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Successful Black Prejudice

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posted on Jan, 30 2007 @ 10:31 PM
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I believe the end result here is very simple..

IT IS Insulting behavior!!!

PERIOD

To spend post after post attempting to validate, explain or excuse it is irrational at best. As it quite simply is insulting and unacceptable behavior that does no good for any of the parties involved.

It insults the one the terms are directed at.
It directly shows the racist intent of the one directing the insult.
And
It clearly indicates the level of intellect of the insulter.

The English language is one of the most eloquent and expressive languages on the planet. To feel the need to resort to insults, especially of a racial nature, can only be due to a direct intentional slur to the persons character or race. Unless we are to assume the ones making the statement are incapable of any other forms of expression. Thus the lack of intelligence.

Why insult at all?

Especially because someone is successful, if not for jealousy?

That argument that they are "Holding you down" only flushes so many times before it stops the toilet up.

Who held Rice down? We don't know. Perhaps the same sort of people that you claim are holding you back (Or down which ever the case) Yet she persevered and rose to the occasion. Same with Thomas, Powell, Gonzales et al.

She and they persevered through what hardships? We don't know. What we do know is that because of her desire for a better life and a better future, a chance to make something of herself, she now suffers the ridicule of those she should be a shining example to.

And what are the excuses?

They are not advancing our cause? BS. Their VERY EXISTENCE ADVANCES THE CAUSE OF BLACK SUCCESS!!!!
That can not be any more clear...

They sold you out!!!!!!
HOW???
By being the very BEST they can be???
Now that just sounds rediculous.
Again every breath they take is a wonderful shining light to ALL people desiring more success in their lives, ESPECIALLY the black people.

Colin Powell, the soldier and statesman, has been a HERO of mine for many years.. I would like to think he is partially responsible for the little success I have had in life. To hear him ridiculed and then have it explained away as him "Holding someone back" or "selling out" is the very epitome of victimization and jealously.

Insults people, pure and simple....

The only true intellectual, objectionably, defensible independent variable is why these insults seem to be specific to the black race.

Semper




posted on Jan, 30 2007 @ 11:16 PM
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What is very insulting, is this thread. It is extremely insulting because it is still used to solely concentrate on someone who is a "credit of their race" instead of doing research of what these people represent, their actions as well as their supporters. The list of "successful Blacks" presented in this thread is therefore problematic.

Hence again, the true motives of this thread: to give validation only to conservative Blacks, but not all achieving Blacks. Your statement in the last post really sums it up for me.

How I derived by this awareness is the constant mention of conservative Blacks. Which means that there isn't a wide enough sample of successful Blacks to determine whether this is truly the case. I think it would help the case of this thread if such research on successful Blacks would be extended to all walks of life: gay, straight, lower-class, middle-class, upper-class, conservative, liberal, etc.

How can we determine who is a "high achieving" black simply by a biased list of those named in this thread? How do you define who is "intelligent" and "high-achieving"? What is the definition of an "Oreo" or an "Uncle Tom"? And if Black people show examples of others from their race not subscribing to the said behavior, does it prove that this stereotype is not true?

I would believe the motives of this thread would be different if there was a less biased attempt to name names in terms of who was successful. If that was the case, it would be also fair (thank you HH
) to see why this occurrence of name-calling would happen (since some posters will not believe that Blacks can critically analyze each other without resorting to such underhanded tactics).

Perhaps, what might be discussed is why some white posters cannot believe (once again) what a various number of Blacks themselves say on the matter, especially those outside the biased list of Blacks endorsed in this thread.

Let me pose this question: is it just easier for some whites to "speak for" the Black Community instead of listen to a variety of voices from Black people--apart from those who are conservative?




[edit on 31-1-2007 by ceci2006]



posted on Jan, 30 2007 @ 11:29 PM
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Ceci2006, you are exactly right to call attention to Motives.

As a psychologist/cultural anthropoligist I see many here with a deep seated guilt that they are trying to rationalise with intellectualization and rhetoric. Therapy with a qualified councilor might be in order. Prayer would'nt hurt either.

[edit on 30-1-2007 by whaaa]



posted on Jan, 31 2007 @ 12:06 AM
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Thank you whaaa for your remarks. I appreciate them most gratefully. You hit the nail on the head.


All through this thread, I had posed different questions and posted sources to research what the motives might be for this subject matter.While reading the posts of others, I have discovered this thread has only served to reinforce socialized belief systems that are already there. Little has been done to change anyone's mind in a positive light.

I agree that there is a lot of guilt being expressed here. But, I also propose that the issues in validating the success of such a small sample of "successful" Blacks are slanted so that the political reasons are more apparent than ones of altruism. It's a shame that this is so. Instead, work should be done to break down these stereotypes and create more understanding.

I wonder what is to be gained by single-handedly slandering the 'Black Community' by perpetuating such stereotypes? Would people be satisfied if Dr. Rice, Gen. Powell and other conservative Blacks were openly lauded without fully taking in account their histories, actions and policies in shaping America? If that was so, then this thread and topic suffers immensely.


[edit on 31-1-2007 by ceci2006]



posted on Jan, 31 2007 @ 02:52 AM
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Oh,

I agree again 100% with you Ceci.

There is a TON of guilt and victimization indicated on this thread...

Anyone that reads the unanswered threads, the repeated rhetoric and the constant by-line can see this..


What is very insulting, is this thread.


Then why are you continually here? Why stay and be insulted?

Unlike Rice and Powell, you are not here working and this is obviously not an expression of your success. They have to be in that position due to their massive success, you may leave anytime. They must endure the insulting behavior, you can go.
Guilt?

Semper

[edit on 1/31/2007 by semperfortis]

[edit on 1/31/2007 by semperfortis]



posted on Jan, 31 2007 @ 05:51 AM
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Originally posted by whaaa
As a psychologist/cultural anthropoligist I see ...

Go back to school. You've missed a few things.

Therapy with a qualified councilor might be in order.

THAT I fully agree with.


Originally posted by ceci2006
slandering the 'Black Community' by perpetuating such stereotypes?

Not Stereotypes. REAL PHENOMENON.


other conservative Blacks

Oprah and Will Smith were dicussed and they definately are NOT conservative.


Originally posted by semperfortis
IT IS Insulting behavior!!! Why insult at all? Especially because someone is successful, if not for jealousy?


They use the word 'white' as a cuss or a put down, like it's a bad thing. So we are back to the simplest explaination. Your explainaton - jealous racists.

edited once for spelling


[edit on 1/31/2007 by FlyersFan]



posted on Jan, 31 2007 @ 08:47 AM
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Originally posted by FlyersFan

Not Stereotypes. REAL PHENOMENON.



other conservative Blacks
Oprah and Will Smith were dicussed and they definately are NOT conservative.


Here's another real phenomenon that is discovered in this thread:

1)Someone forgot not to address my posts. That means I will repeat this once again:

Please do not address my posts.

2)Secondly, it would be helpful to read the BB&Q post on using capitalization in threads. There are policies that are discussed in terms of that notion.

3)Thirdly, it is an extremely insulting thread. However, I do not need your permission in terms of staying or going.

4)Again, I ask, why is there this sense of superiority? Why do you feel that you have to tell people of color exactly what they should do? Why must you wag your finger at them?

5)50 Cent, Oprah Winfrey and Will Smith still covers a small sample of a still complicated topic. Mentioning their names once or twice does not prove anything. There still isn't a working definition of what is deemed "successful" or "intelligent" or "achieving". There still isn't a definition of what "Oreo" or "Uncle Tom" means. And, still there isn't a comprehensive study of what these figures did. Instead, the emphasis still falls on conservative Blacks and their achievements and words, which is still very problematic in proving the theory of "successful Blacks".

I think it's time to put up a scale of what one deems "successful" and "intelligent".

From your sample, it seems that "success" and "intelligence" is measured in terms of monetary earnings and political leanings compared to scant evidence about educational backgrounds or endeavors in public life. What about all the other hard-working Black individuals who are very "successful" and "intelligent" ? Should they not be included in the sample of names? What about their endeavors in public life, motivations, and actions?

How can one measure "success" and "intelligence" on still a very limited and biased definition?

[edit on 31-1-2007 by ceci2006]



posted on Jan, 31 2007 @ 08:55 AM
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Originally posted by HarlemHottie
*I know that's new information to you, but I would be happy to confirm it through a mod.


After all we've said to each other, you think I would doubt your word? Why would I believe a mod over a person I highly respect, with whom I have established a personal relationship and been through the trenches???
I believe you because you said it. No need to get confirmation from someone else I hardly know. :shk:


Originally posted by semperfortis
The only true intellectual, objectionably, defensible independent variable is why these insults seem to be specific to the black race.


And I've decided that it's none of my business.
These insults don't hurt me. Ultimately, they don't hurt white people (very much) at all. The only people they actually hurt are the people who do the insulting and those on the receiving end. And if a culture wants to have that going on inside their own culture and they defend the action, why should I care?

Aside from the "bigger picture" humanity issue, of course. And just as I can't control it when some black people use the N-word with each other (even though I am not permitted to use it -- and wouldn't if I were), I can't control that they insult their high-achievers with race-based derogatory names.

But I do think it makes it all the more clear that white people aren't the only people who practice racism. A black person calling someone they resent "white" or some other slang white term is racist. People can deny that all day long, but it's no different than a white person calling someone they resent "black" or some other slang black term.


Originally posted by ceci2006
Hence again, the true motives of this thread: to give validation only to conservative Blacks, but not all achieving Blacks.


That's simply not true. Oprah is conservative? 50 cent is conservative? Will Smith? Barack Obama??? You're only talking about one person's posts. A conservative person. There are others posting in this thread.




What is the definition of an "Oreo" or an "Uncle Tom"?


You'll have to tell me. I (and my race) do not use those terms.



Let me pose this question: is it just easier for some whites to "speak for" the Black Community instead of listen to a variety of voices from Black people--apart from those who are conservative?


No. Nobody is speaking for the black race (except for you). I have listened to a variety of black voices, some of whom disagree with the black posters here. Who am I to believe?

I respect Barack Obama greatly. He's neither conservative, nor does he support the idea of blacks calling other blacks "white" because they have a book in their hand. He says it must stop. If I were black, I think I'd listen to him.


Originally posted by ceci2006
I agree that there is a lot of guilt being expressed here.


And you accuse us of speaking for the black community??? Bah!


[edit on 31-1-2007 by Benevolent Heretic]



posted on Jan, 31 2007 @ 09:11 AM
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Originally posted by ceci2006
Please do not address my posts ... I'll repeat my request again and again until you stop.


You can repeat it all you like. However, this is a discussion board and people are free to respond to anyone they wish. You cannot control who addresses you or your posts. You cannot control what other people do. If you feel you have received this message in error, please use the Complain Feature.



Secondly, it would be helpful to read the BB&Q post on using capitalization in threads. There are policies that are discussed in terms of that notion.


The policy forbids the use of ALL CAPS. There's nothing wrong with using caps to accent a word or phrase. If you feel you have received this message in error, please use the Complain Feature.



I do not need your permission in terms of staying or going.


Nor does anyone need your permission to address you or your posts.



50 Cent, Oprah Winfrey and Will Smith still covers a small sample of a still complicated topic.


Dr. Rice and Colin Powell represent even a smaller sample.


[edit on 31-1-2007 by Benevolent Heretic]



posted on Jan, 31 2007 @ 09:14 AM
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Originally quoted by Benevolent Heretic

No. Nobody is speaking for the black race (except for you).


I am? Would you please point out where I have stated so, verbatim?


I have listened to a variety of black voices, some of whom disagree with the black posters here. Who am I to believe?


I'm glad that you have opened your mind to listen to a variety of Black voices. You have gone a lot further than most. You have to use your best judgement in terms of belief.


I respect Barack Obama greatly. He's neither conservative, nor does he support the idea of blacks calling other blacks "white" because they have a book in their hand. He says it must stop. If I were black, I think I'd listen to him.


That is fine and well. I also respect Barack Obama. However, it would be helpful to find a study that statistically measures how frequently blacks do this. Anecdotal evidence always needs to be backed up. How about some research?

Naming names doesn't always convey good evidence. There needs to be something to flesh such theories out.


And you accuse us of speaking for the black community??? Bah!


It's not an accusation. Unfortunately, on this board it is quite frequently done. And, it is very sad that all of these people who "claim to know" what the Black Community does without actually listening from those in the Black community. Instead, they would rather resort to the old stereotypes and repeat them ad nauseum. Something needs to change. At least I hope.

Believe me, BH, when I say that I laud your efforts in trying to bridge the gap. I am very touched and glad that you have tried to do so. However, this thread and its issues are quite more complicated than the simple naming of names and deeming them a "credit to their race". I thank you for putting the questions out there and making observances on the subject matter. Let's see whether we can do something to stop the semantic disconnect that seems to be happening in these issues and change things for the better.


Oh, and by the way:



You can repeat it all you like. However, this is a discussion board and people are free to respond to anyone they wish. You cannot control who addresses you or your posts. You cannot control what other people do. If you feel you have received this message in error, please use the Complain Feature.


I have addressed the issue with the mods. I appreciate you asking. However, I do not need your permission or advice on this matter.



The policy forbids the use of ALL CAPS.


Thank you for stating the policy. It shows that there isn't a semantic disconnect here.


There's nothing wrong with using caps to accent a word or phrase.


Did a mod say this was so?

Back on topic, I still think it would be helpful for the thread if there were a broader sample of Black achievement (thanks, HH again for bringing in your sources). Furthermore, it would be helpful if there was a definition of what defines "success" and "intelligence" so that we can have a scale to measure exactly how and why this terminology is being used in this thread. After all, we have a hypothesis. Now, we have to have adequate evidence to test out whether the theories in the OP are valid on a wider societal basis crossing class, sexual orientation and political affiliation.


Another question to be asked is whether "success" and "intelligence" is being defined by those in the dominant culture? Or is "success" and "intelligence" being defined by Black people? It would be helpful to note this, so that the murkiness of measuring these aspects would be a bit more clear.

[edit on 31-1-2007 by ceci2006]



posted on Jan, 31 2007 @ 09:45 AM
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(1)

In other words. White = derogatory.


(2)To which HarlemHottie replied, intending perhaps (?) to appear disingenuous


Wow, how did you get that? I would think you would have surmised that 'white=successful.' That's what I had gathered, just from hearing it used in conversation.


Riiiiiight.

From this, we're forced to the conclusion that when those-who-would-be-black refer to Rice, Powell etc. as 'Oreos' and Aunt Jemimas, what they REALLY wish us to understand is that they are COMPLIMENTING them !

As in: ' Rice, you Aunt Jemima Oreo you ------ you're just so SUCCESSFUL ! '

Really?

And the reference to Oreos is merely incidental ?

* ANY * cookie would suffice, would it ?

Why the reference to any cookie at all ?

According to HarlemHottie, when those who identify primarily as black referred to Oprah as a 'middle aged white woman', all they really meant to imply was that Oprah is a 'SUCCESSFUL' Middle-aged Woman.

That correct?

HarlemHottie: why do those who choose to identify primarily as 'black' not then dispense with 'white' and 'Oreo' and simply say what *YOU* say they actually mean, e.g. .... ' Oprah and Rice and Powell are successful ' ?

Could it be because *despite* your 'interpretation', that is NOT what they mean?

Could it be that *despite* your denial (quoted above) the following *IS* correct:-

In other words. White = derogatory.


Which returns us to the apparent conviction (amongst those who would be black rather than simply American) that White=Successful=Derogatory.

As in:- Rice, Powell, Winfrey=Successful=White=Derogatory.

And that benefits whom ?

How ?

Further, it has not yet been explained WHY those who choose to identify as 'black' (rather than as simply 'American') believe that Rice, Powell, Winfrey etc. should conform to 'black' philosophies and/or agendas (whatever they may be).

DO those who consider themselves part of the 'black' (as opposed to simply American) community believe that ANYONE with darker skin *SHOULD* identify as 'black' ... rather than as simply American ?

Is this based purely on skin colour ?

Do those who identify as 'black' (rather than as simply American) believe themselves justified in 'claiming' all those with darker complexion and dictating the ways in which they 'should' behave and conduct their lives and careers ?

These are valid enquiries.

There are numerous red-haired individuals, but they are not 'claimed' by others with a degree of redness in their hair, or reviled for their successes or compared to specifically-coloured cookies, any more than those of Asian extraction are expected to devote their energies to the satisfaction of others who 'appear' somewhat Asian.

ALL Dutchmen are not required or expected to grow tulips.

ALL Scotsmen are not required or expected to wear kilts and eat porridge.

*WHY* then, do darker complexioned folk in the US believe that all SUCCESSFUL darker complexioned individuals *OWE* them something --OWE it to all other darker complexioned folk to behave (and not behave) in certain ways with the emphasis being on strict obedience to the edict that they must NOT behave 'as whites do' ?

How DO 'whites' behave?

What PARTICULAR behaviour of 'whites' do darker complexioned individuals *allegedly* find so disturbing and objectionable?

If we examine Condoleeza Rice, Colin Powell and Oprah Winfrey for example, what conclusions do we reach regarding their behaviour (claimed to be 'white' behaviour) ?

They are confident. Assertive. Articulate. Informed. Take pride in their appearance. Respected. Law-abiding. Well-connected. Accomplished. Private, considering their celebrity. Posses strong character. Successful in their chosen field. etc.

What, specifically, do people with varying degrees of dark complexion who live in the US find so objectionable about the above behaviours, whether demonstrated by 'whites' or anyone else?

And WHEN --- at what juncture in life or degree of darker pigmentation -- does an individual become claimed as 'black' (by those who choose to identify as 'black' rather that as simply American) ?

At WHAT point does the self-proclaimed 'black' community relinquish an individual and 'ALLOW' him to be his own person, free from the dictates and disparagement of those who identify as 'black' ?

Colin Powell is a very fair complexioned man. WHY should he be made to feel he *owes* anything to those who choose to identify as 'black' ? Why instead, should he not believe his only obligation is to the general US population ? Why shouldn't he identify with his non-black ancestors ?

Is anyone suggesting the measure of Colin Powell is determined by the shade of his complexion ??????

Who *IS* it who is running around with a slide-rule and colour-chart in order to determine which individuals must cross the line and swear loyalty to 'black' factions within the US population ?



posted on Jan, 31 2007 @ 10:19 AM
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Originally posted by ceci2006
Would you please point out where I have stated so, verbatim?


No. I have asked you a million times to please show me where I said things that you accused me saying and you have NEVER obliged.

People will just have to read your posts again and decide for themselves.



However, it would be helpful to find a study that statistically measures how frequently blacks do this. Anecdotal evidence always needs to be backed up. How about some research?


Check out my last post:

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
And I've decided that it's none of my business.
These insults don't hurt me. Ultimately, they don't hurt white people (very much) at all. The only people they actually hurt are the people who do the insulting and those on the receiving end. And if a culture wants to have that going on inside their own culture and they defend the action, why should I care?


And recall:


Originally posted by ceci2006
Why do you care? How does someone being called an "Uncle Tom" or an "Oreo" affect your life?


I don't. It doesn't. Go for it. Have a blast.



Did a mod say this was so?


Yes. In the thread you mentioned. The Use of ALL CAPS

There is no prohibition on the use of Caps. It's the use of ALL CAPS that is the problem.


Originally posted by kinglizard

Originally posted by loam
Is it a problem to do this with a SINGLE word or phrase within the body of a post?


There isn't any problem using ALL-CAPS on selective words within a post bud. The problem is with the readability of an entire post or thread titles (all or partially) typed using all capitalized words.



posted on Jan, 31 2007 @ 10:24 AM
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Thank you for pointing it out. I am glad that you were able to do the research on the problem of all caps. I appreciate the extra work in terms of getting to the bottom of this.

It shows that you can do the research when it is necessary. Now, let's see that hard work happen in this topic.



posted on Jan, 31 2007 @ 10:27 AM
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Originally posted by ceci2006
Someone forgot not to address my posts. That means I will repeat this once again: Please do not address my posts.


I didn't 'forget' anything. This is a public forum not your own personal echochamber. You post .. people respond. Deal with it. If you can't deal with it, that's YOUR problem. Go start your own website.


Originally posted by ceci2006
Secondly, it would be helpful to read the BB&Q post on using capitalization in threads. There are policies that are discussed in terms of that notion.


YOU go read them.
Your insinuation that I broke the rules is wrong.


Originally posted by ceci2006
Why do you feel that you have to tell people of color exactly what they should do?


Why do YOU feel that you have to tell people with non-black skin exactly what they should do?

The author asked why this happens. That in no way is telling black people what to do. It's asking why a phenomenon, that is well established as fact, happens.


Why must you wag your finger at them?


Stating the fact that this phenomenon is real is not 'wagging a finger'. It's stating a fact. Your continual denial of the real phenomenon of successful black prejudice does not help the author of this thread receive an answer to his question.

edited for spelling once.

[edit on 1/31/2007 by FlyersFan]



posted on Jan, 31 2007 @ 10:37 AM
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I just have one thing to say until there is a more of a definition which measures "success" and "intelligence" in order to measure a broader sample of what is deemed Black acheivement:

FlyersFan, please do not answer my posts

I will repeat this again and again until you stop. Your posts, FF, are personal harassment and attacks toward me, especially with the use of capitalization and emoticons. It also demonstrates an inability to comply with the moderators on the site.




[edit on 31-1-2007 by ceci2006]



posted on Jan, 31 2007 @ 10:58 AM
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Originally posted by semperfortis
I believe the end result here is very simple..

IT IS Insulting behavior!!!

Semper, I am very surprised at you. You should have been clearer in your OP.

Like I told BH, if the purpose of this thread was "How Should White People Feel About Blacks Using the Term 'Acting White'?", I would have avoided it. I thought you asked the original question because you wanted to know WHY. I see now that this was intended as a thread solely to rant and rave against blacks.

Silly me.




To spend post after post attempting to validate, explain or excuse it is irrational at best.

...which must also imply that your original question was equally irrational.




behavior that does no good for any of the parties involved.

I don't think anyone is claiming that it does any good. You asked why; we told you.



The only true intellectual, objectionably, defensible independent variable is why these insults seem to be specific to the black race.

BS. BH, and you now, keep saying this, but you refuse to do any research. So, how could you possibly know "the only true intellectual, objectionably, defensible independent variable"?




Then why are you continually here? Why stay and be insulted?

I know you weren't talking to me here, but I also find this thread insulting. You tricked us into this conversation by asking a relatively simple question, why?, when it turns out, that's not what you wanted to discuss at all.



Originally posted by ceci2006
is it just easier for some whites to "speak for" the Black Community instead of listen to a variety of voices from Black people--apart from those who are conservative?

You know, Ceci, I'm beginning to think so, but I would be interested in the replies of other posters. I'm not white; how could I know?



Originally posted by FlyersFan
Oprah and Will Smith were dicussed and they definately are NOT conservative....They use the word 'white' as a cuss or a put down, like it's a bad thing.

Let me clear up an apparent misunderstanding: "Acting White" does not equal "Sell-out." They are two different things.

The first describes a state (which itself is believed to be different, but neutral/ can go either way), the second, a specific action (which is always considered negative).

Oprah would be described as 'acting white,' but not neccessarily a 'sell-out'.

Will Smith would be described as sometimes 'acting white,' but definitely not a 'sell-out.'

Dr. Rice would be described as 'acting white,' and a 'sell-out.'

...unless of course, you wish to continue to deny the difference, otherwise known as 'embracing ignorance.'


Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
After all we've said to each other, you think I would doubt your word?

That was more of an invitation for everyone.



I believe you because you said it.

Then why won't you believe me on anything else?



And if a culture wants to have that going on inside their own culture and they defend the action, why should I care?

Again, no one is defending it.

We've been trying to answer the original question, but it seems like there's another conversation going on here that wasn't properly introduced.



Originally posted by ceci2006
What is the definition of an "Oreo" or an "Uncle Tom"?

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
You'll have to tell me. I (and my race) do not use those terms.


Which is exactly the point. Who are you to tell us how we use the word?



posted on Jan, 31 2007 @ 11:10 AM
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Originally posted by ceci2006
It also demonstrates an inability to comply with the moderators on the site.


The moderators have not told anyone to treat this thread, or any other, as an outlet to use as a personal, uncontested, platform. The moderators have not told me that I have limited posting privileges. If you don't want to hear responses to your posts or information that counters your statements, then use the ignore feature. That's what it's there for.

ON TOPIC


Originally posted by HarlemHottie
Let me clear up an apparent misunderstanding: "Acting White" does not equal "Sell-out." They are two different things.


AHHHHHHHH. Okay. Got it.


HH ... why is 'acting white' a bad thing? It is used in a negative manner ... a put down. Why? Thank you.



posted on Jan, 31 2007 @ 12:03 PM
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Originally posted by FlyersFan
HH ... why is 'acting white' a bad thing? It is used in a negative manner ... a put down. Why? Thank you.

Thank you, FF, for asking so politely.


To answer your question, it isn't always used in a negative manner. There is some nuance to it. That's why I mentioned before that people often say the same thing about me, not in attempt to be "disingenuous."

It's used as a 'put down' when the subject not only 'acts white', but is also considered condescending to other black people who don't also 'act white.'

Case in point, the way the term has been applied to me over the course of my life: When I was younger, it was used as an insult, because I didn't spend a lot of time playing with the kids in my building. They felt that I was purposefully distancing myself from them, simply because they didn't also 'act white.'

As I got older, my schedule changed and I spent more time at home. That's when they realized that I hadn't been 'looking down' on them, and stopped using the term as an insult. They still use it, though, and I'm not offended in anyway. I have no reason to be.

In fact, I think they're proud that a well-educated black person who 'acts white' would even be their friend, which is sad, because it indicates how rarely such friendships occur. That's more of an indictment of those who 'act white' than those who don't, I think, because all they have to do is appear friendly, which, I can tell you from personal experience, they don't.

Anyway, all of that is to say, Oprah and Condi are viewed as 'acting white' because they not only 'act white' but they also seem condescending to a large portion of the black community, poor blacks.

Did I answer your question adequately?

edit to add: I forgot to mention, black people also use another, more accurate word to describe this behavior, 'bougie', derived from 'bourgeois' ("conforming to the standards and conventions of the middle class; "a bourgeois mentality").




[edit on 31-1-2007 by HarlemHottie]



posted on Jan, 31 2007 @ 12:27 PM
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Originally posted by HarlemHottie
Like I told BH, if the purpose of this thread was "How Should White People Feel About Blacks Using the Term 'Acting White'?", I would have avoided it.


I'm curious how you think you know Semper's mind. He has said what the purpose of the thread was. He's been very honest and clear so far and yet you and Ceci insist he has other motives. Basically, you're accusing him of lying. Now, I agree with Semper on about 1% of life issues, but I know him well enough to know that he's an honorable, honest sort of fellow and he doesn't deserve to be accused of being underhanded, as he has been MANY times in this thread.

And when you judged that the thread had turned hostile towards blacks, you could have left. You can begin avoidance at any time.

The original post DOES ask why. When that was figured out, I started wondering about other aspects of the phenomenon. This happens in threads. They meander through several aspects of the original subject and that's how I see what is happening here. I don't see any subversive intent and nobody's trying to trick you.




BS. BH, and you now, keep saying this, but you refuse to do any research.


I have done lots of research about this. Just because I don't post reams of excerpts doesn't mean I haven't researched it. I have also read every bit of research (excerpts) posted by you and Ceci several times.

Here are just some of the sources I've read while involved in this thread:

When Black Isn't Black Enough
An Empirical Analysis of Acting White
The Price of Acting White

And as I have said before, I don't need to do research for my opinion.



Then why won't you believe me on anything else?


What? I believe everything you say! I don't agree with your opinion 100% of the time, but you know I trust and believe you! I can't believe you said that.



Again, no one is defending it.


Ok.



We've been trying to answer the original question, but it seems like there's another conversation going on here that wasn't properly introduced.


It's that thread meandering thing I mentioned earlier. You have answered the original question, but that doesn't mean the thread has to die. There are other aspects to be discussed obviously.

I'm a curious person. Not only that, I've been trying to learn and understand more about my fellow Americans of the black persuasion. I'm told that's a Good Thing. I'm wondering, though. It seems it's ok as long as I ask the right questions, believe everything I'm told buy the right authorities on black people and stay on topic. Once I start believing the wrong authorities, delving into the tougher issues or have a strong opinion that disagrees with the aforementioned right authorities, I seem to get 'discouraged' in one way or another.

I'm telling you. This is NOT easy from this side of this issue.



Which is exactly the point. Who are you to tell us how we use the word?



I'm nobody. But I can read. I can hear. I have a reasoning and discerning mind. I don't have to be a black person to see what's going on here!
I'm not telling you how you do anything. I'm telling you what I see, hear and read.



posted on Jan, 31 2007 @ 12:45 PM
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Originally posted by HarlemHottie
Did I answer your question adequately?


Excellent. Thank you. You expressed it at just the right angle so I THINK I can see where you are coming from a bit better. I'm going to go ponder that.


edited for spelling once.


[edit on 1/31/2007 by FlyersFan]



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