Security Fence proves its worth

Let's see who is on what side, shall we?

news.bbc.co.uk...

That's not too hard to figure, now is it.

And if this isn't sidelined by a "crisis" or something,
we will see what the world says.

www.abc.net.au...

In all those condemnations and UN Resolutions against Israel...has the UN condemned once the Palestinian suicide acts? No ruling from the World Court on suicide bombings?
Interesting that the World Court, which embodies 15 UN appointed judges, as with the UN, has always leaned in favor of the Arab side...?

Ask Bulgaria, 1957, if they have yet to accept the authority of the World Court. The only thing that will make any "opinion" offered by the World Court, will be Sharon's word that he would comply...and all that "opinion" will state is that Israel must halt construction. Its self-evident that the UN appointed judges of the World Court will, with some abstaining within its member judges, give "opinion" that the Wall must be surely halted....thats inevitable.

Personally, bring the Wall back within the confines of the "Green Line', address some of the humanitarian issues it raises, and I have no problemo with what Israel is doing, in regards to the before mentioned Wall.

UN condemnation should work two ways but it doesn't in respect to Israel.
Despite this, change will come:

"Campaign launched to make suicide bombings crimes against humanity"
Link:
www.bocaratonnews.com...

Holding accountable all groups and organization that recruit or deploy homicide and suicide bombers/bombings should be made into a international law (crimes against humanity) and be appropriately punished.....but then again.....it will be enforced by who.....the UN, the World Court?



regards
seekerof

I did promise to come back and respond to points I hadn�t before. In going over them, I see little of substance that needs a response, but there are a few more comments I would make.

MacGonzo:

I�m not sure what you feel my religion may have to do with this argument. Whatever I say will stand on its own merits regardless of faith or denomination. My signature is a result of a previous conversation on the merits of using Israeli news sources versus Arab news sources.

Racism is not limited to just hatred of a specific race or people. Holding them to different standards of behavior or expectations also qualifies. In this discussion, you have claimed that the Palestinian-Arabs feel that they have no alternatives to suicide-terrorism when clearly they do. I believe this very low expectation of them would be insulting if applied to another group. We can and should expect civilized behavior from Palestinian-Arabs, to do otherwise is anti-Arab racism.

You have also claimed that Israel should not build the wall because it does not create �goodwill� with the Palestinian-Arabs. Placing �goodwill� over the lives of your citizenry is irrational. Unless you can honestly say you would counsel another nation to allow its citizens to die for the sake of �goodwill�, I would say that you are applying a double-standard that also has its roots in prejudice.

I do not claim that you hate either Arab or Jew, but I do suggest that you give some thought as to your expectations of them.

On the issue of the Islamic religion, I too am friends with Muslims who do not condone suicide-terror, but Islam is a large religion with upwards of a billion followers worldwide. Just as Christianity has a variety of denominations and practices, so does Islam. The important issue here is not the interpretation of Islam followed by your friends or represented on any web site, but the interpretation of Islam followed by those who perpetuate terrorist actions. If they believe that blowing themselves up in the murder of innocents will make them a Shaheed then it doesn�t matter if you claim that goes against Islamic teachings.

On documenting my sources. Being new to this board, you are probably unaware that Jakomo has been waging an anti-Israel campaign for months. Every few days he starts a new thread with some new smear tactic, and the argument begins again. We have been over this a lot, so you would not be aware of issues that have already been discussed and documented.

Check out this site for more information on Shahids and Palestinian-Arab media support for child-terror. If you have other issues you would like information on, let me know.

www.pmw.org.il...

Jakomo:

Why is the onus on the Palestinian-Arabs? One simple answer that I�ve already said before: If there is to be peace between these peoples, it will require the participation of both sides. So far, Israel has made many offers, many concessions, and the Palestinian-Arabs have done nothing. After Oslo, when Israel withdrew from major Palestinian-Arab cities, recognized the PLO, and spent a bunch of money arming the Palestinian-Arab security force so that they could fight terror, the Palestinian-Arabs responded by doing exactly nothing to fight terror (their only obligation) and the Israeli death rate from terrorism doubled. This proves that granting concessions without real guarantees (not just empty promises) of security leads to more violence, not less.

Also, you�re a hypocrite for saying I never blame Israel for anything and never give the Palestinian-Arabs credit for anything while you wage an evangelical crusade against Israel. Maybe siding with Arafat and his crew for so long has affected your thinking so that makes sense to you.

Also, to your claim that Palestinian-Arab terror is caused by Israeli occupation, did you know that for all the misery they suffer now that life was worse under Jordanian rule? When Israel took the West Bank, they spent billions digging new sewers and laying new water lines so they could have clean water. They installed electricity, built hospitals, roads and schools. Since the occupation, Palestinian-Arab literacy rates have risen so that they are comparable to the western world, as has their health care and life expectancy. Before the Intifada, the economic opportunities provided by the occupation (jobs and trade) gave the Palestinian-Arabs a standard of living that was better than any of the neighboring Arabic states, and their birth rate is now among the highest in the world, with one of the lowest infant mortality rates.

That�s not bad for being the victims of a �genocidal� occupation.

Mycroft: "They are representative of the Palestinian-Arab leadership"

That's the singlemost idiotic thing I have ever read on this site. Suicide bombers are representative of the Palestinian-Arab leadership!? Are bloodthristy settlers who burn down Palestinian olive groves and take potshots at Palestinian farmers representative of the Sharon government? Suicide bombers have NOTHING to do with the Palestinian leadership. The Palestinian leadership would like nothing better than to stop ALL attacks, but a lot of it is due to offshoot militant groups who have their own agenda. Your assertion is beyond ludricrous.

"Once they are recruited by militants, they are no longer lone individuals."

Naw, they are just given the tools and maybe the preferred location by fundamentalist wackos and then set loose. It's still a lone individual who performs the ultimate act.

Oh and nice quote. Don't bother with stories like this if you can ONLY find them on a .il site and NOWHERE else on the entire net.

"Twenty-five suicide bombing attempts have been made in the past few months. The attack on the Maxim restaurant in Haifa was the only one not foiled by the security forces."


www.mfa.gov.il...


I'm sure there's some way to corroborate this. Aw, wait, since there's actually no international press access to IDF raids in the West Bank and Gaza refugee camps allowed, I guess we'll just have to take the Israeli government's word for it. I'm sure there are names or incident reports on exactly how these suicide attacks were foiled, right? Somewhere?

As to "So far, Israel has made many offers, many concessions, and the Palestinian-Arabs have done nothing.": Israel has made small concessions in the past, please bring one up that's valid, I know of none in the last 6 years.

To me it's common sense to say that if you take away the tools of oppression (the occupation, the tanks, the checkpoints, the curfews, etc), then Palestinian militants would NOT continue sucidie attacks. Why? Because they'd have a damn country to build instead of an occupying power to skirmish with. They'd have everyday NORMAL HUMAN LIVES to handle. Go to work, earn a living, go home to the family, etc. There would possibly be a few stragglers who would want to suicide bomb Israel, but having a strong government with ACTUAL power (hey, even an army to enforce law), the Palestinians could do far more to curb extremists than they have now, with little to no infrastructure.

Leveller: I criticize Israeli POLICY, not the existence or the people of Israel. Call me an "extremist anti-Jew (c) " all you like, it just shows that you actually have no VALID point to argue, and like an 8 year old, I guess you think it's best to resort to name-calling. Well it ain't, and I'm not.


jakomo

Originally posted by Jakomo

Leveller: I criticize Israeli POLICY, not the existence or the people of Israel. Call me an "extremist anti-Jew (c) " all you like, it just shows that you actually have no VALID point to argue, and like an 8 year old, I guess you think it's best to resort to name-calling. Well it ain't, and I'm not.

No, you criticize ALL policy that doesn't go your way or fit with your anti-Jewish agenda.

Time and time again it has been pointed out that the cycle of violence would stop if the Palestinians reigned in their terror organizations. Arafat simply refuses to do this and you make excuses for him like some tired old apologist.

Time and time again, Israel has come to the negotiating table but then had to endure acts of atrocity on her innocents whilst yet again you make excuses.

Time and time again, the Palestinian leadership has played a political game with people's lives to ensure power for a few people whilst yet again you try to divert blame elsewhere.

Time and time again, it has been pointed out and proven that there are extremist groups whose sole aim is to destroy the State of Israel and that these are being funded and nurtured by the PA yet you oh so very conveniently turn a blind eye.

Guess who doesn't have the valid argument?

Leveller: "Time and time again, Israel has come to the negotiating table but then had to endure acts of atrocity on her innocents whilst yet again you make excuses. "

Time and time again I hear the same tired old claptrap. WHAT has Israel brought to the negotiating table that is a REAL, ACTUAL way to stop the cycle of violence.

"Acts of atrocity on her innocents". Cry me a frickin river... Acts of atrocity are commited on Palestinians all day every day, those "acts" trump any of yours. Systematic punishment of an entire culture, etc.

"Time and time again, the Palestinian leadership has played a political game with people's lives to ensure power for a few people whilst yet again you try to divert blame elsewhere. "

Again you throw out some vague generalities. The Palestinian leadership is playing a political game with people's lives while BULLDOZERS and TANKS, care of Ariel Sharon, DESTROY people's houses and take away their livelihoods. I wish I could say it's OBVIOUSLY total overkill (5th strongest military in the world daily harassing a 3rd world country, meting out collective punishment on REFUGEE CAMPS), but it would seem that even if something is right in front of you, you don't see it.

"Time and time again, it has been pointed out and proven that there are extremist groups whose sole aim is to destroy the State of Israel and that these are being funded and nurtured by the PA yet you oh so very conveniently turn a blind eye. "

And this makes it perfectly cool to kill Palestinian children with sniper bullets, demolish apartment complexes, fire missiles into heavy traffic, and generally slaughter as many civilians as possible without looking like you're specifically targetting them.

"Guess who doesn't have the valid argument?"

I don't have to guess. The answer is you.

Israel's policies about the Palestinians don't work, and until they try something radically different, more people will die on both sides, needlessly.

I KNOW that I will be proven right on all these points in time. Because eventually Israel is going to have to admit that they're effing things up. Look at how many people in the military are now refusing to serve in the West Bank and Gaza. That's only the first step.


jako

Originally posted by Jakomo


Time and time again I hear the same tired old claptrap. WHAT has Israel brought to the negotiating table that is a REAL, ACTUAL way to stop the cycle of violence.

Do you live under a rock?

The US endorse the Roadmap.
The whole world endorses the Roadmap.
The UN endorses the Roadmap.
Israel endorses the Roadmap.

The Palestinians won't even adhere to the first article on it.

So to answer your question: "WHAT has Israel brought to the negotiating table that is a REAL, ACTUAL way to stop the cycle of violence."
The answer is the Roadmap.
Of course there is bound to be some excuse from you as to why the Palestinians won't keep their end of the bargain and let the process begin, but hell, that's only to be expected.

Jak:
"I KNOW that I will be proven right on all these points in time. Because eventually Israel is going to have to admit that they're effing things up."

Let me share just "who" is "effing" up: The Palestinians!
How many times has Israel offered and agreed to a two-state solution? Does 1937, 1947, and 2000-2001 and now the current "RoadMap 2003-2004" ring any bells for ya.....? How many times have the Palestinians ignored, refused and abandoned the two-state solutions? Three times Jak, and it looks like it will soon be four!!

Even your beloved fellow organization: Amnesty Interantional, as with the UN, has failed the test of even-handedness by falsely....thats right....falsely claiming that no Palestinian minor has ever been involved in a suicide bombing and that the Israeli Army "targets" innocent Palestinian children. All this and never, never once condemning Palestian authority, Hamas, Hezbollah, Arafat for the suicide bombings that continue today to kill Israeli innocent children. You spout nothing but continued Amnesty International propaganda and false agendas.

Oh look!!.......Tibet is still occupied by China! Where is the UN condemnation of this? Where is the hankered cry of Amnesty International? For 50+ years China has committed human rights violations in Tibet! For 50+ years China has flooded Tibet with so many ethnic Chinese that the Tibetans have become the minority in thier own nation! And despite all the horrendous acts and records, the UN, along with Amnesty International, has never once condemned China or recognized the rights of Tibetans to self-determination.....but you steadily scream and preach it for Palestine? Hypocrite!

Why don't we reward Israel with the 2012 Olympics? I mean, geeeeeeeeeeee, the international community is/has rewarded/ing China with the 2008 Olympics!!! But yet again, you and others still preach on the Palestinian causes and never, NEVER once mention that the Tibetan cause is a far more compelling issue and more deserving of Independence! How about the Armenians, the Chechens, the Basques, and dozens of other stateless, let me re-emphasize that, stateless groups, none of which have observer status at the United Nations or recognition by so many states or religious groups as the Palestinians do! Hey!!! Moreover, none of these above mentioned "other" groups have been offered statehood even once. Hell, they haven't even had one opportunity to reject IT on multiple occasions!!

I predict you this Jak:
Palestine and the Palestinians will gain a state and become independent, BUT Palestinian terrorism will not end on Israel. You have never once noted or commented that Palestinian terrorism pre-dated the "occupation", before the West Bank and Gaza becoming occupied, as a tactic of choice. The Palestinians cannot be trusted now and will not be able to be trusted when the gain statehood! Palestine will become a nation and be assured, when they do....it will become no different then it is today without a state: HELL......
Palestine will continue the systematic idealogical programs of 'maytrdom' against Jews and Israel...because once statehood is given, it will not be "good enough".....they will continue to push and cry for more...that "more" being the expulsion and destruction of the nation of Israel.....deny that, while you continue to wage your skewed, hate filled, propaganda spillage against Israel!


regards
seekerof

[Edited on 24-12-2003 by Seekerof]