. I think it needs to come from the Palestinian-Arab leadership. I think they need leadership willing to work for peace and not constantly push them towards death. "

And yet Yasser Arafat, the democratically elected leader of the palestinians, has now been under HOUSE ARREST for over 2 years. Restricted to 2 rooms and unable to leave. Sounds to me like Israel lets Palestinian leaders do their job only if they want to. Otherwise they interfere.

"In the United States students protesting for civil rights or against the Vietnam War were often tear-gassed and beaten by the police or National Guard, that didn�t stop them. If you can gather a crowd to throw rocks, you can certainly gather a crowd to hold hands and sing kum-bah-ya. "

And yet, if a group of students were protesting in the US, and they threw rocks at a tank and the tank returned fire, killing many of them, that would resonate across the whole country and something would be done.

How many Palestinian civilians have been shot to death in the last week? Do you know?

When there's a Palestinian protest, they're protesting the fact that they have no freedom of movement, they have arbitrary curfews, checkpoints that take hours, collective punishment inflicted by bulldozers and APCs and heavily armed soldiers, and daily humiliations of Occupation. These aren't students protesting tuition hikes, they're desperate people trying to make their voices heard.

"Can you name any specific thing the Palestinian-Authority has ever done to promote peace?"

WHY is the onus on the weaker, OCCUPIED force to "promote peace"? It's Israel saying "Make your country, which we illegally occupy and impose martial law on, safer for us" which is ludicrous. Israel can make ISRAEL safer by doing one simple thing. Pull out. Obviously a safer Palestine FOR PALESTINIANS, would be one without IDF tanks and snipers.


I blame both sides for the problem, but I blame Israel MORE, because they hold almost ALL the cards. You never seem to blame Israel at all.

"I defend Israel from unfair criticism, and I remind people that the Palestinian-Arabs also need to play a role in the peace process, but I do believe that both peoples are capable of a peaceful solution to their problems. Take away the corrupt Palestinian-Arab leadership, the Islamic fundamentalism and all that foreign money that goes to support Palestinian-Arab terror, and these peoples would have come to peace long ago."

You imply that if take away "corrupt Palestinian leadership" and the fundamentalism and the foreign money for terrorists then Palestinians would have peace.

?!?! Israel is doing all it can right now to further the peace process?!?! In what bizzarro universe? You don't even suggest one tiny iota of change from Israel. It's the dirty, nasty, brainwashed Palestinian killbots that are to blame!

Sad because it truly shows your totally blinkered view of this issue.

jakomo

I have to agree with you entirely Jakomo. Well said.

www.gush-shalom.org...

I urge everyone to visit this website. Very balanced views from an Israeli Jewish group who are opposed to the actions of its government. No one condones sucide bombing - terrorism in any form and targetting of innocent civilians is WRONG - however, Israel has been committing its atrocities in the occupied areas for too long and unless Sharon adopts a more balanced, less hawkish position, the cycle of violence will sadly continue, and innocent people on both sides of the divide will suffer.

Gentlemen,

I find myself short on time so I can not respond to every point mentioned here, though I promise to get back to it later. For the moment, I will respond to just one factual error that I can clear up quickly:

MacGonzo says:

Originally posted by MacGonzo
On the simple fact that there have been no suicide bombings since October, and not the direct result of this fence as the fence has been in the process of being built for longer than that, yet the Israelis continue their forays into Palestinian refugee camps with no regard for non-violent Palestinians. This breeds violence and the Israeli know this.

And then Jakomo says:

Originally posted by Jakomo
On Palestinian suicide bombers, perhaps. But, and I've tried to make this point before, ALL PALESTINIANS ARE NOT TERRORISTS. Let's say maybe .5% of the population. How long has it been since the last suicide bombing in Israel? 2 and a half months?

First, I will point out the logical inconsistency of characterizing suicide-bombings as being the actions of lone individuals and then pointing to the lack of suicide-bombings as being evidence of Palestinian-Arab good faith. You can not simultaneously claim that the Palestinian-Arab leadership does and does not control these terrorists. May I ask that the two of you figure out which one you believe and then be consistent from now on?

Second, I will point out that the lack of successful suicide bombings is not evidence of Palestinian-Arab good faith. The IDF works very hard at preventing these actions and they are very good at their job. For the most part, the media only reports successful attacks, the ones that are prevented go unreported. It takes very careful reading to get a true picture. For every successful attack, there may be 20 or more that are prevented.

Islamic Jihad and Tanzim are now initiating most of the suicide bombing attempts against Israeli civilians, Brig.-Gen. Yossi Kupperwasser, head of the Intelligence Corps research department, informed the Knesset Foreign Affairs and Defense Committee on Tuesday.
Hamas, on the other hand, has now decided to focus on targets within Gaza Strip and the West Bank, he said. One explanation for this change in tactic, he said, is that Hamas is being influenced by the feelings among its public that terrorism against civilians in Israel is not being beneficial to the group.
Twenty-five suicide bombing attempts have been made in the past few months, with the attack on the Maxim restaurant in Haifa the only one that was not foiled by the security forces, he said.

www.jpost.com.../JPArticle/ShowFull%26cid=1070942847269

There. The relative �calm� that is enjoyed now is not the result of any Palestinian-Arab goodwill, but the result of diligence on the part of the IDF. MacGonzo, since you base your analysis of the situation on erroneous information, are you willing to reconsider it now?


[Edited on 23-12-2003 by Mycroft]

Mycroft: "First, I will point out the logical inconsistency of characterizing suicide-bombings as being the actions of lone individuals and then pointing to the lack of suicide-bombings as being evidence of Palestinian-Arab good faith. You can not simultaneously claim that the Palestinian-Arab leadership does and does not control these terrorists. May I ask that the two of you figure out which one you believe and then be consistent from now on?"

Suicide bombers ARE lone individuals. They are usually tied to Palestinian militant groups like Hamas, but they are NOT representatives of Palestinians as a whole. If you could look beyond your prejudice you would see I have a point.

The Palestinians can never win in your black and white world. There haven't been any attacks in israel in 3 months, and yet you completely deny that this was due to any Palestinian action. The reason you give as to why there's been no suicide attacks is that the IDF has been stopping them. It's a little disheartening, since you seem to be a smart person, but pretty mind-numbingly racist when it comes to giving Palestinians any credit for ANYTHING.

For the record, I believe that suicide bombers ARE lone individuals, who have completely given up, and are recruited by militants who goad them into suicide attacks.

And the reason they become suicide bombers is because Israel has illegally occupied their homes for over 30 years with no end in sight. Israel is the REASON for these suicide bombings because of the way they treat Palestinians, that's the bottom line. If you push and push and humiliate and degrade people enough, they will eventually snap."

"Second, I will point out that the lack of successful suicide bombings is not evidence of Palestinian-Arab good faith. The IDF works very hard at preventing these actions and they are very good at their job. For the most part, the media only reports successful attacks, the ones that are prevented go unreported. It takes very careful reading to get a true picture. For every successful attack, there may be 20 or more that are prevented."

Pardon me if I laughed all the way through your transparent propaganda. I like your use of "for the most part" and "there MAY be 20 or more that are prevented" because there is actually no factual basis to your argument, it's guesses and conjecture.


jakomo

Whichever way you look at it, the plain hard truth is that the wall works. Suicide bombings which were an almost daily occurence have now stopped. Innocent civilians are not losing their lives to wanton acts of misguided martyrdom.
The wall might be distasteful but it does it's job extremely well.

And at the end of the day, if your family were under threat of death and you had such a simple and effective way to protect them, wouldn't you use it?

It's fine for the pro-Palestinians to say that the wall shouldn't be there but the very fact that it works makes their protestations nothing more than hot air. All they can do to retaliate is move the subject to other developments in the Israeli/Palestinian conflict. Well, sorry. This thread is about the wall. And whether you like it or not, it saves civilian lives.

Leveller: "And whether you like it or not, it saves civilian lives."

Israeli's lives. Israelis living illegally on Palestinian land. And it annexes more land, but you and Mycroft and your Zionist cronies will totally gloss over this because it doesn't fit in your "Israel is Super and never does anything remotely wrong" world.

news.bbc.co.uk...

"UN satellites eye Israeli barrier
By Alfred Hermida
BBC News Online technology correspondent

The UN is keeping a close eye from space on the path of Israel's controversial West Bank barrier.
It is using satellites to take images of the 700km (435 miles) barrier which cuts across Palestinian territory.

The aim is to offer clear geographical data on a politically-charged issue.

"It is evident by looking at this wall on the satellite imagery to see the damage done to Palestinian villages that are getting trapped," said Alain Retiere of the UN's satellite agency....

... But reality that has emerged from the data gathered by the UN agency may not please Israel.

"There is an increasing degree of consciousness that this wall is not just about security," said Mr Retiere.

"When you see the maps, you see there that this is more than just about ensuring security."

However, he believes the work can make a positive contribution to peace negotiations taking place against a background of fear and mistrust.

The UN agency points to past cases where satellite imagery has helped to solve disputes over land, such as in El Salvador and in Nicaragua.

"What we are trying modestly to contribute is to make as many people as possible aware about the existence of satellite imagery as a resource," explained Mr Retiere.

"The more people know about this, the more we will avoid the tricking of the information which has been an obstacle for conflict resolution for centuries.""

The Wall is racist and illegal.

Originally posted by Jakomo
Suicide bombers ARE lone individuals. They are usually tied to Palestinian militant groups like Hamas, but they are NOT representatives of Palestinians as a whole. If you could look beyond your prejudice you would see I have a point.

They are representative of the Palestinian-Arab leadership, who not only refuses to crack down on them but actively encourages them. Suggesting that I said they represent all Palestinian-Arabs is just a straw-man argument, you can do better.

Originally posted by Jakomo
The Palestinians can never win in your black and white world. There haven't been any attacks in israel in 3 months, and yet you completely deny that this was due to any Palestinian action. The reason you give as to why there's been no suicide attacks is that the IDF has been stopping them. It's a little disheartening, since you seem to be a smart person, but pretty mind-numbingly racist when it comes to giving Palestinians any credit for ANYTHING.

You used to be more rational in our debates, at least willing to look at the information I posted. There have been plenty of attacks in the last three months, there have not been any successful attacks. I don�t know what it says about you that you equate not succeeding in an attack with not attacking. Show me something to give them credit for and I will.

Originally posted by Jakomo
For the record, I believe that suicide bombers ARE lone individuals, who have completely given up, and are recruited by militants who goad them into suicide attacks.

Once they are recruited by militants, they are no longer lone individuals.

Originally posted by JakomoAnd the reason they become suicide bombers is because Israel has illegally occupied their homes for over 30 years with no end in sight. Israel is the REASON for these suicide bombings because of the way they treat Palestinians, that's the bottom line. If you push and push and humiliate and degrade people enough, they will eventually snap."

Let�s hope they snap against the terrorists that are perpetuating this violence.

Originally posted by Jakomo
Pardon me if I laughed all the way through your transparent propaganda. I like your use of "for the most part" and "there MAY be 20 or more that are prevented" because there is actually no factual basis to your argument, it's guesses and conjecture.

Sigh! Let me quote the information again, will you read it this time?

Twenty-five suicide bombing attempts have been made in the past few months, with the attack on the Maxim restaurant in Haifa the only one that was not foiled by the security forces, he said.

[Edited on 23-12-2003 by Mycroft]

[Edited on 23-12-2003 by Mycroft]

Originally posted by Jakomo

Leveller: "And whether you like it or not, it saves civilian lives."

Israeli's lives.

Wether you like it or not, they're civilian lives.
Of course, extremists like yourself would like to see the total destruction of Israel and the death of every Jew but there are those of us who abhor the death of innocents whichever side they are on.
I couldn't give a flying # wether the wall saves Jewish or Palestinian lives. The fact remains that the people it does protect are innocent.
Go play your extremist anti-Jew bull# game elsewhere.

Jak:
"The Palestinians can never win in your black and white world."

Jak....
In your very lucid "black and white world", with all its false humanitarian efforts, the Palestinians will never win till they end the cycle of violence. If the Palestinians were to stop the suicide bombings, the violence would end...simple as that. Think not? Then let me ask you this: If the Israelis stopped using their military, would the suicide bombings stop?

You and others continue to spout and support that the Palestinians have the right to "suicide bomb" Israel because of the supposed "illegal occupations"/illegal settlements. How long has this excuse been chimed? Israel continues and has, for some time, offered such consessions. How are they rewarded? With continued suicide bombings and the continued "give back our 'occupied' lands".

Suicide bombings requires no special skills or agilities. Isn't it presumed or assumed that any Palestinian, regardless of age, could walk into a plaza or congested street and blow themselves up. Question: Why is it mainly the young Palestinians that are doing the suicide bombings? Could it be that it takes more than despair and hopelessness to become a suicide bomber? Why is it that the older Palestinians aren't being so easily gulled by that same despair and hopelessness that provokes the young Palestinians? Could it be that the older Palestinians are not so easily swayed or influenced by brainwashing and propaganda? Seems that "someone" or some "group(s)" are taking the young Palestinians and are inculcating them with an absurd hatred for Jews and glorification of 'martyrdom' or acts of 'mass murder' to solve their political problems. Suicide bombings are not acts of impulse; they are carefully cultivated acts of malicious intent. People who use 'mass murder' or murder, in general, to advocate political change need to redefine their positions.

Isn't it strange how many define 'tyranny' (as with the case of the so-called democratically elected Yassir Arafat) and oppression.....radical Muslim or Palestinian style? Its old hat isn't it? I mean the Germans/Nazis defined it with ZYKLON B....while the radical Muslim or Palestinian is defining it today as C4 Plastique. Whats further interesting in this is that they all need a scapegoat for their pathological beliefs and indoctrinations: the Jews. But as par, its not enough to blame and condemn Jews. Killing them is the only "right" from 'wrong', the only real response, the only real solution.

"THE REAL CAUSE FOR LACK OF MIDDLE EAST PEACE"
Link:
www.cdn-friends-icej.ca...



I mean geezus, seems many of you agree with Arafat and the Palestinian "causes". AM I viewing your statements wrong...skewed? Lets review just what Arafats "goals" and pathological idealogies are:

"We Palestinians will take over everything, including all of Jerusalem....All the rich Jews who will get compensation will travel to America....We of the PLO will now concentrate all our efforts on splitting Israel psychologically into two camps. Within five years we will have six to seven million Arabs living in the West Bank and in Jerusalem....You understand that we plan to eliminate the State of Israel and establish a purely Palestinian State....I have no use for Jews; they are and remain Jews."

Yassir Arafat in a statement given in 1996
"Yasser Arafat, January 30, 1996, (Speech) "The Impending Total Collapse of Israel," Stockholm, Sweden (1,2)"
Link:
www.geocities.com...




regards
seekerof

[Edited on 23-12-2003 by Seekerof]