silenced rifles?

Hey everyone, first time poster.

I've been reading a lot of survival posts and im curious about one idea, but lots of questions.

Rifles. Assuming you know how to use and maintain a rifle, is a silenced rifle a more preferred option?

I'll set the scene first, as different weapons have different uses.

After some catastrasophic world wide event (such as a third world war), civilisation is shelled into hiding. nuclear radiation and post apocalyptic effects on the weather and environment has poisoned or dried up most water and food sources. Civilisation does exist but only in small bunches as society crumbles.

To escape most human interaction, some people might flee further into the middle of the country (such as my countries "Alice Springs" type environment.

So basically, loner people, or very small groups (4 or less), surviving on what they can find, and what they are carrying as they walk into isolated areas of their countries. Vast open areas, little foilage, the occasional small group of buildings, no useable vehicles, carrying everything on your back. And firefights over a range of up to 300 meters.

What would be a suitable firearm to carry? I know nothing about firearms, but I would think something that is mass produced or is popular in the country would be help, as it would be easier to find spare parts, more ammo etc etc.

I'm also taking into consideration that there ARE other people out there, also with weapons, that are surviving off whats in YOUR bag, and they'll harm you to get it. So a rifle that could be silenced would be nice, or maybe a scope so you can see them far off, or at least engage them and still be far enough away that you can break off. No "john woo" stuff.

Anyway its all for a film I'm making, and I don't want to just go "Here have an AK 47 with scope and silencer and go shoot everything and don't worry about the muzzle flash or noise or the dust in the mag etc etc, because I want it to be AS REALISTIC AS POSSIBLE.

So survivalists, please help me select a weapon for a loner walking through dangerous territory. you don't have to answer everything I've listed below, just give me some ideas. I'm after a firearm that could be used over long distances (say 300 meters) but could also do well in shorter ranges. This is due to the character being in a varity of environments, most of which are vast areas of nothing, but he does come across the odd group of buildings, so firearm ranges are between 10 meters to 500. I do not know if this is possible, thats why I'm asking.

Type of firearm

Effective range - in meters if possible (I'm an aussie)

Weight (with or without mag doesn't matter)

Attachments - scope, silencer, bipod, tripod, larger mag etc

Magazine capacity

Does it have semi auto/full auto functions

Accuracy in burst fire/single fire

Damage to someone when shot

Different ammunition it can use

Is it used widely? Easy to maintain? does it have any problems?

Pros/Cons of said firearm

Thats all I can think of, please add more if you want.

Yours truely

Rowan

*edit*

Also, since people MIGHT be waiting for him, what would be an effective sniper rifle for them to use?, taking into account the environment, availability of ammo, weapons, the fact other people might be around.



[edit on 25-2-2007 by Crowbarr]

[edit on 25-2-2007 by Crowbarr]

well if you want a silenced rifle you almost have to stick with .22 cal weapons, yes you can get a larger cal but most large cal weapons have a supersonic velocity and there goes the silence .also a silencer on a .223 is about a foot long and 2 inches thick so you can see anything bigger in cal is going to be like a car muffler. silencers work best in the movies and though they have some limited use in the military it's just that limited.

wcssar


First, a silencer or suppressor is useful in all calibers, it removes the muzzle"blast" and makes it next to impossible to determinate where the shot came. This with supersonic loads.

If you need to "completely" silence a rifle you need to load rounds that do not brake the sound barrier. This reduces the available power, but with the use of heavy bullets a subsonic .308 load is very leathal out to 200m. Of course you'll have to use right kind of gunpowder to avoid "underload detonation" (someone tell me the correct term in english).

but to sum it up, even with standard ammo the noise is reduced significantly with a proper suppressor. Out here most shooters use them when practising and hunting to avoid uppsetting other people.

About the best suppressors in the world:
BR-Reflex suppressor page

[edit on 26-2-2007 by northwolf]

Doesnt a flash supressor create an even louder shot? Or does it just seem so to the shooter? Maybe Im thinking of a muzzle break?

I have a .22 Magnum rifle with a heavy barrel; its size (diameter) is just the right size for a plastic bottle (about 500ml water/soft-drink bottle) to fit over it. I was going to drill out the bottom of the bottle, but haven't tried it yet. I had not planned on using anything to stuff the bottle, like steel wool or foam, it would be a very simple silencer (in theory, at least) -- allowing the expelled gases to expand in the bottle before being vented out again.

Another way to "silence" a weapon would be if you fired it inside a home or vehicle at a target outside. The home or vehicle would help dampen some of the sound.

Placing a potato, or some other fruit/vegetable directly in front of the muzzle might help dampen the sound a bit as well.

northwolf:
very class reply.

Sorry wcssar, I got angry while typing that post, nothing to do with you. Removed the insulting part.
Still notion that over .22 cal silenced weapons are useless is false.

Coke Can silencers do work, tried and tested.

There are good pictures and cut-outs that show how silencers are constructed in the link of my first post.

Ps. Flash Suppressor is a different thing than Suppressor=Silencer

Originally posted by northwolf
Sorry wcssar, I got angry while typing that post, nothing to do with you. Removed the insulting part.
Still notion that over .22 cal silenced weapons are useless is false.

Coke Can silencers do work, tried and tested.

There are good pictures and cut-outs that show how silencers are constructed in the link of my first post.

Ps. Flash Suppressor is a different thing than Suppressor=Silencer

Well stated Northwolf. They do work even in .22 caliber. Most supressors are for relatively close up work. Not 500 yard shooting.

The plastic bottle silencers do work. If you are concerned with blowing the bottom out of a plastic bottle reinforce it with duct tape. Stuff the bottle with cotton or such ..up to you. These are mostly one shot tools.

NorthWolf is also correct about handloading subsonic. This takes some skill and dicipline. There are also some two stage silencers which bleed off enough gas to slow downt the bullet and then the second part reduces sound. These tend to be long silencers. These tools also tend to make a weapon barrel heavy like using a bayonet.

The new advances in silencers are in the connect/disconnect features. Newer types dont screw on but are locked on with a tightening device..not threaded. Also new materials are coming out which greatly extend the number or rounds which can be put through a silencer before extensive disassembly and maintenance are required.

Most silencers today do not deaden the sound totally ..only reduce its signature. I dont think this is understood by many peoples. They tend to think they pretty much cover up almost all the sound..not so. Mostly they just reduce it.

Great post Northwolf,
I envy you guys up in Finland the use of silencers,

Thanks,
Orangetom

Got to agree with Tom again. I've been next to a 308 rifle using a pretty good silencer, and they are still audible. Very Audible. The 7.62 was about as loud as a CO2 gun. Still made a loud pop sound, almost like a paintball gun. You can definantly hear the weapon being discharged from at least 75 feet away.

Like other posters have said there is alot more going on when a gun is absolutly silent other than the silencer. Special subsonic loads, modified recievers, and fireing mechanism are also part of it. And the military ones also will sometimes use different construction material strait off the line from the factory to make the weapons quiter as a whole.


I've never been around a smaller caliber silenced gun but I'm sure they are still somewhat audible. Suppresors and silencers help obscure the acoustics making it more difficult to tell where the round is coming from but it's not impossible to figure it out. Bullets sound very different when they are aimed at you. You can tell if you are directly in front of the gun thats shooting at you. The sound is a distinctive and different cracking sound, and it's relatively easy to figure out the tragectory of the round.

The best thing about suppresors and silencers is that they hide your location physically if you are using a rifle in a prone position. Most people that don't shoot don't realise that the muzzel blast will kick up a good amount of dirt, leaves and debris for a good distance along the ground infront of the barrel. Silencers hide this effect reasonably well, and that is the real reason most snipers use a silencer in combat. Physical disturbances are just as noticable as the sound if not relied upon more so to figure out where a shooter is.

Personally I think Silencers comprimise you alot (although I've neverpersonally used one) when using them on carbines and pistols, and are only effective at close range. One guy told me that a silenced MP5 won't kill someone even with a full spray past about 60-90 feet. The guy has used one in real life and I can confirm that he's killed before with a similar set up on his gun, so I take his word for it that silencers are sorta effective but not stunningly so.


The real advantage to storming a building where one might use a low caliber silenced or supressed weapon is not in how queitly they do their shooting but how quickly they do their shooting while being accurate to achieve relative superiority over their enemy.

Strike hard, fast and without mercy (why take chances), and make it increadibley violent when doing so so that the enemy is overwhelmed, shocked, and stunned from the assult. Achieve the leverage fast and the battle is won. Most fire fights inside a building are over fast when a team is storming a building. If it's not the commander screwed up bad, tipped off the enemy before executing the assult and lost suprise and leverage. He let it slip away and now you are in a stand off. The only thing to do then is to talk the guy out cause going in any further will get you killed for sure or blow him up, without blowing your self up in the process.

Either way a silencer isn't going to be that useful. Nobody is not going to notice when their buddy just got popped in the head. Getting hit with a bullet makes sound too, and blood is rather obvious. One guy with a silencer doing a double tap to a bad guy and then taking out his unsuspecting friend right afterward with another double tap is in the movies and video games not real life. In real life you use 4 guys to hose down 2 guys in a concerted strike. Each guy should look like shredded taco meat when the brief assult is done, not surgically killed at close range by a small caliber gun. Besides hit a guy in the head with a silenced weapon and there is a very good chance you didn't kill him immediatly and now all hell is going to break loose. The situation will from SNAFU to TARFU to FUBAR in the period of about 2 seconds.


PS why would a survivalist need a silenced gun anyways. Besides it's a great way to waste ammo. Great idea to shoot a deer or boar with a gun that probably won't kill it in one shot when not supressed with a round that is already at half the force it normally is. Good luck shooting the animal several times and wasting ammo, that might not be easy to get a hold of during an apocolypse or armeggedon.

BASSBLYR
Using silencers in hunting should be a must, not in survival only. Mai reason is that an supersonic .308 from a silenced rifle is no dangerous to your or more importantly your dogs hearing. Round wount loose too much energy, lots of Elks are shot every year with silenced weapons.

Silenced .308 is barely audible from 300m, unsupressed can be heard from miles away. Would thar be an advantage in sitX? i think so... (This with normal commercial rounds)

[edit on 26-2-2007 by BASSPLYR]

northwolf:
no problemo man we all get froggy sometimes and yes large cal silenced weapon would be much better than wearing ear plugs in the woods, it's not a real good idea to limit your hearing outdoors as you might not hear that grizzly that's walking up behind you. i guess the point i was trying to make was if you want silent as opposed silenced weapons .22 is the way to go as the are what most op's use as dog silencers( to kill guard dogs and to a lesser degree guards ) and things like the welrod ( a.45 cal) and the colt woodsman were the most common. i wish silencer were more readily available as they have their uses . as to my reply it was 2 edged i really think you had a class reply in that you do know what your talking about and it seem have practical experience in military matters. shake hands and both agree to forget and forgive.

Thanks everyone for the info, its helping me already work things out.

to BASSPLYR in reply to why a survivalist would carry a silenced firearm around? He's very paranoid.

But hey now that I know some info about REAL silencers, its helping to form certain details, so thank you all for the help.

one more question though, is it possible to attach some sort of suppressor or silencer to an ak 47? if not, is it possible to attach a bottle or coke can instead?

Thanks

yes you can put a suppressor on an ak ( note the use of suppressor as opposed to silencer this is the more accepted term just as bullet resistant vest is preferred to bullet proof) the major draw back to a suppressed ak would be it's action as an auto even when actuated with out firing is rather loud, so suppressed yes silent no. it would be used more as northwolf said to aid in concealing the location of the shooter rather than the neutralizing of sentries and their dogs. most suppressed weapons are bolt action or specialized types that cycle manually.
here is an article on suppressed weapons
www.angelfire.com...
here is a forum on the whisper class weapons some of the top of the line in specialized suppressed weapons
www.quarterbore.com...
here is an article on suppressed weapons and night ops.
nightoperations.com...
i hope this aids you in your endeavor.

If you're into handloading you own ammo, skip the bottle-necked rifle cartridges for quiet loads. I suggest heavy for caliber bullets in magnum pistol cartridges like the .44 Mag and .500 S&W magnum. They are much easier and safer to load down to the quiet report even without a silencer. A stealthy hunter friend of mine uses 500 grain plus cast lead bullets(over 1 oz/30gram) fired at about 700 fps through a low cost break-action HandiRifle. The bullet went completely through a 400 lb wild boar shoulder to shoulder at 60 yards and sounded like big deep champagne cork without a silencer. He used to use 45-70 rounds the same way but says he like the new .500 S&W cases better because of the heavier bullets. He's loaded them down to as slow as 500 fps but can't get good accuracy past 75 yards. I couldn't hear it the gun in the woods even though we were less than 100 yards apart.

thanks for that crgintx i'll keep it in mind. I'll have to research firearms a lot more now lol.

Originally posted by crgintx
If you're into handloading you own ammo, skip the bottle-necked rifle cartridges for quiet loads. I suggest heavy for caliber bullets in magnum pistol cartridges like the .44 Mag and .500 S&W magnum.

I think you can find better ballistics with a round like the 300 whisper.
The 300 Whisper was designed for the purpose of firing extremely heavy, accurate, ballistically efficient bullets at sub-sonic velocities and is now the state of the art long range cartridge in suppressed weapons. It delivers more energy more accurately than any existing sub-sonic round at 200 yards [and a lot further] (except other Whispers such as the 510 Whisper
750 Hornady AMAC and 750 grain PPI . . . 1050 FPS. Suppressed under 126 DB. MOA accuracy at 600 yards.). In addition, it has interesting sonic capabilities - possessing greater versatility than any other cartridge capable of performing in these vastly differing arenas.

300 Whisper Page

Yes, the whisper rounds have better ballistics but they bullets the fire are usually long spire points in FMJ and will zip through game at normal hunting ranges(below 300 yards) especially the large caliber Whispers which are designed as anti-material rounds. Plus in order for them to be really quiet, they'll need a silencer which to obtain legally will cost you $200 and much paperwork. Silenced rifles are also illegal to hunt with in many states like mine(Texas). An .50-70 rifle or .500 S&W pistol rounds loaded with 650 grain flatnose lead bullet to velocities of 700 FPS or less from a rifle will be relatively quiet and will thump down large game with authority. You'll have to get better at stalking to get within 100 yards or so but it beats the legal hassles of owning a silencer or getting fined and going to jail for hunting with one. Even at velocities as low as 350 fps, heavy round or flat nose bullets(400 grains+) of .45 caliber and larger impart enough hydrostatic shock to be fatal to most white tail deer at close range.

Originally posted by crgintx
Yes, the whisper rounds have better ballistics but they bullets the fire are usually long spire points in FMJ and will zip through game at normal hunting ranges(below 300 yards) especially the large caliber Whispers which are designed as anti-material rounds. Snip... An .50-70 rifle or .500 S&W pistol rounds loaded with 650 grain flatnose lead bullet to velocities of 700 FPS or less from a rifle will be relatively quiet and will thump down large game with authority. Snip... Even at velocities as low as 350 fps, heavy round or flat nose bullets(400 grains+) of .45 caliber and larger impart enough hydrostatic shock to be fatal to most white tail deer at close range.

Howdy crgintx:

Yep, your right when it comes to hunting, I must have spaced out, because most post on this is not about hunting, and my post was not geared for hunting. But all you say is true about heavy, fat bullets at low velocity, and is why I am a big fan of large caliber Airguns. The LA Outlaw shoots a .457 caliber 430gr bullet at 732fps, which is 509fpe (foot pounds energy). You might want to check out the link to see what kind of game you can get with this type of weapon. Large caliber, low velocity works fine for getting most game.

Quackenbush Air Guns

Crowbarr, you may want to look at the De Lisle silent carbine. Manufactured by the brits during the second world war, it's a conversion of a standard No4 rifle (lee enfield .303). It had the original .303 barrel and the forestock removed. It then had a new barrel attached, chambered for .45 ACP. The large magazine well was also adapted to accept a 10 round magazine, based on the colt 1911s. There is a lot of uncertainty about the weapon, some say there were in excess of 500 made, some say less than a hundred. However, it is generally accepted to be an exceptionally quiet weapon, inaudible from more than 20 metres away. Whilst there weren't many made, I think this weapon may suit your explorer. It fires a commonly available pistol calibre, and, excluding the bolt breech and barrel, most parts are the same as a standard lee enfield rifle. It also shoots accurately up to 250 metres or so. Some were made with full rifle butts, some with pistol grips and folding butts. A folding butt would allow the person wielding the weapon easier handling in close quarters.

The guns specifications, with a full rifle butt are as follows,

Length: 35 in (889 mm)
Barrel length: 9 in (228 mm)
Weight: 7 lb (3.18 kg)
Calibre: .45 ACP
Rifling: 7 grooves, LH twist
Feed: 10 round box magazine (some sources say a 20 round version was also available)
Muzzle velocity: 1200 ft/s (366 m/s)

My guess is, the folding butt would take off a good 8-10 inches from the overall length.