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Successful Black Prejudice

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posted on Feb, 1 2007 @ 06:06 AM
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Originally posted by ceci2006

Still, no one has set up a statistical measure of how many blacks are deemed successful; no one defines "success" and "intellect" so that there is a guideline; and no one cares to explain the phenomena as it is (except Duzey and HH
). Instead, because someone from the dominant culture claims "it is real", it is assumed that the rest of us have to fall into that camp and believe "it is real" too. In fact, those from the "majority" try to force the matter, waiting for one of the "minorities" to say so--with little fan-fare and lots of vicious ridicule.


A statistical measure of who is deemed successful? No one defines success? Are you kidding me? Sure, I will come up with a statistical measure of who is deemed successful as soon as I am done working on my happiness matrix, is that alright?

This kind of semantical non-sense is the exact reason that academia is a joke right now. Instead of adding something useful to the conversation you want to bring up individuality, question that the issue exists, then suggest that the terms being used are un-clear and need further clarification. You are playing the intellectual equivalent of chasing your tail. Only difference is: animals that chase their tails don't get others involved.

You also seem to have an issue with the fact that there are many white people discussing the issue, almost as if in an accusatory tone, why is that?

Here's a definition for you: Success in America is usually thought of as upward social mobility, plain and simple. When one looks at the questions and examples given in the original post, it is obviously one of, if not the only definition that is intended.

It (black scorn at other, more successful blacks) is a real phenomenon usually accompanied by inherently racist terms that some blacks and some whites both see, and try to understand, which this thread is a perfect example of. Why is it that you want to try to play semantics instead of dealing with and discussing the very real issue?

[edit on 1-2-2007 by phoenixhasrisin]




posted on Feb, 1 2007 @ 06:11 AM
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Originally posted by HarlemHottie

Originally posted by jsobecky
You have 60 seconds to summarize and present the facts to your boss, so that he/she can answer his/her boss.

What are you going to say about this thread?

Jso, please.

With all the time you spent psychoanalyzing it, I'm sure you must have actually read the words at some point.

Oh honey, but we have to talk about it! Please answer my questions.


C'mon, HH don't wimp out on me now. What's your beef about this thread. In your own words?



posted on Feb, 1 2007 @ 06:24 AM
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Originally posted by jsobecky
C'mon, HH don't wimp out on me now. What's your beef about this thread. In your own words?

Jso, if you need me to hold your hand and re-state what Ceci said, I refuse to play that game with you. You're a grown-up. Go back and read it yourself.

Don't wimp out on us.



posted on Feb, 1 2007 @ 06:30 AM
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Originally posted by HarlemHottie

Originally posted by jsobecky
C'mon, HH don't wimp out on me now. What's your beef about this thread. In your own words?

Jso, if you need me to hold your hand and re-state what Ceci said, I refuse to play that game with you. You're a grown-up. Go back and read it yourself.

Don't wimp out on us.

Oh, OK, now I get it. Ceci is the Alpha female and speaks for you.

That's fine, I'll just wait for her to respond. You can go back to the self-nurturing responses.



posted on Feb, 1 2007 @ 06:50 AM
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Originally posted by jsobecky

It was in response to this comment you made:

I think the basis for the ridicule lies in the fact that most successful black people turn their back's on their community as soon as they make it out.

It may seem that blacks immediately turn their backs on their community as soon as they make it out, but that is rarely the case. More often, there are family dynamics going on which we are not privy to and which are never seen.

And what are you asking, as far as communities?


Ah, I get your meaning now. I didn't mean on a small scale like that though. I meant more on the scale of Majic, which is why I used him as an example.

Before the nasty virus thing Majic was practically worshiped in the community. He was a genuine public figure, who was a positive role model that worked to improve the community in many ways.

Most neuveau riche blacks think that they are helping the hood by getting their boys off of the block with a B.S. job, or as part of their paid entourage, which at the end of the day leaves the community exactly as it was when they left. Majic bought businesses, created jobs, tried to address and change the root problems of the community.



posted on Feb, 1 2007 @ 06:51 AM
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Jso, you're totally derailing the thread with your drama.

Either read it, or have someone read it to you.



posted on Feb, 1 2007 @ 07:09 AM
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Originally posted by phoenixhasrisin
Before the nasty virus thing Majic was practically worshiped in the community. He was a genuine public figure, who was a positive role model that worked to improve the community in many ways.

He's still Majic in my eyes. Remembering him and Bird dueling it out; those days will never be re-created. Two of the best.


Most neuveau riche blacks think that they are helping the hood by getting their boys off of the block with a B.S. job, or as part of their paid entourage, which at the end of the day leaves the community exactly as it was when they left. Majic bought businesses, created jobs, tried to address and change the root problems of the community.

There aren't too many people like him, who devote their energy and resources back to the communities. But they do exist. Most celebs just write a check.

And the job they give to someone can help, can be a positive influence. Nobody has the power to just flip a switch and change the world; it's got to be done one step at a time. People got to wake up and realize that they only get one go-round. Everybody thinks they will live forever, so they put it off until "tomorrow".



posted on Feb, 1 2007 @ 07:14 AM
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Originally posted by HarlemHottie
Jso, you're totally derailing the thread with your drama.

Either read it, or have someone read it to you.


Look, it's already been determined that you don't speak for yourself here. We'll just wait for someone else to stand up.

I can't believe that you were so easy to get to; all I did was to ask you for your summary of the thread, and you fell apart.



posted on Feb, 1 2007 @ 07:17 AM
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Question to phoenixhasrisin: Do you know how Majic is doing these days? I haven't seen him in public for a long time, over a year. He had put on some pounds when I saw him last.



posted on Feb, 1 2007 @ 07:22 AM
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Originally posted by jsobecky
There aren't too many people like him, who devote their energy and resources back to the communities. But they do exist. Most celebs just write a check.

And the job they give to someone can help, can be a positive influence. Nobody has the power to just flip a switch and change the world; it's got to be done one step at a time. People got to wake up and realize that they only get one go-round. Everybody thinks they will live forever, so they put it off until "tomorrow".


You are right, the job is at least something, and something on a more substantial level at that.

I was just trying to point out that there are successful black people who are well spoken, and do not get flack from the community in any way shape or form. It's all about what they do for their community though.

It's not about acting "white", dressing "white", or moving out of the hood, it's about what you do for the hood once you're out.



posted on Feb, 1 2007 @ 07:31 AM
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A couple other prominent blacks who get flack regularly are Thomas Sowell and Bill Cosby. Remember when Bill Cosby was aying many of the same things that have been said here while on speaking tours? He got nothing but flack. People in his own community were appaulled that he mocked "ebonics" and hip-hop cultutre. They were appaulled that he suggested they stop blaming everything on the "white man" and take care of themselves for a change.

I think there are plenty of Cosbys out there. They just wont speak up because the community by and large doesnt want to hear it. Like moderate muslims wont speak up en-masse because theyre afraid theyll be killed.

Everybody seems afraid to do the right thing. We're all at the mercy of bullies.
Thank you political correctness.



posted on Feb, 1 2007 @ 08:06 AM
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Originally posted by phoenixhasrisin
It's not about acting "white", dressing "white", or moving out of the hood, it's about what you do for the hood once you're out.

You're absolutely right. This is what I was trying to say.

The only reason we kept coming back to "acting white," the term itself, was because BH and a few other people were upset by its use. That's really where our attention was focussed for a while, just on the, '...but why do they say it?' We ended up getting mired in the historical reasons why they phrased it that way instead of the larger point.

I would have preferred to move along myself.



posted on Feb, 1 2007 @ 10:06 AM
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Anyone ever heard of Jack and Jill?

Me neither, until yesterday. Apparently, it's some kind of social club that only "certain" people are allowed into; furthermore, you can't apply to it, you have to be invited.

And no, I don't mean white people, I mean black people. But, only certain ones. Can you guess which ones? Blacks with money, of course, but more importantly, those who have a skin tone similar to the complexion for the protection.

Couple that with the history of black Greek organizations using the "brown paper bag test" to see who got in. These frats/sororities would actually tape a paper bag to the door, and any black who was darker than the bag was not allowed in.

What's the point of this? It shows one reason a number of blacks have what you call "successful black prejudice." Btw, this term is a misnomer, IMO. It should be called "successful black sellout prejudice."

Do you see blacks talking down on Amare Stoudamire? How about Damon Dash? Quincy Jones? Chris Rock?

No. What you see is people talking down on Condoleeza Rice, Bill Cosby, and others of their ilk.

I've noticed a lot of white posters cite the words Bill Cosby had for the black community quite readily. How ironic that a guy whose television show helped cement the sentiments that poor blacks are to blame for their condition is running his mouth in this way. Hell, in a civil rights class I took, we talked about how his show actually HELPED reinforce negative
stereotypes about blacks.

A sellout, regardless of race, is a sellout, plain and simple.



posted on Feb, 1 2007 @ 10:11 AM
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Originally posted by truthseeka
How ironic that a guy whose television show helped cement the sentiments that poor blacks are to blame for their condition ....


I just thought it was a good, entertaining, show. When I watched it I wasn't watching with anything in mind other than being entertained. It was a great show. Funny and sometimes serious (dyslexia for example). It wasn't preachy (like West Wing got). I never once thought anything about skin color. It was just fun family entertainment.



posted on Feb, 1 2007 @ 10:22 AM
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Originally posted by truthseeka
No. What you see is people talking down on Condoleeza Rice, Bill Cosby, and others of their ilk.

I've noticed a lot of white posters cite the words Bill Cosby had for the black community quite readily. How ironic that a guy whose television show helped cement the sentiments that poor blacks are to blame for their condition is running his mouth in this way. Hell, in a civil rights class I took, we talked about how his show actually HELPED reinforce negative
stereotypes about blacks.

A sellout, regardless of race, is a sellout, plain and simple.


Im sure I just dont understand this one. How does a black doctor married to a black lawyer in New York whos kids get into decent universities and have a spin-off show of their own where the vast majority of students are themselves black perpetuate negative stereotypes? Watching that show growing up is one of the reasons I believe anyone can do anything in America. Cosby himself came from a messed up mother in a messed up community who had absolutely nothing, fatherless in Philly. Oprahs another one.

If anything theyre proof that the American dream is alive and available to anyone willing to work for it. You just have to stop whinning and complaining then you have to take care of what needs to be taken care of. Educations free, food is virtually free, housing is nearly free, you can get someone to hold your hand and find a job for you all for free. And people still cant do it? I was on this assistance myself for a period. It sucked. Good motivation to get off of it.

Im not buying that its anyones fault but their own. Unless theyve chosen to live their lives below the poverty line, ducking bullets and spending all their free time in front of the TV. Those people have nothing to complain about. They got exactly what they wanted.



posted on Feb, 1 2007 @ 10:51 AM
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Originally posted by ceci2006
Nobody expected Black people to reply to this thread.


That's BS. You have just said what the white people on this thread expected, but heaven forbid one of us should tell you what we've observed in REAL LIFE about what black people think or feel. You may think that everyone thinks in terms of race but you're wrong. You're speaking for all the white people on ATS when you say things like this, and then chastise us if we even deign to suspect what black people think or feel.


Originally posted by ceci2006
Some from the dominant culture who uses opinion as a way of "proof"


More BS. Nobody has tried to pass their opinion off as proof of anything. I would ask you to show me where but I know that’s pointless.


Originally posted by ceci2006
Instead, it has to do with who is perceived as more credible in this thread and the attempts to reinforce that credibility, with or without any proof.


I have been getting flack (privately) all along in these 'discussions' because I have been told that I'm perceived as credible by the board at large. I've been told (privately) that it's important that I don't give the wrong message because people believe me.

Well, not once have I asserted my opinion as proof of anything, yet I constantly get accused of that. And I'm ALLOWED to have and express my opinion about my experiences. If you want to be believed, then perhaps you should work on your credibility, because frankly, it could use some work. It's not my fault that people have their opinions of your words.

People believe me for a reason!



people just want it confirmed as "real" (by Black people) so that they have something else in their ammunition to use.


We don't need anything confirmed from you of all people. We can read. We can see. We can hear. Your confirmation means absolutely nothing to me. Ammunition? For one thing, “people” don’t need any more ammunition if that’s what they’re looking for. There’s free ammunition everywhere. We don’t have to drag it out of you. Secondly, it says a lot about your own intentions that you assume “people” are scouting for ammunition to attack you. That is what ammunition is for. Attacks.


Originally posted by HarlemHottie
The author is comparing three different theories, two of which he believes are incorrect.


I don't really care what the author of this particular source believes. My beliefs are as valid as his. My point is that the theories exist. Are you saying that Fordham and Ogbu are the only people who believe the evil "white people" theory?



In the 15 years since this article was published in the Urban Review, the "acting White" hypothesis has gotten much attention, often uncritically, in the media (Gregory, 1992; Suskind, 1994; Pearson, 1994; Lewin, 2000). Fordham (1988; 1996) has published other works expanding on the original 1986 article, and the "acting White" hypothesis has been cited, again usually without criticism, in other major academic works (e.g. Massey & Denton, 1993; McLaren, 1998). Additionally, popular books seeking to exploit the deficit-oriented, cultural deprivation arguments about African Americans and education have also made wide use of the "acting White" hypothesis (e.g. McWhorter, 2000; see Gunn, Harpalani, & Brooks, 2001 for a critique).
Source


Their theory is largely uncriticized. I have posted a source that actually criticizes their theory, but my purpose is simply to show that the theory exists, many people buy it and that it's largely unchallenged by the black (or white) community.



Those are the findings of two people. They could very well be wrong. In fact, the author explicitly says they're wrong.


This is a perfect example of being able to find sources that support any opinion. Now who do we believe? The source you posted or Fordham and Ogbu? According to you and Ceci, I should wait for you two to tell me which one to believe because you're black and you know the Truth about it.


Originally posted by HarlemHottie
The definition of 'success' is important to this conversation


I have my own personal definition of success, but for the purpose of this thread, I think it means: Famous, wealthy, well-known, celebrity or all of the above.


Originally posted by HarlemHottie
Some posters are just extra-rude in these conversations, for no apparent reason.


Most of us have been rude. And just because you can't see or understand the reason, doesn't mean it isn't there. You've been rude directly to me for what I saw as "no apparent reason", so it's not just "some posters". It's a matter of perception. One man's 'rude' is another man's 'straightforward'.



When I first posted Fryer and Austin-Smith's conclusion... Those who did read it attempted to find flaws. Even when they couldn't, the paper was dismissed anyway. How do I know? Because, several pages later, they're still saying the same thing.



I read it. I acknowledged it. I agreed with it (and once Duzey posted her references) I went on to discover other sources where white people have race-related names for other white people. What do you want?

It seems like you want 100% agreement or else “people are just close minded”.



How can we be expected to have an intelligent, forward-looking conversation about race when people won't even consider the latest (and best thus far) theories?


Let me tell you something. I used to be a huge ally of the black cause. But the more I delve into it and try to understand, the more I hear that I'm to blame for your condition. Not one person has addressed the "white people" misnomer that I have brought up MANY times. Not one person seems willing to correct their speech to blame the right people. It's just so easy to utter "white people". No doubt because that's what you've been taught.

Well, I've heard it enough. Go ahead and blame white people. Blame me! Think whatever you want about us because I no longer care. My discussions on this board have resulted in me pulling back from any interest I had in understanding the problem.

I have had assumptions leveled at me by black people in these threads that were solely because I'm white and I'm not supposed to take offense because I'm seen as part of the "dominant culture" simply because of the color of my skin. I'm just supposed to take it because I'm seen as deserving it.

And you ask how we're supposed to have an intelligent conversation about race???

Just to put this in perspective, what if I said to you:

"I'm assuming your participation in this thread is from your jail cell and that you miss your 5 babies from different fathers, who probably called you all sorts of nasty names (like ”hos” and “bitches”). I know you probably only have a 6th grade education (correct me if I'm wrong)
but you have to face the fact that affirmative action is there for you.

"I understand that you blame white people for your being in jail and all that, but you need to pull yourself up realize that you have to get off the crack before you can have a halfway decent life. Now I know the babies' fathers probably don't pay you any child support (You tell them they should be sending you child support instead of buying diamonds for their teeth!) and your oldest is probably in a gang, but you have to face the fact that it's your responsibility to keep your kids in school.

"Now, I know white people are partially to blame, but most of the responsibility clearly falls on black America. You mistakenly believe that racism is what's keeping you down. Honey, racism was gone long ago! Please stop beating that old horse and get with it!
We welcome you people in our world these days. I know some really nice black people from church and they're just fine. Why I even let the lady borrow my potluck dish without a second thought as to whether she'd return it!

"So, pick yourself up and do something with your life. You'll be a lot happier, believe me.
I know you may not like hearing this, but that's just the way it is today."


That’s how I feel I’m being talked to in these threads. The above is an exaggeration, but it’s meant to get a message across. And so I addressed the assumptions and it’s been answered. But no apology. It’s like I should just roll with it because I’m white. It’s ok to assume that white people are racist. Because everyone knows most of them are.


So, how can we be expected to have an intelligent, forward-looking conversation about race? We can’t. Not when “talking about race” actually means “black people educating white people about how it is.” Because we may be white, but we have a “how it is”, too.



When it comes to what 'we think', it looks like posters have their opinions, and that's that.


Right back at ya. I can say all day what I think only to be told otherwise. You can’t tell me what ‘black people think’. You can only tell me what you think.

Sorry this is so long but I have a lot to say. And there's more.



[edit on 1-2-2007 by Benevolent Heretic]



posted on Feb, 1 2007 @ 10:51 AM
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...Continued from above.


Originally posted by phoenixhasrisin
A statistical measure of who is deemed successful? No one defines success? Are you kidding me? Sure, I will come up with a statistical measure of who is deemed successful as soon as I am done working on my happiness matrix, is that alright?


Loved this post! Too many good points to mention.


And I’d still like to know what’s so offensive about this thread. The phenomenon exists -- in all races (we’ve discovered). What’s so damn painful and offensive about talking about that?



Originally posted by HarlemHottie
The only reason we kept coming back to "acting white," the term itself, was because BH and a few other people were upset by its use.


I wasn't upset. I was trying to find out something. Just because it took people 4 pages to understand what I meant doesn't mean that I was upset. I'm not going to sit around anymore and let people state how I feel.



I would have preferred to move along myself.


Then go for it. Move along. No one is holding you back.


Originally posted by truthseeka
Anyone ever heard of Jack and Jill?


And who informed you about Jack and Jill? Did you do any research yourself or just take this obviously slanted opinion as truth? I've never heard about it, so don't have an opinion about it. But I did investigate it instead of listen to what someone with a chip on his shoulder claimed about it.

Jack and Jill of America



Jack & Jill of America, Inc. was founded January 24, 1938 in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania from a meeting of 20 mothers by the leadership of Marion Stubbs Thomas with the idea of bringing together children in a social and cultural environment.
...
The organization continues on, dedicating its resources to improving the quality of life, particularly African-American children.


So, an organization to help African American children gets lambasted by you because of something you heard? You practically called them Oreos. And I'm getting preached at because I don't do research??? Please!


Originally posted by FlyersFan
It was a great show. Funny and sometimes serious (dyslexia for example). ... I never once thought anything about skin color. It was just fun family entertainment.


FF, I felt exactly the same way! I never once thought of the family as a "black family" or that they were making a statement about blacks. They were just a family. I LOVED the Cosby Show. I adored Rudy!


Originally posted by thisguyrighthere
How does a black doctor married to a black lawyer in New York whos kids get into decent universities and have a spin-off show of their own where the vast majority of students are themselves black perpetuate negative stereotypes?


Excellent question.



[edit on 1-2-2007 by Benevolent Heretic]



posted on Feb, 1 2007 @ 11:17 AM
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Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
And who informed you about Jack and Jill? Did you do any research yourself or just take this obviously slanted opinion as truth?

So, an organization to help African American children gets lambasted by you because of something you heard? You practically called them Oreos. And I'm getting preached at because I don't do research??? Please!


Man, please.

My professor brought it up yesterday in class. SHE was who I heard it from first. Then, one of my classmates stated that he was invited to Jack and Jill, but his parents decided not to put him in it. (don't ask me why, he didn't explain that) Guess what kind of skin tone he has?


So, spare me that Oreo BS. I heard it straight from this guy's mouth; that means a whole lot more to me than what you think about this program. If it was REALLY about helping black kids, how come you can't apply to it?


As for the Cosby Show, I didn't think about that aspect until I took the class. Hell, I never really watched the damn show on a regular basis (I did watch the spin off Cosby, though). I was actually surprised that we talked about it in that way in the class, but after we discussed it, I understood.

What the show did was tell white America that, "hey, if Dr. Huggstable can do well in America, we shouldn't be concerned about any barriers the average black faces. It's their own fault they aren't successful (just like the one poster said
).



posted on Feb, 1 2007 @ 11:40 AM
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Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
Are you saying that Fordham and Ogbu are the only people who believe the evil "white people" theory?

I never said that. I said that it's being phased out as the older people die off. (I'm not sure if I said that here, or in a u2u.)



that it's largely unchallenged by the black (or white) community.

BH, I don't know where you live, but in a lot of places, young black and white people are getting together and starting families. That's a trend I've noticed here in NYC and I've been told about in other cities. A lot of young black people have white people in their immediate families, and the people I'm talking about are all poor or working-poor, so they know it's not 'white people' holding them down. Their 'baby-mama' is white.

That's why I said, it's dying out. Literally.



This is a perfect example of being able to find sources that support any opinion.

BH, I was not saying that the source was absolutely right. I was saying, you had misunderstood their point. That's all.



According to you and Ceci, I should wait for you two to tell me which one to believe because you're black and you know the Truth about it.

I didn't mean to imply that. All I was saying was, when it comes to relatively obscure people, with whom you may not be readily familiar, give our opinions some consideration, when we all agree.

Think about it like this. Here's a black person you've never heard of. His credentials seem ok. But when you bring him up to several black people you know, in several different parts of the country, they all think he's a 'whatever', good or bad. They're all in rare agreement. You can't understand why.

I'm saying, at that point, realize that there may be some undercurrents you're not fully aware of. That's not to say you should be like, Oh, I don't need to think about it anymore, but just... consider it.

I would never presume to tell you what to think, in your final conclusion. I'm just trying to share with you the best sources I've been able to find thus far. There's a lot of garbage out there, and I would just like to help you weed out the bad science, or generally unaccepted theories, or whatever.

One of the authors of the study I posted, Roland G. Fryer, was the source for one of the best economics books out there right now, Freakonomics. That's why I thought it was important to really consider. I've read a lot of his work, and I'm impressed by him. I took African-American studies in college, and we read Cornel West. That's why I was excited when Ceci posted and excerpt from one of his papers, but I guess we didn't convey it right.



Not one person seems willing to correct their speech to blame the right people. It's just so easy to utter "white people". No doubt because that's what you've been taught.

Wow, you are just full of assumptions, aren't you?

I like to say exactly what I mean, when I can. So, when you first mentioned it in Ceci's thread, I considered it, because I don't like to hurt people's feelings, especially when I consider them friends. Therefore, since I first started speaking to you in depth about all this, I've been trying to be more precise. What more do you want from me?



I'm just supposed to take it because I'm seen as deserving it.

When have I ever said that, BH? Now I'm insulted.



Just to put this in perspective, what if I said to you:

Total BS. You thought up a whole scenario. That would be like the black people in the thread assuming you all lived in trailers and slept with family members.

I think that all we're saying prejudice and racism against black people by white people does exist. Someone has to be perpetrating it. We don't know every single one of you, so we obviously can't be that precise.

What would you have us say? Maybe someone should start a thread to find the best name for who you call the 'wealthy corrupt,' in this new classist-not-racist outlook. I'm not being facetious or sarcastic. I'm serious, you're right in saying that we call them the wrong thing, but 'wealthy corrupt' hasn't caught on yet.



You can’t tell me what ‘black people think’. You can only tell me what you]/b] think.

I think you're misunderstanding me. When I say that I know 'what black people think', I mean it literally. I'm not projecting my own opinion out onto the black population. I'm basically sharing with you what other black people have told me, or what is the leading opinion. I guess I could say, I'm telling you what the black people I know have told me.

If I asked you 'what white people think' about something, I would be asking for a quick summary of what other white people have told you, not your own personal opinion. If I wanted that, I would ask what you think.



posted on Feb, 1 2007 @ 11:48 AM
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(I tried to post this earlier, but my browser crashed.)

I know quite a few people in it. In my more social years, I used to go to a lot of their parties.

I can't say whether they're bad or good. Like, the kids I knew who were in it, weren't all that enthused, but their parents made them go for connections. Also, a lot of them/us went to private school together, so, even though they lived in different neighborhoods, they saw each other on the weekends. They had little mixers and retreats and stuff. The plan was that they would all marry each other and live happily ever after... at least for the parents, I think.

It's one step toward black Americans creating inter-generational wealth.

It was a little elitist, from the impression I got, and they knew it, but, overall, I think it does more good than bad.




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