Security Fence proves its worth

NETANYA, Israel, Dec. 5 (UPI) -- Aliza Hazan was thrilled. Three times that afternoon she had walked up and down Netanya's main street from the outdoor cafes by the seashore to a shopping mall near the main entrance to town. They are more than a mile apart.

Both had been targets of deadly terrorist attacks and Hazan marveled at the city's signs of recovery. "You see more people in the streets! ... All the shops are open! ... People are eating in restaurants!" she said.
...
The atmosphere changed after Israel built a formidable security barrier, at the edge of the West Bank, 10 miles east of Netanya.

For all the controversy around it, it works.

www.washingtontimes.com...

I don't think the furore is over it not working, that it certinaly does, but over the fact that it makes inroads on traditional palastinian land.

I think its a good idea, but I wonder why they had to pick themselves a fight by taking so much of the Palastinain land to make it.

In all honesty, I think a good portion of the furor is because it does work. A good portion of those that object to it object to any defensive measure Israel takes.

Many sources exaggerate the amount of land it takes, check out the following map:

www.honestreporting.com...

Also, the argument that it takes Palestinian-Arab land presumes that the land belongs to the Palestinian-Arabs. That hasn�t been negotiated yet, and the primary reason for building the fence is the failure of the Palestinian-Arabs to resolve the terror issues that impede peace.

Yeah you got a point there, I notice that where the barrier does deviate from the green line, its mostly to secure water resources - water is like gold there...

Originally posted by Netchicken
Yeah you got a point there, I notice that where the barrier does deviate from the green line, its mostly to secure water resources - water is like gold there...

You do make a good point. I'd like to learn more about the water issue, but so far I haven't found any sources that are not polemic.

Haha, yeah it's a great thing for when an Israeli wants to go shopping.

But quite a different story for a Palestinian who needs to wait at a checkpoint daily for 2 hours to find out if he/she can cross and go to work, or if they are turned back.

But hey, as long as some good Jews can get a good day's shopping in, I'm sure Palestinians can understand. What do they want, freedom to move around? Pfah.

The fence may have proved its worth from the Isaraeli point of view, but people need to remember there are two sides to every story (at least).
Control of the water supplies in the Middle East is one of the most contentious issues in the region, and is another reason the Palestinians feel commited to terrorist attacks.
Here is a BBC story on the issue:

news.bbc.co.uk...

In 1991, the Secretary-General of the UN, Boutros Boutros Ghali, stated that 'the next war in the Middle East will be over water and not politics' (source: 'The Oldest Threat: Water in the Middle East, Jane's Intelligence Review, Feb 1998).
The primary areas of conflict over water are the Jordan river basin, the West Bank ground aquifers and the Golan Heights.
Other powers bordering the area are adding to the tension, like Turkeys dam building projects, which will reduce the water supplies of the Tigris and Euphrates rivers, the major water sources for both Iraq and Syria.

A wee pdf about the roots of the water conflicts:

Oops, seems it didn't work
Try this:

www.mideastweb.org...

A BBC story about the Ilisu Dam in Turkey:

news.bbc.co.uk...

Protests in Britain and abroad have caused several companies to pull out of the construction projects, but there are always others (usually subsidiaries of said companies) ready to take over.

www.mtcp.co.uk...

This is a topic which is usually glossed over or ignored by the majority of the media, who prefer to run stories about which celebrity is p***ed of at which other celebrity or some such nonsense.
There is not enough focus on this issue as it is one of the most highly contentious issue in the region.

[Edited on 22-12-2003 by MacGonzo]

But hey, as long as some good Jews can get a good day's shopping in, I'm sure Palestinians can understand. What do they want, freedom to move around? Pfah.

Maybe if they wouldn't strap bombs to themselves constantly, and purposefully blow up a bunch of civilians, they might find their freedom less restricted...no?

I've said it before, and I'll say it again... I don't care how bad things are, there is NO justification of terrorism. If you want something politically, you either go to war (soldier to soldier), or you talk it out and negotiate it, like civilized people. Terrorism is the tool of animals. If they wish to continue to behave like such animals, then they will be penned up and treated as such. If that palestinian really wants to go to work, maybe he should decry the palestinian terrorists, whose actions are restricing his movement, instead of cheering them on in the streets, eh?

Let's just call the Wall "collective punishment" and be done with it.

The entire world, other than the US, finds it racist and distasteful.

Yes, I agree, the wall should never have been built. Just look at Berlin and how happy everyone was when that came down (if there are many peeps out there old enough ).
The reason (one of them) that Palestinians want to blow themselves up is the same reason (ultimately) that G.W. Bush invaded Iraq. SECURITY.
One thing to remember is that you have to be pretty desparate to feel the need to blow yourself into pate. I've met a great many people who follow Islam, and NONE of them feel that terrorism (as we in the West call it) is the right thing to do, but they all sympathize with the reasons why these people do these acts of violence.

They have no other options.

Israel does not recognize Palestine, neither do any of the surrounding nations, because to do so would simply start a war in the region which would only stop when one side or the other is wiped off the face of the Earth.

One man's freedom fighter is anothers terrorist.
William Wallace is one of Scotlands greatest heroes, he was a terrorist in his day.

Remember, EVERY story has more than one point of view...

[Edited on 22-12-2003 by MacGonzo]

you either go to war (soldier to soldier), or you talk it out and negotiate it, like civilized people.

That's why Britain and America dropped so many cluster bombs in civilian regions, which are still causing casualties (both in Iraq and Bosnia) to this day (three were found in a families back garden). Thats why Britain and America dump their nuclear waste in other countries in the form of 'depleted urainium' shells, which burn spreading millions of radioactive particles across the surface of the landscape, entering rivers and the food chain as a result.

[Edited on 22-12-2003 by MacGonzo]

Originally posted by Jakomo

Let's just call the Wall "collective punishment" and be done with it.

Sure, if you think word definitions should be determined by political agenda. I personally think we should resist such Orwelian language manipulation.

Originally posted by JakomoThe entire world, other than the US, finds it racist and distasteful.

Distasteful perhaps, but racist? 20% of the population protected by the security fence is Arabic. Most of the victims of the bombing at the Maxim restaurant were Arabic. I think that if you ask the Israeli-Arabs they will tell you they don�t appreciate being blown up by suicide-bombers any more than Israeli-Jews do.

One can and should sympathize with the Palestinian-Arabs, but in doing so one should not forget to recognize the self-inflicted nature of their misery. The security fence is there to prevent terror, and it works. The best way to bring it down and prevent further construction is to do something about the reason for its construction.

Nothing like apartheid.

Yeah, the Berlin wall worked pretty good too. They should have saved the pieces and moved it to Isreal.

Originally posted by MacGonzo
The reason (one of them) that Palestinians want to blow themselves up is the same reason (ultimately) that G.W. Bush invaded Iraq. SECURITY.
One thing to remember is that you have to be pretty desparate to feel the need to blow yourself into pate.

You and I would have to be pretty desperate to blow ourselves up, and it�s easy for us to project our values and beliefs onto people of another cultures and make assumptions about their motivations, but that sort of reasoning is pretty shallow and will often get you into trouble when you actually have to deal with people of other cultures.

The Palestinian-Arabs live in a culture that glorifies suicide-terror. In their mosques their clerics glorify Shaheeds or martyrs, and they are told that to die in this way is a fast-track into heaven, bypassing judgment for any earthly sins. Their political leaders openly praise the suicide terrorists and Arafat pays money to the organizations that recruit them. In their schools and shops pictures of suicide terrorists are displayed prominently and streets and hospitals are often named for them.. The families of suicide-terrorists have their debts paid off from money donated by foreign governments and they receive a continuing pension. The Palestinian-Authority has even aired television programs where children 10-12 years old are encouraged to talk about their aspirations to become martyrs.

It�s not desperation that leads to such atrocities, it�s cultural indoctrination.

Originally posted by MacGonzo
I've met a great many people who follow Islam, and NONE of them feel that terrorism (as we in the West call it) is the right thing to do, but they all sympathize with the reasons why these people do these acts of violence.

It�s fine to sympathize with people, but if one does not condone terrorism, one should also encourage them to choose other options.

Originally posted by MacGonzoThey have no other options.

And this is where you�re wrong. They do have other options. Those options include, but are not limited to non-violent resistance and peaceful negotiations.

Originally posted by MacGonzo
One man's freedom fighter is anothers terrorist.

And if they limited their terrorism to military targets, and if their goals were independence, I�d have no problem in calling them freedom fighters. Since they instead target civilians I think that comparing them to freedom fighters is an insult to actual freedom fighters.

I don't think it is fair to blame all this onto their religious beliefs. Christianity also honours their martyrs, as much as Islam does. Fundamentalism within a religion is a negative thing, regardless of which religion you follow.
Some of their religious leaders may promote the use of suicide bomber, etc., to further their ends, but they are only using and feeding the sentioment of the people. Don't forget that both sides in this war, for it is such, have commited attrocities, the Israelis are no angels. The Palestinians have no state, and hence, no standing army, and as a result it is impossible for them to meet the Israeli soldier on similar terms.
The fact remains, if BOTH sides don't pull back from the brink and sort this out sensibly, the bloodshed on both sides will continue. There has been many political schemes and lies from both sides, and neither side really wants peace, perhaps the people want peace, but the politicians are either unwilling or unable to cement any deal. The wall may be good at stopping suicide bombers, but it will not create any feeling of goodwill between these nations.
I seem to have written the wrong choice of wordage when I referred to the Palestinians as 'have[ing] no other options', what I should have said is that they feel they have no other options (sorry).
As far as cultural indoctrination, that is true for pretty much all countries in the world, and I feel that doesn't account for all the troubles caused by suicide bombers.

This is a link to an Islamic site, which states that suicide is forbidden by the Qur'an; these suicide bombers are seen as heroes as they are fighting for their families.

islam.about.com...

This is the same attitude every Muslim I have spoken to has.

[Edited on 22-12-2003 by MacGonzo]

Mycroft: "Sure, if you think word definitions should be determined by political agenda. I personally think we should resist such Orwelian language manipulation."

Pure sophistry. Rhetoric. I call it COLLECTIVE PUNISHMENT when you PUNISH a whole society COLLECTIVELY for the actions of it's more militant aspects? Would you care to argue that point?

"Distasteful perhaps, but racist? 20% of the population protected by the security fence is Arabic. "

LOL! YEAH! 20% of the population "protected" by the security fence is Arabic! That's hilarious. Arabs living in Israel, do you mean? They need protection from the waves of suicide bombers pouring into Israel every day?

I'll tell you, if the Israeli government wasn't so bloodthirsty and STUPID, they'd realize it will take ONE THING to stop Palestinian terror attacks.

Give them HOPE. Hope that they will have a nation, HOPE that they will be masters of their own destiny, HOPE that they will have a democratically elected and internationally accepted PM.

Instead, they're given a steady supply of humiliation.

"And this is where you�re wrong. They do have other options. Those options include, but are not limited to non-violent resistance and peaceful negotiations. "

You're living in a fantasy world. Non-violent demonstrations in Gaza or the West Bank become heated when the tanks roll in and the tear gas flies.

Peaceful negotiations are possible, but the Israeli government CONSTANTLY undermines it.

There is NO dealing with Israel "peacefully" when it comes to the Palestinian crisis. The Israeli's themselves deal VERY heavy-handed with Palestinians, they should expect the return to be true. No?

jakomo

Some Western demonstrators have tried the non-aggression route, and one American woman was driven over by an Israeli bulldozer and killed.
Another British man was shot by a sniper while protecting Palestinian children, so it is true to say that the Israeli troops are causing just as much terror as the Palestinians. As a result, I cannot justifiably call judgement on the Palestinians. If the Israeli stop their terror attacks on civilians, then I will condemn these suicide bombers.

www.ccmep.org...

www.islamonline.net...

www.distanceeddesign.com...

I watched the footage of the incident, while it didn't show the actual shot, it recorded the events perfectly, and at the present moment the young mans' mother is trying to get justice for her son's murder.

news.bbc.co.uk...



[Edited on 22-12-2003 by MacGonzo]

I agree that the wall is collective punishment. I don't have a problem with that. Isn't the murder of Israeli civilians by suicide bombers "collective punishment" as well? It is..... The Palastinains have no moral ground to object over the wall.

The problem here is the fact that the Israeli military attacks on Palestinian civilians (as they have no national military, hence they are insurgents or 'terrorists') are a primary cause of the suicide bombers, which in turn leads to more military reprisals, which leads to more suicide bombs, which leads to the building of a wall, which leads to what?
Where does it stop?