By Zeus!

Guardian Article

Pagans in Greece are 'making a comeback', the article says. I don't know if they are making a comeback, or if they are just being more bold with their worship activities. (I think they are just being more bold) At any rate, they are now pressing their rights to worship in their ancestral temples. The Greek Orthodox Church isn't happy. Read more at the article -

Guardian Article

That's very interesting - i think the ancient greek culture is rather elegant in the way the represent.

And i truly am convinced that true religious freedom should be a human right and therefore something the UN should put into place and enforce because that would probably help cut down on violence and strife a great deal.

Pretty much any religion that wishes to be manifest there is the implied presence of two choices at that point. Religion or not. Why can't that be the case and just let everyone make their own mind up and then peacefully pursue their means? We don't all drive Fords - why should we all be either christian or not?

Thanks, flyer - that was something i had never considered regarding the UN and i'm going to see what their policies or positions might be, if they have any.

Why is this even a story? Leave em alone, for Christ's sake!! Christ said to live and let live.. period!! This is an issue that is sort of a sore spot with me.. Even though I am not pagan, I don't see their threat.

[edit on 7-2-2007 by SpeakerofTruth]

Originally posted by SpeakerofTruth
Why is this even a story?

Because it's news. It's interesting. It tells us what is going on in the world.

Leave em alone, for Christ's sake!!

The news article wasn't coming down on the Pagans. No one here did either. If anything, I think that both QueenAnnie and myself figure that those temples are Pagan and therefore the Pagans should have a right to worship in their ancestoral temples.

What are you so upset about??

Well, Flyers... It seems to me that people of "the faith" tend to come down on any belief system that is not their own. I am very indignant towards that line of thinking...When I say people of "the faith," I am referring to Judaism,Christianity and Islam.

My defenses automatically go up when I see such an article. No offense to anyone.. It's a historical fact that Judaism,Christianity and Islam have persecuted pagans. For what? Because they believe differently... If you don't think that it could happen again, in the world we currently live in, think again.

[edit on 7-2-2007 by SpeakerofTruth]

Originally posted by SpeakerofTruth
It's a historical fact that Judaism,Christianity and Islam have persecuted pagans.

Oh sure. I agree with you. But honestly, I didn't see the article as a shout out to Christians to 'get the Pagans'. It just seemed like information to me. Information about the Greek Orthodox not being happy with the upswing in Pagan activity ... something that is important when you want to look at potential modern pagan persecution rising up.

Before anyone says something like, "When are people going to let the past be the past?" Let me just say,I never am. Those who forget history are doomed to repeat it.

Flyers, let me just say that I do want to personally apologize to you. I seem to burst out towards you when you and Annie are probably two of my favorite posters here. I just get charged about some issues. I know that I am taken the wrong way many times... I love Christians, don't ever think I don't. I am not too hept on institutionalized Christianity, but I love the people who proclaim to be Christians.

I just am a bit of a free thinker when it comes to religious issues. Please, once again, don't take any offense to my responses.

[edit on 7-2-2007 by SpeakerofTruth]

Interesting, I didn't know about this, but it is certainly quite interesting that paganism is growing somewhere. And if they want to use the ancient temples, why shouldn't they? I can't see any reason why they shouldn't, that would be like not letting people worship at Mecca or the Vatican.

Ok, now with a level head, let me discuss the implications here. The article is indeed interesting. I think it's an indication of how desperate humanity has become. They are looking for answers because "organized" faiths are not offering them the answers that they intuitively feel is correct, or, maybe it's just a matter of them not getting the answers they want to hear. I guess it depends on one's perspective.

For me, "organized" religion doesn't work. I guess it's because that when it comes to spiritual issues, it is much more complex than what religion would like us to think, in my honest opinion. Now, paganism is not something that I personally adhere to. Although, if one looks at the god, goddesses as being attributes of a singular God, then, yeah, it is very viable.

From what I understand, that is eesentially how pagans view things. They view the gods and goddesses as sort of attributes of a singular God. I don't see anything wrong with that.

Originally posted by apex
that would be like not letting people worship at Mecca or the Vatican.

Exactly. Those Pagan temples are tourist spots but first and foremost they are places of worship. These are the ancestoral places of worship for the pagans. They should be allowed to worship in peace (as long as the historical sites are not disturbed ).

Originally posted by SpeakerofTruth
Please, once again, don't take any offense to my responses.

No problem. You just surprised me that's all. No one was down on the pagans. If anything ... we were being sympathetic.

No biggie.


[edit on 2/7/2007 by FlyersFan]

EXACTLY. This story is pertinent because the time is come for those of us who do enjoy personal freedom of choice in our spiritual lives and are bothered by these types of things (especially over and over and nothing ever changes) to do something about it!

I'm not saying stir it up...but if we all had just about 5% MLK's courage to say we have a dream, too - for peace - and we peacefully expressed that at every such encounter like this - instead of getting disgruntled, defensive, or irritated, just speak up with courtesy but conviction!

We get irritated because these things just don't go away. Why not? If we're not part of the solution then we are part of the problem.

i was totally blown away when i went to the UN website - my first visit
and find this immediately: UN Declaration

Okay great. I'm not that hip on the UN policies but i guess now is the time to start - but they don't really do any enforcing do they? Just decree (suggest really) and then sit back down?

And no one else ever stands up again for it except 10 years down the road in a unremarkable stand up and declare again kind of thing?

This is totally ineffective! What do you guys know about it? Anything?

I realize that peace can't be forced but there must be some more effective way - perhaps just speaking out like i said. If we do that, it begins as a murmur then grows into a mumble and eventually spreads out into a voice heard all over the world. Not a challenge but a reminder that we know certain things aren't tolerated so we won't.

That is truly how societies fundamentally maintain those types of things...if everyone said something to someone they saw throwing out litter, eventually people would stop. Not shouting but like 'hooty hoot don't pollute' and go on...

Just think: 3 observing 1 litterbug and saying one sentence in a normal voice and then going on...would definitely make an impression the first time on just about anyone. And it might just take 2 times if everyone knew that would result every time unless no one is around.

Just something to think about.

peace out guys

[Article 1
1. Everyone shall have the right to freedom of thought, conscience and religion. This right shall include freedom to have a religion or whatever belief of his choice, and freedom, either individually or in community with others and in public or private, to manifest his religion or belief in worship, observance, practice and teaching.

2. No one shall be subject to coercion which would impair his freedom to have a religion or belief of his choice.

3. Freedom to manifest one's religion or belief may be subject only to such limitations as are prescribed by law and are necessary to protect public safety, order, health or morals or the fundamental rights and freedoms of others.

I wish that everyone would adhere to this.. Why can't they? Why won't they?

I'm not that hip on the UN policies but i guess now is the time to start - but they don't really do any enforcing do they? Just decree (suggest really) and then sit back down?

I am not all of that hept on the U.N either,Annie. It was a failure as the League of Nations and it is a failure as the United Nations in my opinion. Precisely for the reason that you state. They just suggest things and don't do anything to encourage or mandate.



[edit on 7-2-2007 by SpeakerofTruth]

i love it when the old pagan religions get news coverage
though i haven't heard much about the greek neo-pagans, i know a few neo-pagan odinists

good people
fun ceremonies

Originally posted by SpeakerofTruth
Ok, now with a level head, let me discuss the implications here.

I like that you do care! You are one of my favorites, too.

They are looking for answers because "organized" faiths are not offering them the answers that they intuitively feel is correct, or, maybe it's just a matter of them not getting the answers they want to hear.

I think it is more of a desire for the freedom to choose for themselves and organize under the protection that other more 'mainstream' religions enjoy.
Whatever paganism means - i don't care actually - surely it is not a question of whether of not they are structured but just that they have unique ideas and desires and wish to be able to express them freely in order to benefit as they should.

For me, "organized" religion doesn't work.

You and I are of the same mind on that. I say: it doesn't work for ME. I know that it works for many but not always the same one. Any group social effort of any sort really must have some sort of organization in order to work well for the participants. Those that don't feel harmonious therein will find another group more suitable to their needs. And i will continue to go around with my mp3 player delivering my favorite sermons via Hendrix and Pink Floyd and ICP....and speaker you will do whatever it is you do...and it's all good.

Although, if one looks at the god, goddesses as being attributes of a singular God, then, yeah, it is very viable.

Why can't it be viable just based on the fact that someone somewhere finds it applicable and suited to their beliefs and way of life?

From what I understand, that is eesentially how pagans view things. They view the gods and goddesses as sort of attributes of a singular God. I don't see anything wrong with that.

Why should it matter whether you (or I or the Pope) sees anything wrong with anyone else's beliefs at all? Don't take that wrong - it sounds harsh and so I included myself in that.

i just want to make a point: it is none of my business or my privilege to express an opinion on the worthiness of another's beliefs as compared, or not, to mine or any others

However we all have the God-given right (whatever god means it is the highest authority and works for this statement) to choose our god(s) or our not-god(s) and be left alone about it. And if we expect that privilege for ourself then we must be prepared to defend it for anyone else, right?

It is good to learn and share. Sometimes it is good to totally avoid certain topics with certain ones altogether. We can make appropriate judgments if we just make one thing priority and not negotiable: Mind thy own business.

Does that not make sense? Do you see where our problem is with this stuff? Freedom of choice means our choice isn't defined by anything other than our own choice. Our problems with violence and strife in the world are not that complex - most come down to this very principle.

Annie,I certainly understand and I certainly agree!! I think a person should have the choice to believe,not to do, but to believe anything he/ she wishes without consequence.

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
i love it when the old pagan religions get news coverage
though i haven't heard much about the greek neo-pagans, i know a few neo-pagan odinists

good people
fun ceremonies

One of my very best friends is Odin.

But yeah...to be totally honest, lately i've been thinking how awesome it would be if everyone had what they wanted as far as spiritual recreation...and communities all encouraged the various celebrations and feasts, etc to be held and even promoted - i would go to every thing that was put on....there'd be cool stuff every weekend...and variety even in rural areas. even stuff like renaissance fairs, lumber jack stuff and oktoberfest etc...anything that lets us explore life and fun and relax our minds is going to be good for mankind.

Originally posted by SpeakerofTruth
They are looking for answers because "organized" faiths are not offering them the answers that they intuitively feel is correct, or, maybe it's just a matter of them not getting the answers they want to hear. I guess it depends on one's perspective.

Exactly. Organized religion is not telling people what they want to hear.
They don't want guilt; but guilt is good it keeps us from being bad.
People love their sin and have no intention of letting it go for God or whoever.
Nobody likes to be told they are wrong.
Soooo, join a pagan group, cult, or whatever that frees you from guilt, lets you do whatever you want, places no rules on your conduct and flies in the face of conventional religion.
This is why religious people have a problem with pagans: religious folk feel pagans are spiritually irresponsible. This will always be the view taken by the religious.

[edit on 7-2-2007 by rocknroll]

I don't care, more room in heaven, if you ask me. Of course if you ask my parents I could be joining them in Hell either way.

As far as this being a reaction against organized religion, the classical greek religions, especially when you are talking about rites at central temples of Olympian Zeus, ARE organized religions.


I find the reaction of the Orthodox church humourous. What do they think they can actually do about this anyway? They're not going to be able to round up and murder people doing this, so it looks like they're just going to have to deal with loosing some ground.

www.guardian.co.uk...
If you are brought up with Greek mythology, the idea you are the descendants of the ancient Greeks and imbued with the importance of ancient Greek culture, you have all the pre-requisites for such an inclination,"

I think a big problem with this is that what we are taugh as greek mythology had no real meaning to the classical greeks. They werent' walking around with copies of Bullfinch's Mythology. I have to wonder at where they are getting their rituals from, if nothing else.




It woudl be really fascinating to see if any previously crypto-pagan communities start 'decrypting' now.



[edit on 7-2-2007 by Nygdan]