By Zeus!

Originally posted by rocknroll

Originally posted by nextguyinline
Frankly yes. Can you tell me God's word?

It's called the Bible. Pick it up and read it.

I've read it. Who wrote it?

Originally posted by nextguyinline
Why didn't Jesus write his own testimonies?

Obviously he didn't have to.

Right. Because a man was to follow and write it all down.

Originally posted by nextguyinline
Why didn't any of his immediate disciples?

They did, but people like you without faith refuse to believe this.

Faith doesn't write things. People do. I believe Jesus wrote his testimonies, if he was real. They were just left out of the final mess.

Originally posted by nextguyinline
You believe in MAN's word.

I believe this would better define you, since you doubt the Holy Bible.

I don't believe in anything, except that I don't believe in anything. Yes, I doubt the bible wholly.

Originally posted by FlyersFan

I seem to recall that the Olympic torch was lit from a fire from a pagan ceremony this last time (or was it the time before??). One of the times it was lit from a fire there and then there was a relay of the fire from the pagan ceremony .... They actually had women dressed as priestess' and had them around a giant fire at one of the temples somewhere over that way. I'm pretty sure it was Greece since that's where the Olympics originated.

Wonder where they got their ceremonies? They had 'em ... somehow.

The Olympics were held every four years in honor of the god Zeus. The Olympic torch can be traced to the torch carried by the goddess of liberty, (statue of Liberty) Semiramis or Isis if you prefer and is the same as the torch of enlightenment of the Masons.

If you trace to the origins you will find that Zeus is Nimrrod from Babylon and to go further the torch comes from Lucifer the light bringer. Then you will find sun gods and fire gods all over the world.

When Nimrod died he became Baal the sun god. His mother/wife was said to become pregnant with the ray of a sun and had a child Tammuz. Tammuz is said to be the reincarnated Nimrod.

In Egypt, Osiris who is Nimrod is reincarnated by the goddess Isis his sister who becomes pregnant with a lightning bolt and gives birth to the Apis bull who is the reincarnated Osiris. Just different versions of the same story that spread over the world. Hence Hindus believe cows are sacred. Baal is worshipped as the golden calf.....Marduk is a bull. It all comes from the same source. That source is Lucifer who is Satan appearing as an angel of light.

Let me help out a bit here:

1. First of all, the Bible is not as evil, new, controlling and negative as it has been made out to be in recent years, mostly by people who have been sadly exposed to either:
a. a little information
b. portions of the Bible
c. only negative aspects of the Bible
d. propaganda against the Bible.

2. The Bible says that anybody that has not heard the Word, (information in the Bible), is not held to it's contents. BUT, supposedly ALL men have an innate understanding of God, and this personal understanding is binding.
So, no, Christianity does not say that non Christians are ll wrong in their beliefs and are going to Hell. It says that if you have been exposed to the Bible, Christianity and Christ, and you turn your back on the truth you learned, then you are denied Heaven.
But, (and this is important), Most religions and beliefs understand that no matter who you are, where you are or what belief you adopt, God, whatever He is, has manifested himself in your life, and whatever way that is, He has become your Law. This is why ALL cultures, no matter where they are, have religions and belief systems.

3. Jesus did not write his own works down, because it had to come from people that had witnessed what had happened. That is why, if you research this subject from a scientific point of view, you would find that kings, paupers, soldiers and regular people from various areas and cultures were aware of the works of Jesus during his time here. He is listed in Historical Documents of cultures that did not even believe in him to be the son of God.
That is pretty strong stuff.

4. There is evidence that the Old Testament dates back farther then first thought. Dates corresponding with Sumerian events are beginning to pop up, which would put some of the events in the OT to over 3K BC.
The Flood is just one tie-in. (It is really very interesting stuff, if a person can get over their "Bashing" and research scientifically. There are some great books out there that do this.)

5. The image of God as a bearded dude on a throne was not adopted until much, much later, and is not described as such in the Bible. But, yes, the artists and writers later on, supposedly were influenced by Zeus.

6.


I'm tired, and forgot what "6" was.

I am not a Bible-Thumper. I am a Christian, but I mostly just like to read and learn stuff.

Originally posted by Horrificus
I am not a Bible-Thumper. I am a Christian, but I mostly just like to read and learn stuff.

Very good post there Horrificus (love the name - I'm a monster fan).
I am not a thumper neither. Don't mean to come off that way.
I love to read and learn too. I also love to argue my point.

Originally posted by Horrificus

3. Jesus did not write his own works down, because it had to come from people that had witnessed what had happened. That is why, if you research this subject from a scientific point of view, you would find that kings, paupers, soldiers and regular people from various areas and cultures were aware of the works of Jesus during his time here. He is listed in Historical Documents of cultures that did not even believe in him to be the son of God.
That is pretty strong stuff.

Did Jesus tell you that he couldn't write his teachings down? That somebody else had to? Makes no sense whatsoever, but then again, faith is sensless.
How many gospels were written by men who witnessed Jesus? How many were written long after he died?

Please list me the Historical Documents (non-religous) ,since your asking me to look at it scientifically. Not the forgeries, not the 'under reviews', not the 'doubtfuls' either. Please list the documents that are scholarly accepted as legit.

— Arguably the most important person to ever exist, but the least documented in history.


:edit: Purporting faith as matter of fact is absolutely thumperish.

[edit on 8-2-2007 by nextguyinline]

Originally posted by nextguyinline
:edit: Purporting faith as matter of fact is absolutely "thumperish".

*hops through thread like a bunny*

Just stay out of my garden!!!

:edit: not that garden.

[edit on 8-2-2007 by nextguyinline]

Since this thread was originally about pagans and not about the Christian Bible, I would like to go back to the OP topic.

I think that it is about time that Pagans used this Pagan temple. It makes perfect sense to me. There will always be those who want to control the religious ideas and practices of others, but I do believe that religious freedom is something to which everyone should have access.

Pagans can be just as religious / spiritual as anyone else and while guilt may not be a central feature of a Pagan religion, responsibility is a central feature. I believe that to exercise this responsibility, it would be beneficial to perform the proper rituals in the proper environment - and that may mean reclaiming a temple.

edited to remain on topic

[edit on 2/8/07 by wellwhatnow]

Thanks for the focus.

I probably started the tangent.

Originally posted by FlyersFan
Wonder where they got their ceremonies? They had 'em ... somehow.

Consider the 'druids' in england today, they have ceremonies at stonehenge worshipping the rising sun, solstice, etc.

We have no records from actual druids showing that they worshipped at stone henge, or any other henge, nor that they worshipped the sun, etc. The only contemporary record we have of their theology is that they worshiped Mercury above all else, then Apollo, Mars, Jupiter, and Minerva.
The contemporary druids made up what they thought the actual druids did.

Similarly, I wonder if these contemporary Greek Pagans are simply making up what they think is a 'proper greek pagan ritual'. The greek religion was far more complex than peopel realize, and it was nothing like the collection of myths that we have today.

XphilesPhan
Well, before Christ it was judaism. which dates to roughly 2000 BC, so it may not be neccesarily older.

The jewish religion pretty clearly is built up on an older, pagan, base, and wasn't all that disimilar to the other religions of the eastern med.

I think its foolish to worship something like the sun in this day and age

No more foolish than worshiping a Zombie Jew.
All religion looks equally foolish, its only the people that accept any particualr religion that don't think its silly.

Horrificus
Dates corresponding with Sumerian events are beginning to pop up, which would put some of the events in the OT to over 3K BC.
The Flood is just one tie-in.

If I tell you a story about something that happened to me, and then you find out that someone told the same story 50 years before I was born, would you still beleive that it actually happened to me?

Isn't it more reasonable that the jews, being a semitic people in, at least, long distance contact with the more advanced, older, more respected, wealthier, and more powerful sumerian civilization would've equally respected their myths and repeated them?
Isn't Abraham, the founder of the faith, infact a sumerian who migrated to a new land?
Doesn't that suggest that the jews stories started in sumer, and were carried over to israel, rather than the other way around?

He is listed in Historical Documents of cultures that did not even believe in him to be the son of God.

There is a single mention of a 'christus' in one of the commentaries of Josephus, and even that is considered of dubious origin. Outside of that and the scriptures, there is no contemporary mention of jesus, positive or negative.
[quoteThat is why, if you research this subject from a scientific point of view
You can't examine faith scientifically. Scientifically, the idea that a man was crucified, died, and was buried, and then on the third day he rose again, is preposterous. If you inject science into it all, then you can only reject it.

Clearly, there can be lots of reasons for why the leader of a movement wouldn't've recorded his own sayings. We can speculate to no end really, but we're never going to have a real explanation.

mostly by people who have been sadly exposed to either:
a. a little information
b. portions of the Bible
c. only negative aspects of the Bible
d. propaganda against the Bible.

Do you really think its reasonable or accurate to say most people who aren't promoters of the bible simply haven't read enough of it?

Originally posted by SpeakerofTruth
Annie, I don't waste my time responding to anything fundies say.. They have a right to believe as they wish, but to me, it holds little to no truth.

No doubt.
However, there is a difference between a belief and an overbearing and bullying believer drowning out or belittling others who have the same rights but differing beliefs.

And I never get tired of pointing this out - not because I'm riled up or offended or anything like that. I consider it a sound investment of my time and a productive use of my ever ready sharpened tongue! This is part of why God gave me a tongue sharpened at both ends!

I let them have their opinion, because that is what they are, and I continue to have mine.

We certainly should all be allowed our opinion. As well as the floor when we wish to speak about our beliefs...but anyone using their airtime to try to shoot someone else down based on beliefs is going to be promptly shot down by me based on principles. Whomever believes in what....we must be fair and courteous and if someone such as rocknroll forgets that, I will be glad to remind them with courtesy yet without apology.

Originally posted by XphilesPhan
ahhh, so you are passing judgment on christianity, and you are somehow justified in this?

No. I am pointing out the obvious contradictions in the christian theology in regard to guilt which you brought up.

Have you ever read the bible?

Please.

Obviously you havent if you are under the impression Jesus had a wife, and dont give me that mary magdelen crap.

Look - don't give me any crap about not knowing. I'm getting sick of it!
You think you know but you don't say how. I KNOW I know AND I plainly confess how. Yet you choose to disrespect or ignore my statements. Why?
You have to proof against me at all. I have living proof but it isn't anything to do with you at all. LOVE overcomes all things. Even death.

Thet was never in the scripture and is purely conjecture that has no basis in historical fact.

What is your 'basis in historical fact?' I demand you show it or shut up about it. It is not conjecture - you assume a whole lot more than you can even make an educated guess about.

Jesus died in a horrible way so that mankind didnt, once again, incur the wrath of the Lord. It was also a sacrifice on the part of Christ and a gift from God. Because Christ paid the price for ALL sins, no one that follows Christ will ever have to pay for them. The gift was salvation and a path to God paid for by the blood of His only son.

WERE YOU THERE?


NO i did NOT see YOU there.

There are OTHERS who WERE THERE who also hang out HERE at ATS. They have NEVER not once mentioned that YOU were THERE. If they had SEEN you THERE and also seen you HERE they would have MADE it known to ME. THEY have NOT. SEE???

How can you follow Christ if he didn't even stop in to let you know he was back? Then you could have followed him right to my house. But he came quietly home alone.

So find something else to save you from the guilt you take upon yourself. None of that has to do with my boy at home.

I think its foolish to worship something like the sun in this day and age

You need to understand why the sun is being worshipped. The sun is worshipped because Lucifer is the bringer of light. You celebrate the rebirth of Nimrod every Christmas. Nimrod who becomes the sun at his death...........and religion spreads across the earth when the languages are confused at Babel.

Originally posted by nextguyinline

Originally posted by Horrificus

3. Jesus did not write his own works down, because it had to come from people that had witnessed what had happened. That is why, if you research this subject from a scientific point of view, you would find that kings, paupers, soldiers and regular people from various areas and cultures were aware of the works of Jesus during his time here. He is listed in Historical Documents of cultures that did not even believe in him to be the son of God.
That is pretty strong stuff.

Did Jesus tell you that he couldn't write his teachings down? That somebody else had to? Makes no sense whatsoever, but then again, faith is sensless.
How many gospels were written by men who witnessed Jesus? How many were written long after he died?

Please list me the Historical Documents (non-religous) ,since your asking me to look at it scientifically. Not the forgeries, not the 'under reviews', not the 'doubtfuls' either. Please list the documents that are scholarly accepted as legit.

— Arguably the most important person to ever exist, but the least documented in history.


:edit: Purporting faith as matter of fact is absolutely thumperish.

[edit on 8-2-2007 by nextguyinline]

I am working on what you need.
Also, look how negative you are. Are you saying that you would be more apt to believe the stories of Jesus if he wrote them by himself? Of course not. You aren't even able to accept accounts from others.
What it comes down to is "faith". At the end of the day, a person is either going to believe, or they are not going to believe.
That's a good thing. Because, almost anything can be disputed. So, we really do make our own reality.

Originally posted by Nygdan

"Zombie Jew"?

Great Googely Moogely! That's one way to make friends!('')

Horrificus
Dates corresponding with Sumerian events are beginning to pop up, which would put some of the events in the OT to over 3K BC.
The Flood is just one tie-in.

If I tell you a story about something that happened to me, and then you find out that someone told the same story 50 years before I was born, would you still beleive that it actually happened to me?

No, but it's funny. Looking at the forums here, a large part of the belief system for UFOs, Conspiracy Theories, Monster Sightings, etc, are substantiated and given credence DUE to the fact that other people have had similar experiences, or exposure to similar stories throughout time.

The fact that the Sumerian people have an account of the Great Flood that predates the Bible, does not discount the Bible. It just means that:

1. Some accounts in the Bible are older than once thought.
2. Maybe the Sumerian mythos and Biblical mythos are touching on the same event, and neither can claim it.
3. Maybe the Sumerian mythos and Biblical mythos are touching on the same event, and the Bible can claim it.
4. Maybe the Sumerian mythos and Biblical mythos are touching on the same event, and the Bible isn't trying to claim it, just detailing it.

Isn't it more reasonable that the jews, being a semitic people in, at least, long distance contact with the more advanced, older, more respected, wealthier, and more powerful sumerian civilization would've equally respected their myths and repeated them?
Isn't Abraham, the founder of the faith, infact a sumerian who migrated to a new land?
Doesn't that suggest that the jews stories started in sumer, and were carried over to israel, rather than the other way around?

All of this is possible. But, it still doesn't discount anything in the Bible. For all we know, "Religions" is a constantly evolving thing "on purpose". Maybe something will happen soon that will lead to a new belief that, though different from Christianity, has actually grown from Christianity. And, maybe it is supposed to be that way. And, obviously, Christianity has sprung from other beliefs.

Maybe it is still evolving until we have a perfect understanding of our Spiritual Environment.

He is listed in Historical Documents of cultures that did not even believe in him to be the son of God.

There is a single mention of a 'christus' in one of the commentaries of Josephus, and even that is considered of dubious origin. Outside of that and the scriptures, there is no contemporary mention of jesus, positive or negative.

That is why, if you research this subject from a scientific point of view

You can't examine faith scientifically. Scientifically, the idea that a man was crucified, died, and was buried, and then on the third day he rose again, is preposterous. If you inject science into it all, then you can only reject it.

The possible reasons for this belief to have been documented are almost endless. But, it doesn't mean that it didn't happen, or couldn't have happened differently. But, there are some strange stories relating to this event that, again, are not strictly from believers.

mostly by people who have been sadly exposed to either:
a. a little information
b. portions of the Bible
c. only negative aspects of the Bible
d. propaganda against the Bible.

Do you really think its reasonable or accurate to say most people who aren't promoters of the bible simply haven't read enough of it?

i

I didn't mean it that way. I meant that "Some" information, or disinformation, or propaganda, or media messages are not going to give an accurate view of the entire message.

I will try to get some sources, links, and answers, and come back.
Thanks everybody. Good discussion.

[edit on 2/8/2007 by Horri

[edit on 2/8/2007 by Horrificus]

For all we know, "Religions" is a constantly evolving thing "on purpose". Maybe something will happen soon that will lead to a new belief that, though different from Christianity, has actually grown from Christianity. And, maybe it is supposed to be that way. And, obviously, Christianity has sprung from other beliefs.

Horrificus, that is certainly true. Christianity, although many Christians don't like to hear it, is an outgrowth of Judaism. Judaism is an outgrowth of other beliefs systems that pre-date it.

When one looks at the world's religions, Judaism, Christianity,Islam, Hindu, Buddhist, et cetera, there seems to be a common denominator amongst them. Albeit formed in a different manner...

I am tired of criticisng others religious views and worldviews.. When are people going to realize that we are all in this together, regardless of religion, sex or creed?

I sincerely prayed last night and I must say, the creator ofr God, whatever one wishes to call it, has certainly brought me back to my original perspectives, which, at least in my opinion, are the correct ones. I have somewhat strayed away from those perspectives over the last few tumultuous years. I have noticed a steady increase in my indignation and criticism of those who don't think the way I do. I don't like that. I am going to actively make an effort to move away from that type of thinking.

As I have previously stated, my indignation has caused me to be misunderstood by some I am sure. I have nothing against Christians, hell, I am Christian, just not an indoctrinated one. However, I am going to have to get to the point to where I allow the indoctrinated ones to believe as they wish, rather than "demonizing" them for it. It's honestly not their fault.

Anyway. back to the point. Horrificus, you made a great point in the quote above. It's too bad that more "religious" types don't see it the way that you do.

Originally posted by SpeakerofTruth

Horrificus, that is certainly true. Christianity, although many Christians don't like to hear it, is an outgrowth of Judaism. Judaism is an outgrowth of other beliefs systems that pre-date it.

As ususal SOC you have missed the bus. Christianity is exactly what the Bible prophesied that the Jew would not see the savior because they served other Gods. The Gentiles are the prophesied grafted in first harvest. Judaism has absolutely nothing to do with other religions that predate it. That's why after 2000 years the Jew came home with religion and language intact.

When one looks at the world's religions, Judaism, Christianity,Islam, Hindu, Buddhist, et cetera, there seems to be a common denominator amongst them. Albeit formed in a different manner...

There is a common denominator between Judaism and Christianity. That would be God.

There is a common denominator between Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism and that would be one posing as an angel of light.

Originally posted by SpeakerofTruth
I am tired of criticisng others religious views and worldviews.. When are people going to realize that we are all in this together, regardless of religion, sex or creed?

There is opposition because there is an adversary. Don't worry your dream is just around the corner.............though short lived.

Reincarnation is a fact. I will demonstrate and prove this for any open minds.

Sun - do you mean

Devil T. Rose?

The rose is already in my garden right outside the door

i am sick with love

thank you for being you Sun Matrix i love you truly i do

Just in case you don't believe i love you Sun Matrix:

You have voted Sun Matrix for the Way Above Top Secret award. You have two more votes this month.

huh?