Proposed Arizona Law Would Define Armed Minutemen As "Domestic Terrorists"

Once upon a time, having been educated in Canada to be civilized, I supported gun control.

No longer.

This proposed legislation is un-Constitutional. And the American Constitution protects the right to bear arms for very good reason.

As a sidenote - Many of the most despotic and draconian regimes historically have prohibited ordinary citizens from bearing arms.

* The martial arts were developed under such circumstances, to empower peasants to protect themselves from the Emperor's soldiers.

* Scotland's peasants also were prevented from carrying arms - which led to games of skill like curling and rock throwing.


Given the political-economic directions currently being taken on this continent - I am relieved that the US Constitution protects Americans' rights to bear arms.


sofi

Originally posted by grover
AND if you law and order types look past your rhetoric you will find most police groups favor them.

So I guess that means you are one of those crime and chaos types?

Originally posted by Rasobasi420
They're defending their nation's borders without intelligence. And I mean that in every applicable sense of te term. At this point it's just a bunch of guys with guns and pickup trucks driving around looking for "illegal activity". And, if they don't find it by the end of the first six pack, then they'll just have to keep drinkin' till they find that dang Osama bin Ladin.

The reference to the drinking is an ignorant statement. As for working without intelligence, they are well-equipped, and have the assistance of the state:

SAN ANTONIO_Texas has started broadcasting live images of the U.S. border on the Internet in a security program that asks the public to report signs of illegal immigration or drug crimes.

A test Web site went live Thursday at texasborderwatch.com with views from eight cameras and ways for viewers to e-mail reports of suspicious activity. Previously, the images had only been available to law enforcement and landowners where the cameras are located.
SAN ANTONIO_Texas has started broadcasting live images of the U.S. border on the Internet in a security program that asks the public to report signs of illegal immigration or drug crimes.

www.securityinfowatch.com...

Originally posted by Rasobasi420
Especially when 98% of the time they don't actually know what the law is.

I'd stack one of the Minutemen up against you in a test of laws and limitations any day of the week.

Originally posted by grover
In the long run the vast majority of those sneaking across the border are poor laborers looking for work NOT drug smugglers, slave merchants and the mafioso... though of course they are there too... but most just want a job.

Bullcrap. Just ask California.

• In Los Angeles, 95 percent of all outstanding warrants for homicide (which total 1,200 to 1,500) target illegal aliens. Up to two-thirds of all fugitive felony warrants (17,000) are for illegal aliens.

• A confidential California Department of Justice study reported in 1995 that 60 percent of the 20,000-strong 18th Street Gang in southern California is illegal; police officers say the proportion is actually much greater. The bloody gang collaborates with the Mexican Mafia, the dominant force in California prisons, on complex drug-distribution schemes, extortion, and drive-by assassinations, and commits an assault or robbery every day in L.A. County. The gang has grown dramatically over the last two decades by recruiting recently arrived youngsters, most of them illegal, from Central America and Mexico.

• The leadership of the Columbia Lil’ Cycos gang, which uses murder and racketeering to control the drug market around L.A.’s MacArthur Park, was about 60 percent illegal in 2002, says former assistant U.S. attorney Luis Li. Francisco Martinez, a Mexican Mafia member and an illegal alien, controlled the gang from prison, while serving time for felonious reentry following deportation.
www.city-journal.org...

Originally posted by 27jd

Originally posted by grover
The problem is it is an international border and it is exactly the wrong place for vigilantism for a whole series of reasons, not to mention the simple fact that individuals do not represent, or speak for the state, unless they have been duly appointed to do so; and the Minutemen have not but instead chose to take this on by their own accord.

Then neighborhood watch groups should be disbanded and labeled terrorists as well, nobody appointed them, so if I want to steal a car they have no right to do anything about it, it's up to the police to be everywhere at once. I am in AZ, and the minutemen have my approval, the border patrol does nothing. Pretty much the only people here that are against it are the illegals themselves.

I still say though if the illegals sneaking across the border to take the jobs we will not do anymore were white, English speaking Canadians instead of brown, Spanish speaking Hispanics, this wouldn't even be an issue.

There it is, the race card. You are completely wrong and speculating without anything other than a preconceived notion. My father is Canadian, he had to go through the process of citizenship like anybody else does.

In the long run the vast majority of those sneaking across the border are poor laborers looking for work NOT drug smugglers, slave merchants and the mafioso... though of course they are there too... but most just want a job.

Yeah, okay. Poor laborers that are STILL BREAKING THE LAW! Again, if I wanted to steal a car, it would probably only be because I was a poor pedestrian and just wanted a ride. And if you lived here with all these illegals, you may feel differently, they can do pretty much whatever they wish since there's no way to identify them.

sloppy logic in every single of your statements. My neighborhood crime watch group are for the most part little old ladies and families and while some of them surely have guns, they aren't walking around the neighborhood with them.

Thats not what I said... I said that if the illegals were white and English speaking no one would be making the fuss about brown skinned Spanish speakers... race? Sorry they are Caucasians just like you or me... its a simple statement of fact their skin tone and language make them stand out while your average WASP English speaking Canadian wouldn't.

I never said that they weren't breaking the law... I am talking about the demonizing of them.... I repeat if all things being equal except that the US was the poverty ridden neighbor of a rich Mexico and the only thing stopping you from getting a job you could support your family with was legality and a border... you would cross it.

[edit on 22-1-2007 by grover]

Originally posted by grover
It is a very short step from what they are doing now, to trying to take the law into their own hands. I am not saying that they are now, but the potential is there and the longer the situation continues, that potential will remain and the odds will keep going up that there will be some form of incident and someone will get hurt.

Lets face it the only "sin" the illegal aliens are guilty of is trying to come here to work and help their family without going through proper channels... and why is that? The proper channels are expensive and take forever.

Let me ask all of you this...with all things being equal except that the United States is the one that is poverty ridden and Mexico is the wealthy neighbor with jobs that the locals don't want to do...and the only thing stopping you from getting those jobs and helping your family is a porous border, and you are too poor to do things properly....what would you do?

Me personally... I would illegally skip across the border without a qualm if it meant helping my family... and the odds are, so would you.

Tell that to all of the American citizens who have been victimized by these illegal invaders when the invaders steal their identities and commit crimes and run up debt in their names. Or work jobs with their identities and they have the IRS coming after them for nonpayment of taxes. Then these victims have to spend thousands and thousands of dollars to get it fixed while they may lose their jobs, freedom while jailed for crimes committed in their names, etc. And no illegal invader supporter will cough up the dough to repay these victims.

If average American citizens are not allowed to steal other people's wealth by burglarizing homes when they are out of jobs thanks to these illegal invaders stealing their jobs from them then the illegal invaders obviously have more rights than the American citizens. It is a LIE that these invaders do jobs that the "locals" do not want to do. If the employers choose to only hire illegals who are willing to work for less than minimum wage or less than the legal citizen employee would work for, there is nothing the American citizen can do about it.

Originally posted by grover
Borg... I reread what the law proposed and I can see how it could be construed to target homeowners and the like protecting their own property, BUT it still reads to me as if the intented target are vigilantes, both individuals and groups that take the law into their own hands.... totally different than a homeowner protecting his God's half acre.

Which is my main point of contention here. It's not about what you or I think the law means; it's what the lawyers think that it means in the courtroom. You must see that this could indeed be leading to a very dark time for the American People. We may be left with no other choice than to fight for our rights, whatever it takes. The only feasable way, at the moment anyway, to get anything done is to message your congressmen, and make a huge stink about it.

Maybe that way, when they get 40000 people complaining about the same thing, they might consider doing something about it. If not, then all of those people know who their representative really is. I think it's time that the lines get drawn, so when the push comes on, everyone knows where they stand. Now I'm not advocating any hostile action, merely a friendly political reminder to those that we put in office that we put them there, and we can damn sure take them out.

I think they've become a bit too comfortable in the idea that they will always be in that job, when they very well could be out tomorrow. We can, and I think should, impeach on a more regular basis, for no other reason than enforcing the laws that these very people pass for everyone else. If the law's not good enough for them, then why the hell should I have to obey it? HUH??

Sorry for the rant, but it's rediculous things like this that make me wanna run for office myself. Only reason that I don't is because I know what happens to people that truly try to make change, ala the Kennedy's. Once again, I thank you for your time.

Oh, and another harmless plug, vote for me in ATS' 2008 Presidential election, and stupid laws like this won't make it past me without a big red veto stamped on them.

For Democracy,

TheBorg

Originally posted by jsobecky

Originally posted by grover
In the long run the vast majority of those sneaking across the border are poor laborers looking for work NOT drug smugglers, slave merchants and the mafioso... though of course they are there too... but most just want a job.

Bullcrap. Just ask California.

• In Los Angeles, 95 percent of all outstanding warrants for homicide (which total 1,200 to 1,500) target illegal aliens. Up to two-thirds of all fugitive felony warrants (17,000) are for illegal aliens.

• A confidential California Department of Justice study reported in 1995 that 60 percent of the 20,000-strong 18th Street Gang in southern California is illegal; police officers say the proportion is actually much greater. The bloody gang collaborates with the Mexican Mafia, the dominant force in California prisons, on complex drug-distribution schemes, extortion, and drive-by assassinations, and commits an assault or robbery every day in L.A. County. The gang has grown dramatically over the last two decades by recruiting recently arrived youngsters, most of them illegal, from Central America and Mexico.

• The leadership of the Columbia Lil’ Cycos gang, which uses murder and racketeering to control the drug market around L.A.’s MacArthur Park, was about 60 percent illegal in 2002, says former assistant U.S. attorney Luis Li. Francisco Martinez, a Mexican Mafia member and an illegal alien, controlled the gang from prison, while serving time for felonious reentry following deportation.
www.city-journal.org...

It is really easy to take statistics like these and project them onto a whole group. The acid test is though...what percentage of the whole illegal alien population in the area discussed, in this case Southern California do these numbers represent... 5%, 10%, 20%, 80%? More, less? Then and only then can you paint an accurate picture of the criminal activity caused by these illegals. Think about it though, all most of them want to do is work, they know they are illegal so the last thing they want to do is to draw attention to themselves. Also in higher population areas, you are going to have higher crime caused by all groups... there will be a higher number of crimes caused by illegals, whites, blacks, asians etc.

The real thing I am objecting to is the blind demonization of these, actually any people... Illegal Hispanics, Arabs and Muslims, blacks, any people... its obscene.

Originally posted by Rasobasi420


They're defending their nation's borders without intelligence. And I mean that in every applicable sense of te term. At this point it's just a bunch of guys with guns and pickup trucks driving around looking for "illegal activity". And, if they don't find it by the end of the first six pack, then they'll just have to keep drinkin' till they find that dang Osama bin Ladin.

So what's the alternative? Continue to allow the influx of illegal immigration and allow them to turn this nation into a third world country? Nah, not without a fight they won't.

By the way, to show you how stupid this "Representative " is, how are the minute men "domestic terrorists" when they are trying to defend this nation's borders? It doesn't make sense. They are trying to do the job that the federal government is failing to do, yet, this woman,she certainly isn't a lady, this woman is trying to label them "domestic terrorist"?

Originally posted by SpeakerofTruth

Originally posted by Rasobasi420


They're defending their nation's borders without intelligence. And I mean that in every applicable sense of te term. At this point it's just a bunch of guys with guns and pickup trucks driving around looking for "illegal activity". And, if they don't find it by the end of the first six pack, then they'll just have to keep drinkin' till they find that dang Osama bin Ladin.

So what's the alternative? Continue to allow the influx of illegal immigration and allow them to turn this nation into a third world country? Nah, not without a fight they won't.

Yeah dudes!!! let's send vigilantes to look for criminals!! and let's send rednecks on car chases.....dudes every thing is due process.....

All I've got to say is that....There were once slaves in america, and there will always be some slaves in America. This is all modern slavery in a way.

Originally posted by darkmaster

Yeah dudes!!! let's send vigilantes to look for criminals!! and let's send rednecks on car chases.....dudes every thing is due process.....

All I've got to say is that....There were once slaves in america, and there will always be some slaves in America. This is all modern slavery in a way.

Yeah, let's label people who really give a damn about this country, assuming you are referring to the minutemen, as "slaves." That makes a lot of sense!! You sound about like this Sinema,or whatever the hell her name is, woman... Oh, by the way, she thinks that because the Klu Klux Klan monitored the borders in the 70s, the minutemen are equitable to them.. There are HISPANICS who are part of this minutemen group...They are people who genuinely care about our country,which is more than I can say for many of the Republicans and all of the Democrats in out governement..

[edit on 23-1-2007 by SpeakerofTruth]

Originally posted by Jessicamsa

Originally posted by grover
It is a very short step from what they are doing now, to trying to take the law into their own hands. I am not saying that they are now, but the potential is there and the longer the situation continues, that potential will remain and the odds will keep going up that there will be some form of incident and someone will get hurt.

Lets face it the only "sin" the illegal aliens are guilty of is trying to come here to work and help their family without going through proper channels... and why is that? The proper channels are expensive and take forever.

Let me ask all of you this...with all things being equal except that the United States is the one that is poverty ridden and Mexico is the wealthy neighbor with jobs that the locals don't want to do...and the only thing stopping you from getting those jobs and helping your family is a porous border, and you are too poor to do things properly....what would you do?

Me personally... I would illegally skip across the border without a qualm if it meant helping my family... and the odds are, so would you.

Tell that to all of the American citizens who have been victimized by these illegal invaders when the invaders steal their identities and commit crimes and run up debt in their names. Or work jobs with their identities and they have the IRS coming after them for nonpayment of taxes. Then these victims have to spend thousands and thousands of dollars to get it fixed while they may lose their jobs, freedom while jailed for crimes committed in their names, etc. And no illegal invader supporter will cough up the dough to repay these victims.

If average American citizens are not allowed to steal other people's wealth by burglarizing homes when they are out of jobs thanks to these illegal invaders stealing their jobs from them then the illegal invaders obviously have more rights than the American citizens. It is a LIE that these invaders do jobs that the "locals" do not want to do. If the employers choose to only hire illegals who are willing to work for less than minimum wage or less than the legal citizen employee would work for, there is nothing the American citizen can do about it.

OMG!! And Blacks steal cars and smoke pot, Whites get drunk and kill people, Asians take our Jobs, and middle easterns Terrorize our Country!!!

Dude get your facts straight, most alien workers use a form that is given to them to do their taxes. Stop Profiling !!!

Me personally I hate the minutemen. I believe the border should be open to pretty much everyone. But even if I did not want the border open to be crossed I would still not want someone not licensed by another person to watch over what they can and cant do. Because the immigrants would not tell our government the minutemen could pretty much torture immigrants without anyone else knowing about it or reporting it. I find these people disgusting and while I dont agree with making them domestic terroists I believe they should not be allowed to patrol our borders.

Originally posted by pornanist
Me personally I hate the minutemen. I believe the border should be open to pretty much everyone.

Unfortunately, your line of thought seems to be predominant among our "great" leaders as well... Yeah, hell, let's just keep our borders wide open...Let's turn our country into a third world slum...Great idea... Hell, that's where this freaking world is headed anyway.. No laws,no rules, everything just freaking loosey,goosey everything goes... I just pray that I am not in the world that you all are about to create for yourselves for very long... People that think like you can have it and the hell that will come with it ..... God bless.

Originally posted by pornanist
I believe the border should be open to pretty much everyone.

That's how the Aztecs felt! Then the Conquistadors came over, slaughtered 1000's of them, stole all their gold, infected them with small pox, raped their women and made the rest slaves.



Maybe you should go watch Apocalypto.
Then tell me how their open border was a good plan.


[edit on 23-1-2007 by Regenmacher]

Regenmacher
That was perfect!

You have voted Regenmacher for the Way Above Top Secret award. You have two more votes this month.

Ya know I am really getting sick of the old only ones who care about America Bullhooey are the right wing conservatives. Rot on that crap. All we are saying is that there are better ways than turning law enforcement over to a bunch of vigilantes. Try getting your oh so precious president to stop spending billions a month on his pathetic ego boosting little war in Iraq, and start doing something here at home for once besides giving the country away to his cronies.... like funding the border patrols properly.

[edit on 23-1-2007 by grover]

Its just the point being that I know if it was possible many people from Mexico would come over here for work and then go back for the night. I dont think many people would stay here if it was possible to go back. Just watch No Reservations where I bet the mexican chef would not be living here just working here if it was possible. So dont go telling me that many politicans want that no politicians really want that bush doesnt, mccain does not and thats just two. And where if you think we should be closing the border, we should really be closing the border of canada not mexico and the us considering the supposed terroists came over that border not the mexican border.