Demon(s)

prove_it, follow your nickname and do it.

Find me another one, that truly condones rape like the koran does. Not recounts of future events, nor rules on how to deal properly with intermarriage between warring tribes.

Hey, show a quote from the Koran that advocates rape.
-Waits impatiently with popcorn-

Why? you said to find it i did...just as you asked for.

(Deuteronomy 22:28-29)
If a man is caught in the act of raping a young woman who is not engaged, he must pay fifty pieces of silver to her father. Then he must marry the young woman because he violated her, and he will never be allowed to divorce her.

(Judges 21:10-24 )
So they sent twelve thousand warriors to Jabesh-gilead with orders to kill everyone there, including women and children. "This is what you are to do," they said. "Completely destroy all the males and every woman who is not a virgin." Among the residents of Jabesh-gilead they found four hundred young virgins who had never slept with a man, and they brought them to the camp at Shiloh in the land of Canaan.



The Israelite assembly sent a peace delegation to the little remnant of Benjamin who were living at the rock of Rimmon. Then the men of Benjamin returned to their homes, and the four hundred women of Jabesh-gilead who were spared were given to them as wives. But there were not enough women for all of them. The people felt sorry for Benjamin because the LORD had left this gap in the tribes of Israel. So the Israelite leaders asked, "How can we find wives for the few who remain, since all the women of the tribe of Benjamin are dead? There must be heirs for the survivors so that an entire tribe of Israel will not be lost forever. But we cannot give them our own daughters in marriage because we have sworn with a solemn oath that anyone who does this will fall under God's curse."



Then they thought of the annual festival of the LORD held in Shiloh, between Lebonah and Bethel, along the east side of the road that goes from Bethel to Shechem. They told the men of Benjamin who still needed wives, "Go and hide in the vineyards. When the women of Shiloh come out for their dances, rush out from the vineyards, and each of you can take one of them home to be your wife! And when their fathers and brothers come to us in protest, we will tell them, 'Please be understanding. Let them have your daughters, for we didn't find enough wives for them when we destroyed Jabesh-gilead. And you are not guilty of breaking the vow since you did not give your daughters in marriage to them.'" So the men of Benjamin did as they were told. They kidnapped the women who took part in the celebration and carried them off to the land of their own inheritance. Then they rebuilt their towns and lived in them. So the assembly of Israel departed by tribes and families, and they returned to their own homes.

good enough for you???

now put up or shut up show where the koran says to rape non belivers.

The first one doesn't advocate rape. As a punishment, he has to marry her, and pay a large sum of money to the father. If you didn't know, 50 pieces of gold was alot back then. Last time I checked, rape was only for pleasure, one would usually leave the girl after rape, in this case, it is not so.

The other things you mentioned also talk about marriage. I'm not the one to be advocating kidnaping, but those were the ways back then. The men kidnaped the women as wives, to have children, not for mindless sexual pleasures.

[edit on 12-1-2007 by Radekus]

umm it says CAUGHT raping her he must marry her!

he asked for examples of rape so i gave them!

yeah, but this is in the context of punishment. Everyone sins. So if you look at it, the bible doesn't condone rape at all. He wanted proof that it condones rape, that the bible says, yeah, go rape, it's good for you. That's what I'm getting out of it anyways.

I'm still waiting to get quotes from the koran where it says, go rape it's good from you...

Originally posted by Man for God
Do not kill indiscriminately, because Jesus Lord God wants many muslims to convert to him yet. But if they blaspheme his name or the name of Jesus or the word of God in the bible, then they cannot be saved, and then war must strike them down.

Jesus pretty plainly tells people to not kill other people. Indeed, he says, when attacked, don't even try to fight back, don't even try to RESIST. He tells his followers to literally turn the other cheek so that they can strike it too.

then do not turn the other cheek, because this is not what God told Israel to do either.

Jesus specifically tells the people to not fight back. And especially not to kill. You are flat out wrong about the abundantly clear message of jesus.

Did you notice all the catastrophys that befall mostly muslim areas of the world? Indonesia, twice the 26th in two years.

This IS no coincidence.

It'd be a pretty weak and mean little god to have to hate a group of people, want to punish them, and then....have natural disasters occur where they (and OTHER people) live.

Thats clearly NOT the all powerful Creator of the Universe, thats, if anything, a lowly, earthbound, material demon. Seems you're listening to the wrong side with your calling for death, and supporting natural disasters against a people.

You are enterpreting things with your own childish views.

Its pretty childish to say 'these people don't agree with me, therefore they should die'.

I bet you hate soldiers who keep you safe in your illusion of a feminist wicca+islam free sex happy happy joy joy cafe-and-ipods and save the whales-ban all fur-world too.

Apparently, you hate the soliders who aren't christian, or who don't conform to your idea of christian. What about the muslim soldiers in the army? You're saying its justified if they die, because god hates them?

You are all angry at your parents, and wet your bed at night. There, I said it. Foofs.

Perhaps you'd like to come back here when you are adult enough to have a normal conversation with people. Buh bye.

Demon, Get Out!

Just a friendly reminder that Courtesy Is Mandatory, not optional.

The abusive tone of the original poster makes this thread decidedly unpleasant to read and a prime candidate for deletion.

However, if he should choose to honor the AboveTopSecret.com Terms And Conditions Of Use, perhaps some meaningful discussion may come of it.

Further insults in any form will not be tolerated.

At all.

Man, I thought this thread was going to be about Demons!

Object Lessons

Originally posted by LooseLipsSinkShips
Man, I thought this thread was going to be about Demons!

What makes you so sure it isn't?

Originally posted by Radekus
The first one doesn't advocate rape. As a punishment, he has to marry her, and pay a large sum of money to the father. If you didn't know, 50 pieces of gold was alot back then. Last time I checked, rape was only for pleasure, one would usually leave the girl after rape, in this case, it is not so.

Oh, how jolly to marry your rapist. Way to go man. Sorry, but this religion suck and so does every other religion that says their belief is better than all the others and that people refusing to accept "their" truth shall burn. Invaders, that is what they are. A dictatorship hidden in plain sight created by cunning and sly men for one purpose, contol over other peoples lives. No respect. But towards the individuals themselves, everyone has the right to believe in (be enslaved by) whatever, It's their loss anyway. As long as they don't try to tell ME what to think, then it is war.

Weak is the one who loves his enemies

@Man of God:
The demons are in your head, not in ours. Seek help before you kill someone.

Well we could change course and try to focus on the concept of demons, who or what they are and their history. It would make for much more interesting discussion than this hate being vomited all over the place.

I'll start by saying that demons or malevolent spirits can be found in almost every religion and culture. They are known by many names from Oni, Asuras, Daeva, and I would argue Unseelie Faerie. They share many of the same features from culture to culture, such as possession. There are exorcists not only in Christianity but also in Shintoism, Islam, and others. Demons have been with us since we first got here. Some believe they are the spirits of creatures that lived on earth before we did, others think they are the spirits of hybrid human-celestial offspring. In Jewish legend Adam had a first wife named Lilith. She refused to be equal to Adam and was expelled from the Garden of Eden. After leaving the garden she was found either by fallen angels, specificaly Samael, or something else. She mated with them and produced the Lilim, demonic entities that are like vampires or are they vampires?

Another example of demons in Jewish legend are the spirits of the giants.
When the Sons of G-d mated with the daughters of men in Genesis they produced the Nephilim. When the Nephilim died in the flood some of their spirits remained on earth.

This makes an interesting point often overlooked by Christians. Demons are hybrids spirits, offspring of humans and celestials. Most Christians I have met have a hard time separating fallen angels and demons. Fallen angels are described like demigods or godlike in power. This is far beyond the lowly demon that posesses people, haunts places, and generally scares people.

In Islam demons are called Jinn. They are a race older than man. They lived on earth before us. When Allah created Adam he instructed the Jinn to respect Adam. Iblis a very powerful Jinni refused and other Jinn followed Iblis in his contempt for Adam. Iblis would become known as Al Shaitan. the Satan. Not all Jinn are evil though. It is said a number of Jinn are Muslims.

In Zoroasterianism demons are called Daeva, which may be where the word Devil comes from. The Daeva are the servants of the dark lord Ahriman who is like Satan. Daeva spread lies, disease, and suffering. The Jewish demon Asmodeus/Ashmedai may be traced back to one of the Daeva. Oddly the Daeva are also what the Hindus call their gods.

In Hinduism demons are known as Asuras, which sounds alot like the name for Zoroastrian gods, Ahuras. Asuras are like a pantheon of demongods. A number of Hindus believe the monotheist faiths actually follow these demongods. A number of those in the montheist faiths think the same of the Hindus though. I personally think that neither they or the faiths of Abraham follow demons. Yet I do believe demons can try to corrupt people and faiths.

This concept of demonic corruption can be found in the above faiths as well as Buddhism, Shintoism, and even pre Christian Greco-Roman beliefs.
This brings me to the word Demon. The word Demon comes from a Greek word, Daemon, a type of personal spirit. To them there were diffrent kinds of Daemons. Cacodaemons, which were evil, and Agathodaemons which were good. In Rome the Daemons were compared to what the Romans called a Genius or Genii. Which of course is related to the Islamic term Jinni and Jinn.

This is just a skip across the surface of demonlogy. There's still quite abit occult lore, Goetia, Kabalah, Enochian,etc. I didn't even touch. Lamia and Lilith. The Giants of Greco-Roman, Norse, and Celtic myth which tie in with other faiths. After studying for a while you'll begin to notice universal patterns among every faith and myth.

Comments? Thoughts? Debate?

Originally posted by Majic
Object Lessons

Originally posted by LooseLipsSinkShips
Man, I thought this thread was going to be about Demons!

What makes you so sure it isn't?

Hey! Thats what I was going to say! -pout-

I would be a bad girl to say the OP is a mentally deranged lunatic with the IQ of the average 6th grade American... so I will not. However, I will say his tone reeks of evil, depression, anger, lonliness, hatered and above all, arrogance. None of which is a contribution to ATS. Where is that daggone botton!

Call me paranoid but Man for God's replies seem very similar (the insulting bits) to The Son of Man. Are you one and the same, I cannot believe that we could have two members with similar names and almost the same replies to posters. If I am Wrong I appologise in advance.

Originally posted by Raud

Originally posted by Radekus
The first one doesn't advocate rape. As a punishment, he has to marry her, and pay a large sum of money to the father. If you didn't know, 50 pieces of gold was alot back then. Last time I checked, rape was only for pleasure, one would usually leave the girl after rape, in this case, it is not so.

Oh, how jolly to marry your rapist. Way to go man. Sorry, but this religion suck and so does every other religion that says their belief is better than all the others and that people refusing to accept "their" truth shall burn. Invaders, that is what they are. A dictatorship hidden in plain sight created by cunning and sly men for one purpose, contol over other peoples lives. No respect. But towards the individuals themselves, everyone has the right to believe in (be enslaved by) whatever, It's their loss anyway. As long as they don't try to tell ME what to think, then it is war.

Weak is the one who loves his enemies

@Man of God:
The demons are in your head, not in ours. Seek help before you kill someone.

Well, those were the times back then. women were treated almost like objects. You're trying to understand the past with present thinking, it doesn't work. Obviously you'll find wrongdoings, like marriage with a rapist, lol. Women didn't have much of a choice. Divorce didn't come into play untill a few decades ago. Think about it, don't get angry. Try to understand the position before arguing. Besides, people should read the bible and take out of it what they need. They shouldn't follow everything 100% That's riddiculous.

Oh, I heard that evil demons live under the earth, and they're actually some sort of evil aliens who want to eat us. And the earth is hollow, and there's two big holes in the south and north pole, crazy stuff. Would explain the fairies, unicorns, flying demons, etc. I mean, if there's another world below...

it does sound like sleep paralysis. i've had it before and it's messed up. i'd be "awake" freaking out feeling my heart pound like it's about to explode and i'd try and force myself to move. sometimes i'd actually feel like i "rolled" out of my body and would try and float downstairs but when i'd get "too far" i'd be sucked backwards like i was attached to a rubberband and flung back to my body. one time when i was shooting back to my body i went into my body and then kept going downward into a black pit (yeah it felt bottomless) at one point in the falling i saw a vision of a cave which i was "told" was in a cave near egypt and this greenish demon with big bat wings and pointy ears (like something on a heavey metal record) had his arms crossed and eyes closed but told me if i ever tried that again i'd keep falling forever and in an instant i woke up. whew. i've learned that this happens to me if i sleep on my back. or if i've had very little sleep the night before and i'm exhausted and depressed. i'm older now and those things don't happen to me. maybe briefly but it's amazing how evil the room feels at that moment.