Proposed Arizona Law Would Define Armed Minutemen As "Domestic Terrorists"

Originally posted by grover
like funding the border patrols properly.

[edit on 23-1-2007 by grover]

How about putting troops on our borders... True, it wouldn't stop it,but it surely would eliminate a lot of it.. I'd be all in favor of pulling our troops out of France and Germany and placing them on the Mexican and Canadian borders.. All in favor of it.

Originally posted by pornanist
And where if you think we should be closing the border, we should really be closing the border of canada not mexico and the us considering the supposed terroists came over that border not the mexican border.

Both borders should be secured in my honest opinion.

Originally posted by Regenmacher

Originally posted by pornanist
I believe the border should be open to pretty much everyone.

That's how the Aztecs felt! Then the Conquistadors came over, slaughtered 1000's of them, stole all their gold, infected them with small pox, raped their women and made the rest slaves.

Yeah, you're right. When white people came into North America they destroyed the natives, stole their land and gold, and raped their women and children. Do you think a "closed border" would have stopped them?

And it's a good thing you bring up the Aztecs. Maybe then you may start to think about who the land really belongs to. Of course that's a side note, but I think it's a valid view. Certain groups have had a tendancy to go out, guns blastin' over rediculous concept of ownership. And, in doing so, these groups have destroyed entire societies so they could put their flag on there.

It's a mindset that needs to stop before even more damage is done by these same groups of people.

Here is the latest on this issue

Anti-Minuteman Arizona lawmaker reports sexual threats

USAToday

PHOENIX (AP) — An Arizona lawmaker said Monday that she has received several sexually threatening e-mails in response to her bill that would make armed civil patrols an act of domestic terrorism. Democratic state Rep. Kyrsten Sinema of Phoenix, an immigrants rights advocate whose proposal targets the Minuteman Civil Defense Corps and other groups that patrol the border, said she reported the e-mails to the FBI and Arizona Department of Public Safety.

I do not agree with her bill and I am glad to see that it has very little chance of even getting a committee vote but such attacks against her are just plain wrong and need to be prosecuted

You see, Kenshiro, I don't agree with her bill and she is no doubt foolish,but threats such as she has "claimed" to have received is ridiculous... Such acts as this is what makes some people feel as they do towards anyone who tries to stand up for their nation.

Originally posted by grover
Ya know I am really getting sick of the old only ones who care about America Bullhooey are the right wing conservatives. Rot on that crap. All we are saying is that there are better ways than turning law enforcement over to a bunch of vigilantes. Try getting your oh so precious president to stop spending billions a month on his pathetic ego boosting little war in Iraq, and start doing something here at home for once besides giving the country away to his cronies.... like funding the border patrols properly.

[edit on 23-1-2007 by grover]

Well, for once(?) I agree with you. Problem is that it's not happening the way it should. The problem still exists, though, and somebody's got to do something. The Minutemen are hardly the "best" solution, but many believe they are better than nothing.

Also, there's the possibility that having the Minutemen on the border will force the feds to do something when otherwise they wouldn't.

[edit on 1/23/2007 by centurion1211]

Originally posted by GradyPhilpott
Boy, this is too rich.

American citizens who exercise their Constitutionally protected rights are going to be guilty of a crime. Every citizen has the right to own and bear arms and an obligation to report illegal activity and has the power of citizen's arrest.

You gotta love those Democrats.

Arizona already has a pretty liberal carry concealed law. Yes every citizen has the power of citizens arrest.

But there's a differnce between using that right when you witness a crime while conducting your normal business and deciding to pony up and patrol vast areas of desert area. Where they wouldn't be if they weren't trying to enfore laws.

The minutemen and groups like them are a little of control. They have no way of verifying anyone's legal status but take it upon themselves to harass people at the Home Depot or similiar place where day laborer's gather. I guess they go off the color of skin ... seems fair enough, right?

Originally posted by SmallMindsBigIdeas
[
The minutemen and groups like them are a little of control. They have no way of verifying anyone's legal status but take it upon themselves to harass people at the Home Depot or similiar place where day laborer's gather. I guess they go off the color of skin ... seems fair enough, right?

Easy to criticize, but seriously, do you have a better idea since the feds are doing nothing to control the border situation?

Remember the old saying, "if you're not part of the solution, then you're part of the problem". The Minutemen are at least attempting to be part of the solution. They're not just sitting at a keyboard and complaining.

[edit on 1/23/2007 by centurion1211]

No, if they are basing their assumptions of guilt based on knowledge of the English language, or skin color, then they are part of the problem.

Prejudice is never the solution.

All the reports I've seen have them identifying people they see crossing the border illegally and then identifying them to the Border Patrol. Now, if the illegals manage to make it to a "Home Depot parking lot" between the time they are first seen and the time the Border Patrol arrives and the illegals are "fingered", what's the point? Just because there's a time delay between first sighting and pickup doesn't mean you get to now play the "race card".

These minutemen can identify an individual Mexican seen crossing the border in the middle of the night, then pick them out at Home Depot during business hours the next day?

Any lawyer would be able to tear apart that ID in a court of law. I guess it's a good thing for them that due process isn't an issue huh?

Yes, by simply following them. There's also such things now days as digital video and still cameras to help make the identifications.

BTW, just how did profiling get to be such a politically (in)correct dirty word? Police and FBI profilers have been used to help catch "ordinary" criminals for years. But now we can't use the same techiques to catch terrorists and illegal aliens?

So, are the people against using profiling apologists for all criminals or just the terrorists and the illegal aliens? Yes, what is their agenda here?

[edit on 1/23/2007 by centurion1211]

[edit on 1/23/2007 by centurion1211]

Let's keep it civil folks. Discuss the topic and not each other please.

Originally posted by SmallMindsBigIdeas
Arizona already has a pretty liberal carry concealed law. Yes every citizen has the power of citizens arrest.

But there's a differnce between using that right when you witness a crime while conducting your normal business and deciding to pony up and patrol vast areas of desert area. Where they wouldn't be if they weren't trying to enfore laws.

So, let's recap:

They are exercising their right to carry a firearm, and

They are surveilling the border. Perfectly legal.

Where is the crime?

It's incidents like these

newmexico.indymedia.org...

Vigilante assault on Mexican immigrants kills one

A USA masked vigilante with an assault rifle and military fatigues attacked a group of 18 Mexican immigrants on the border near Columbus, New Mexico yesterday. According to a report today by the Attorney General of Chihuahua, Patricia Gonzalez, one or more armed vigilantes, from the US side of the border, stopped a vehicle carrying 18 Mexican immigrants attempting to cross the border near the "Palomas, Chihuahua/Columbus, New Mexico" port of entry. The vigilante in a ski mask forcefully stopped their car and ordered the immigrants out of the vehicle and then proceeded to shoot the driver point blank, killing Apolinar Ortega Sanchez. The murderer who spoke in "broken Spanish" then ran to a vehicle waiting for him and raced to the USA side of the border according to the survivors. Attorney General Patricia Gonzalez is investigating the possibility that the assault was part of the Minutemen operations that took place along the Mexico/Arizona border and that are now moving westward.

sandiego.indymedia.org...

Below, Jim Chase of the California Minutemen admits publicly that it was "rogue" Minutemen who shot two Mexican migrants at the border this past weekend. "The rogue theory is absolutely true," he said.

that are trying to be avoided.

[edit on 23-1-2007 by Rasobasi420]

A crime, or at most a handful of crimes. Compared to the millions of illegals, it is statistically insignificant.

So if I turn your argument around and start listing all the (thousands of) crimes committed against legal citizens by illegals from the south, would that make the point that they shouldn't be allowed to be here? Using your logic, it should.



[edit on 1/23/2007 by centurion1211]

Rasobasi420,
Shall we continue to paint everyone on either side with such a wide brush then?
If that is the case, then I guess that all the illegals are indeed criminals then. Take a look at a few examples of this news story on the latest ICE roundup:
Immigration Sweep Yields 761 Arrests

The weeklong series of raids in the five-county region targeted illegal immigrants who had previously been deported for crimes or had ignored final deportation orders.

How about the DUI and the sex offender or the 423 who were identified in area jails since Jan. 17 or the

Immigration officials have also identified 3,000 inmates in state and local jails who will be deported.

If we are to paint all of the minutemen as being rednecked wildman on hunts for the poor illegal immigrant who is just crossing the border, because of only a couple of bad apples, then we must, by using the same argument that you have presented, label all illegal immigrants as criminals since it looks like a good percentage of them, from the story, have been put in jail.
and as for the racist positions that many would have it....

The sweep netted illegal immigrants from 14 countries in all, including Mexico, Honduras, Ukraine, India, Japan, Poland and Trinidad.

, yep we, who are against illegal immigrants are all anti-hispanic yep yep

They are both crimes, and they both need to be dealt with, by the appropriate powers. Not some vigilantes.

I'll remind you that the Crips in LA started out as a "Neighborhood watch" of sorts.

That aside, these two cases aren't the only ones.

12 murders a day caused by illegal aliens

Twelve Americans are murdered every day by illegal aliens, according to statistics released by Rep. Steve King, R-Iowa. If those numbers are correct, it translates to 4,380 Americans murdered annually by illegal aliens. That’s 21,900 since Sept. 11, 2001.

And that's 'just' murders. Doesn't talk about the other types of violent crimes committed by illegal aliens. Also doesn't talk about our tax money wasted on caring for them either.

[edit on 1/23/2007 by centurion1211]

Originally posted by Rasobasi420
They are both crimes, and they both need to be dealt with, by the appropriate powers. Not some vigilantes.