Moon Base or End Poverty

If you had to choose would you choose to spend money on establishing a moon base or trying to end poverty in your country. That may actually be a choice the government makes. We might not have any say, however.

www.nasa.gov...

Check out this article of all the lofty reasons to go to the moon weaponizing space isn't one of them. How realistic is that?

Eliminating poverty is a totally impossible goal, so I'd choose to go to the moon rather than throw money down a black hole that'll just cause inflation.

Those are some weird choices. I'd rather build bases but not on the moon, on an actual planet that I can breathe and enjoy the weather. Bases why not homes.....I've had it with the word "bases."

As dj has said, ending poverty would be quite the task. But the question itself serves a bigger purpose. Millions of children are starving on a daily basis, and we are spending billions of dollars on Space Exploration. Makes you wonder, even if only a little bit.

More of an ethical question than anything. Personally I would prefer to see the money go towards saving lifes of innocent men, women, & children who never had a fighting chance.

But those who feel the money should be spent in space, I entirely see where they come from.

Like I said, it is a question of ethics and values.

I'll go with the moon base.

You could give everyone on the planet one million dollars and there would still be poverty.

Originally posted by polanksi
If you had to choose would you choose to spend money on establishing a moon base or trying to end poverty in your country.

Moon base, definitely.

Millions of children are starving on a daily basis, and we are spending billions of dollars on Space Exploration.

Let them eat moon pie.

The problem is you really can't end poverty with money, as stupid as that sounds. But having said that I'd much rather see the money go where it's needed, here on planet Earth. Just ignoring poverty and wasting the money on crap like moon bases, is a crime against humanity imo.

Throwing money at the poor is not a long term fix, and in the end just makes the problem worse.

The only way to end poverty is to end capitalism.
Capitalism creates and requires a poverty class to work, it's a pyramid scheme.
With capitalism no matter how much you raise peoples income, poverty remains because you're just shifting the goal posts. Raise peoples income and everything you purchase goes up to compensate, so you never really increase your buying power unless your income grows faster than the inflation. This is how the poor get trapped, they have no power to raise their own income enough to overcome the poverty.
There will always be, no matter how hard they work, a poverty class in a capitalist system.

We need to forget about the moon and work on changing the system that creates and perpetuates poverty. But the problem is those not effected by poverty just ignore it and treat it like it's the fault of those trapped in poverty, instead of the system that creates it. Fear drives this problem, a fear perpetuated by the system.

"The only way to end poverty is to end capitalism.
Capitalism creates and requires a poverty class to work, it's a pyramid scheme. With capitalism no matter how much you raise peoples income, poverty remains because you're just shifting the goal posts."

So what are trying to say here. You think that Socilism/comunisim offer a fair system. In a dream world maybe. There are those who lived real nice under the USSR while the majority lived like crap. The same can be said for most socialist/commie countries. Atleast in the US you can go as far as you want. Like most social animals on earth there are those who be on to and those who will not.

[edit on 19-1-2007 by fiveangelsfrank]

Well I think the logical thing to do is spend the money on the moon base.

I choose this for two reasons.

1. The most relavent, poverty, while it effects millions, and is truly sad,
does not effect or endanger our entire species, eventualy the Earth will
be hit (again) by an ELE Asteroid (assuming we can't prevent it), and in
that case the entire species would be wiped out.
But with off world bases, set up to be totally self-sufficient, even if
every person on Earth was killed, humanity, and any other species we
had enough genetic material in storage of, would not die.

2. The reason most people don't think about it.
Poverty will never end under the capitalistic systems of today, so with
the advent of space exploration, and the setting up of colonies capable
of holding tens of thousands, true scoialist environments could be cre-
ated, in which there would be no poverty, and eventually poverty
would cease on Earth as anyone who was'nt a documented worker or
could afford to live there waas forced to go to the off-world colonies.

Originally posted by fiveangelsfrank
So what are trying to say here. You think that Socialism/communism offer a fair system. In a dream world maybe.

First off Russia was not a communist or socialist country...

Secondly the alternatives to capitalism does not automatically mean communism or socialism, as defined by the state that is.

See the links in my sig to see a real alternative to the unfair system we live under.

And no it's not a dream world. We are all taught since birth that capitalism is the only way to run things, and NO alternative is ever offered in a positive light. It's only a dream because we are trapped in a system that sees that dream as the enemy to the right to oppress and exploit.

The 'dream' has been realized before and it did work, very well in fact. Do some reading on the Spanish Revolution of 1936.

It's only your feelings of powerlessness, perpetuated by the system, that keeps you in fear of an alternative to the unfair system we live in.
All the power is in the hands of the few, but should be in the hands of all.

So it's a dream? I thought your country was based on a dream, the 'American dream'?

"Capitalism creates and requires a poverty class to work,"

No it doesn't. Capitalism is about investing capital into projects while expecting a profit to return on it. None of that says 'poor people are needed'. At absolute worst, a capitalist system is going to require people who are willing to work for a wage. That hardly means that the person is poor.


As far as the feasability of the programme, perhaps instead of saying 'end poverty or build a moon base', we should all just focus on 'is it worth it to spend the trillions and trillions of dollars we'd need to have a moon base, or to do something to help people that are dying because of starvation and simply and easily cured diseases in our own country'????

No it doesn't. Capitalism is about investing capital into projects while expecting a profit to return on it. None of that says 'poor people are needed'. At absolute worst, a capitalist system is going to require people who are willing to work for a wage. That hardly means that the person is poor.

Agreed. Some people will fail at their grand endeavors and have to get a desk job. So what? Life is still good.

As for the moon base vs poverty thing...

As dj said, it's just totally unrealistic to end poverty. I.E. take some of the world's poorest residents and try giving them the skills they need to afford a minivan, avg car #2, a 3-bedroom/2 bath house etc... think that's hard? You bet it is! I'm willing to bet it would prove even more challenging than politely asking the Donald Trumps of this world to give up their wealth and be happy with said minivan, 3-bedroom home!!

So I guess that leaves the moon. Helium-3 and giant steps anyone?

Definately a moonbase. If earth gets wiped out at least we could back colonize earth if we needed to.

Moon base, let them eat moon pie! here! here!

Originally posted by Nygdan
"Capitalism creates and requires a poverty class to work,"

No it doesn't. Capitalism is about investing capital into projects while expecting a profit to return on it. None of that says 'poor people are needed'. At absolute worst, a capitalist system is going to require people who are willing to work for a wage. That hardly means that the person is poor.

Sry but yes it does. It creates a poverty class for the reasons I explained.
It's alright saying it forces people to work, but there is never enough jobs to go around. Look at history, has there ever been a time there hasn't been a poverty class?

Capitalism creates wealth for private business owners at the expense of the worker. It requires a pool of workers who are at the beck and call of the private owner, otherwise the workers wouldn't work for that owner.
It's an unbalanced pyramid scheme forcing people to work meaningless low paid jobs to line the pockets of the few.
It's impossible for everyone to be wealthy under capitalism, however hard they work. The private owners would just raise their prices to meet the new wealth, so we're back to square one, and a new poverty class would develop.

And what keeps you supporting it? The carrot and the stick my friend.



[edit on 23/1/2007 by ANOK]

Look at history, has there ever been a time there hasn't been a poverty class?

I think it just comes down to the way biology is. Some ogranisms are more dominant and find a way to flourish and humans are no different. With 300 million people in the USA, some people are just going to roll over easier than others and accept $10,000/yr or whatever it turns out to be. I think it's just inherent.

Sure some people are born into more difficult circumstances but how are you going to change that without regulating who is able to have children?

2. The reason most people don't think about it.
Poverty will never end under the capitalistic systems of today, so with
the advent of space exploration, and the setting up of colonies capable
of holding tens of thousands, true scoialist environments could be cre-
ated, in which there would be no poverty, and eventually poverty
would cease on Earth as anyone who was'nt a documented worker or
could afford to live there waas forced to go to the off-world colonies.

Iori- I see you're not only a corporate socialist but a futurist as well Actually, this reads more like a sci-fi book, but it does attempt to hit both birds with one stone.
The problem with capitalism is that it strives to maximize profits not human evolution. There's no way to kickstart the whole "space colony" business because we have yet to develop adequate knowledge of space travel and colonization. In the long run, it might be advantageous for our capitalist society to have communist neighbors in order to spark competition and more quickly develop advanced space technologies.

Originally posted by ANOK
The problem is you really can't end poverty with money, as stupid as that sounds.

That's not stupid. You are correct. Money alone can't end poverty. It takes culture change and political change and etc etc etc


MOON BASE - definately - and everything good that comes from space exploration. That includes everyone having jobs to support the project and the upkeep of the moonbase. Don't forget all the fantastic inventions and new engineering and new technologies that come from the space program. Medicines are now being made in weightless space, perfect crystals for better medicines, etc etc etc.

MOON BASE.