Russia Cant beat the 22

Do an ATS search.....
Been there, done that....
"Raptor" has unlimited AOA.

regards
seekerof

umm ok so can u give me a link to a video or not ?

I have watched at least 5 different videos of the su-37 pulling off the cobra

and after googling and going on diff sites for about half hour, i cant find any raptor vids.

SeekerOf, im not contradicting u, but all i wanna see is some visual proof thats all

Papz....
No disrespect to you or what you are asserting, but providing links to video's, etc. have been given on a few US aircraft that can do the cobra maneuver. Dredging them up is better done through the use of the ATS search engine.
There is a thread discussing the cobra maneuver also.
Type "cobra maneuver" and see what comes up, but the information, etc. has been given many months ago.
There is no video, I believe, of a actual "Raptor" doing a "cobra" but many analysts, including some Russian, believe that the aircraft can do one.

The "cobra" is impressive and can only be done by a relatively small number of pilots...mainly Russian. In such, this does not constitute an "all" Air Force maneuver and tactic/doctrine.
The F-22 is designed for "first detect, first shot", but can none-the-less be a very maneuverable aircraft in a dogfight, if need be.


regards
seekerof

Whats the point of a Cobra? I mean, its not like its going to get bye the f22 radar?


[Edited on 21-12-2003 by Laxpla]

Laxpla, a Russian Cobra is just a neat trick

it probably wouldnt do much good in a dog fight, unlike some other stunts, but nevertheless it demonstrates Su-27/Su-37 and Mig-29s (i believe) maneuvrability and Russian pilot expertise.

All i wanted to know was whether an F-22 could perform a cobra or not... chillax... its always funny how Americans react to any statement that is made to constructively criticize American jets

plus a cobra is only one of the many tricks that can only be done by the russians

btw anybody have any F-22 wallpapers ? beautiful planes..
i done a google image search but all i got was images like 120x120

btw seekerof, i did a couple searches as u recommended me to, and i still have found nothing, just ur post that criticizes the cobra maneuver

btw read this SU-37 Stealth Capabilities

id bet the Berkut would fly circles around the F-22

Did I give you the wrong impression of me? How can you tell my actions if I am on a millions of internet packets? The only way to tell my actions are if you are in person, video/audio, and or I tell you what mood I am in. This could mean that you are suprised of something, or you are born that way and its your normal face structure.

F-22 might be more or less adequate, but the AMRAAM is a bit low on its range, and it doesnt take much effort to jam it.

In a dogfight, the F-22 would be the one dissapearing off the radar screen for the wrong reasons...

Hey ppl stop talking nonsense. As for F-22, F-22 can be undetectable only if it will not transmitt any signals and that is impossible (communication, radar, etc.) Czech radar system tamara is NOT only active radar device but also passive (my father was working on it), and thus can track targets based not only active radar contact but also based on Radar waves transmission or Comunication transmition. I believe that stealth basics of the US aircrafts is allways the same and it's based on reducing RCS of the aircraft -> but that's not the only way how the aircraft can reveal it's presence in the area. As for agility of F-22 or Su-37, Su-47. F-22 will be powerfull bot only for the amount of builded aircrafts (quantity). Su-37 have the capability that with 180 degree vertical turn can made aircraft to fly reverse -> that means backward. Tell me, or better way - show me which western aircraft is capable of this? Our country is in NATO so wester technology is mixed up here with eastern. Ofcourse there are some parts in comunication or informatic digital battle that westerns are good with this, but there's nothing ultimate. Russia already does have Jammer devices that can jamm frequency on whic informatic digital battle devices are operating on. As for Su-47 or Mig1.44 India is interrested toghether with China to buy some models and test them. India have succesfully made upgrade of Mig-21 93 airplanes with Stealth technology, and are very pleased with the results, so one of this models are next. And one more thing, Su-47 is said to have new HOTAS implementation parts, like pilot life support monitoring system, pilot and its seat are situated in the cocpit under a certain angle that reduces the g effect on the pilot body and thus this airplane can achieve turns with G>12++!!! Show me which aircraft is capable of this? Maybe the one Grumann made X-29 with forward swept wing - but that was unstable in flight. And what about AA weapons? like we all know, R-77 missile is much more outstanding than AIM-120, not only it have twice longer radius (basic version) than AMRAAM, but also does have the ability of tracking "Home on Jam" -> HOJ and have the ability of making G=30 turns which is almost 8g moore than AIM-120. There are few other Russian AA missiles that their guidance system was specially developed to track US stealth fighters. If I were you, I wouldn't underestimade Russia. Some experts say they are 5-6 years ahead of US science. Every thing I have told here - I can prove it with some official links.

Hey Flanky, you know what?

You keep on believing all that rhetoric. Keep on thinking that Russian avionics are better than US products. Keep on thinking that our missiles and aircraft cannot compare to Russian systems. Keep on thinking that air show maneuvers will help a combat pilot avoid being killed by an enemy.

Because, thats exactly what we want you to think.

Do you really think that the information about the F-22 and the AIM-120 available to the general public is accurate, or even relevant? Do you think that all those claims made by the Russians (who are desperately trying to sell anything they make) are accurate and unbiased? Do you really think that the US havsn't developed weapon systems that have unparalleled performance and capabilities, that are not generally known to the public?
We enjoy it when others think the same way you do, believing that US combat capabilities are all show and no substance. And I am not trying to be smug. We are more interested in winning military conflicts and keeping our servicemen alive that showing off to the rest of the world. Thats why we have places like Groom Lake and have aircraft and systems that you will never know about, until we feel that it is necessary for you to know.

Why don't you do a broad survey of air combat over that last 30 years or so and tell me of one conflict, just one, where Russian built aircraft played a major role in defeating a western-equipped enemy. Try starting with the Israeli-Syrian conflicts in the 1970's. Go anywhere from there. The records will show that our pilots and those we train and equip are superior in combat. And I see no reason to believe that this trend will not continue for the forseeable future.

Originally posted by Pyros


Why don't you do a broad survey of air combat over that last 30 years or so and tell me of one conflict, just one, where Russian built aircraft played a major role in defeating a western-equipped enemy. Try starting with the Israeli-Syrian conflicts in the 1970's. Go anywhere from there. The records will show that our pilots and those we train and equip are superior in combat.

What a joke its the man not the machine...back in the 1970s canadian Starfighters used to defeat Amercian Phantoms with ease...[eh for the newbes thats F-104 vs F-4]. On paper that should never have happened.

Thats why in resent mock dogfights both the Luftwaffe and the IAF whipped the americans soundly

"And I see no reason to believe that this trend will not continue for the forseeable future. "

[edit on 9-9-2004 by psteel]

Originally posted by Russian


American F-117A stealth bomber shot down over Yugoslavia in March of 1999. Pentagon officials confirmed that the aircraft was tracked by an unidentified radar and that two surface-to-air missile were fired at the F-117. Russian Minister of Defense announced that the aircraft was brought down by a Russian-made SA-6 mobile SAM working in concert with a ground radar.




The British Daily Telegraph on 12 November 1997 reported a CIA leak of Iraqi plans to buy the Czech-made Tamara electronic weapon system, which is capable of hitting US F-117 and B-2 Stealth bombers by tracking their electronic emissions.



The Iraqi government of President Saddam
Hussein is reported trying to acquire a Czech-built aircraft detection system
reputedly able to pinpoint top-secret stealth aircraft.

Nick Cook, the military aviation specialist with Jane's publishing organization
in London, told RFE/RL that Tamara is a passive detection system. He said it is
essentially a set of truck-mounted electronic listening devices arranged on the
ground in triangular pattern. These devices do not send out radar waves which
the stealth planes can avoid. He said that -- if the manufacturer's claims are
correct -- they instead pinpoint incoming planes by registering the electronic
"footprint" emitted by the planes themselves. These electronic emissions occur
regularly as aircraft establish their position and lock on to their targets.


this is the radar i was talking about...

That is true but any stealth aircraft can be targeted by any radar. The stealth technology the US has does not completely eliminate a planes radar signature, rather it diminishes it. Stealth reduces radar's effeciency but does not render it useless. I'm not surprised that those SAM's shot the F-117 down. For one the F-117's, as mentioned numerous times, is quite old and outdated. And was this not a daytime mission? Stealth planes as of now are not "stealthy" to the human eye nor ear. Almost any missile would be able to lock on to the F-117 if given those advantages. The stealth we use today does not totally erase a plane's radar, visual, or audio signature but greatly diminishes it. The pilot is responsible to still avoid any danger.

been reading this thread and decided to post.

I have heard rumours of an incident where a unique type of Australian radar picked up a US stealth aircraft. The US Air Force didn't expect this and made the Australian Military not sell it to anyone.

Just a rumour.

The F-22 will be a mighty fine machine once all the bugs are ironed out and the pilots know her abilities well. But it is ignorance to think that the Russians or any other military power wouldn't eventually come up with something better or something to counter it. All throughout history every new military advance has been met with a counter for it.

The Ruskies know how to build aircraft.

thanks,
drfunk

For a website which extolls "deny ignorance" i've seen a lot of it in this thread so i'll wade into the mess myself. Stealth is not invisible, shape and radar absorbing materials have limits, they reduce the range in which the aircraft can be 1: detected and 2: tracked. Detection ranges are longer than tracking and involve not only the RCS of the aircraft but active sensors as well, if you're using your radar that can be detected giving away your position. Radar systems for air defence come in many types, frequency ranges and pulse waveforms. It was known back in the 80's in open source material that a square waveform has much more capability over RAM than sinusoidal waveforms. PCM in radio controlled aircraft transmitters operate in square wave so its not exactly an archaic technology.

For those who believe the Russians have a monopoly on supermaneuverability think again, evidently you don't even bother to look on the Raptor official site or bother to watch TV recently, it has been demonstrated to do full tailslides, Cobras and vector rolls much like a thrust vectored Flanker can do. One of the design goals was to have that capability using only aerodynamic controls, the tails have very good pitch authority, more than you'd give then credit for given their "moment arm" is so close to the wing. Thrust vectoring does many things, it takes work out of the horizontal stabilizers in pitch so the slabs can do more input in roll, that's why at even 60 degrees alpha it can still roll, an F-15 does not have any capacity to roll once its up to approx 30 degrees alpha.

I'd suggest the Fox News story with Greta Van Susteren, the Las Vegas television station that had a recent Raptor test vid and of course the official site which has 3 high quality vids of tailslides, high angle of attack testing, manufacture, climate hangar testing and weapons tests.

So try to use Google a little more effectively, and try to keep pure opinion out unless you have some basis in fact in which to back it up.

Deny Ignorance, its not a phrase here, its not lip service, do it or look like a tard.

Originally posted by Flanky
Hey ppl stop talking nonsense. As for F-22, F-22 can be undetectable only if it will not transmitt any signals and that is impossible (communication, radar, etc.) Czech radar system tamara is NOT only active radar device but also passive (my father was working on it), and thus can track targets based not only active radar contact but also based on Radar waves transmission or Comunication transmition.

That's why Raptor's radar uses wide frequency band so that total power in certain frequency is very small.
Also passive radar isn't allmighty, it can tell direction where other is but it can't tell anything about distance.
But who would use anything active whe nattacking defended area?

Su-37 have the capability that with 180 degree vertical turn can made aircraft to fly reverse -> that means backward. Tell me, or better way - show me which western aircraft is capable of this?

No it isn't capable, physics laws denie it unless you can "reverse" engines.
You can do it short time but it will fast stop plane's movement.
Cobra is greatly overrespected, against enemy with high off-boresight missiles it just makes you sitting duck. (because of former)
Also it causes risk of compressor stall and you wouldn't want that.

...Su-47 is said to have new HOTAS implementation parts, like pilot life support monitoring system, pilot and its seat are situated in the cocpit under a certain angle that reduces the g effect on the pilot body and thus this airplane can achieve turns with G>12++!!!

Show me which aircraft is capable of this? Maybe the one Grumann made X-29 with forward swept wing - but that was unstable in flight
...
R-77 missile is much more outstanding than AIM-120, not only it have twice longer radius (basic version) than AMRAAM, but also does have the ability of tracking "Home on Jam" -> HOJ

Su-47 is also prototype/technology testbed, Russians just don't use own designation for those planes like US's X-serie.
Also unstability is that which makes it maneuverable and to turn fast so that's not negative thing.

AMRAAM has also capability to home to jamming. (well, that's just this passive homing)

Some experts say they are 5-6 years ahead of US science. Every thing I have told here - I can prove it with some official links.

LOL, "official" lies.
Whole eastern block was based mainly on lies and deceit about superiority of their system and living standards.
Like after WW2 Finland was forced to rent couple areas for bases to Soviets. They made troop transfers using trains and when trains where in Finland's area all windows were covered so that soldiers of "workers paradise" couldn't see that living standards were much higher here. (because it would have been against what their leaders told them)
Also in many areas there lot of houses in good condition are still those made by Finnish before WW2. Well, actually places there doesn't differ much from that what they where when that "peacefull workers paradise" conquered area.

Biggest thing working "well" there today is corruption, even heating systems in cities don't work at winters just because moneys just "disappear" before they get to where they were meant to.

Actually the Raptor radar works in a fairly narrow band of frequencies, the radome was constructed to selectively "pass" the frequencies it uses while denying other frequencies from threat radars getting through and hitting the (necessarily reflective) active elements of the APG 77. Under normal conditions even if a threat radar did get signals inside the radome, the angle the radar is mounted reflects the enemy signals upwards. As the Raptor has an altitude advantage over known threat aircraft an upward reflection takes care of the worst of the backscatter reflection. The radome was one of the very hardest technologies to develop, very classified.

The Low Probability of Intercept (LPI) capability of the radar defeats conventional RWR/ESM systems. The AN/APG-77 radar is capable of performing an active radar search on RWR/ESM equipped fighter aircraft without the target knowing he is being illuminated. Unlike conventional radars which emit high energy pulses in a narrow frequency band, the AN/APG-77 emits low energy pulses over a wide frequency band using a technique called spread spectrum transmission. When multiple echoes are returned, the radar's signal processor combines the signals. The amount of energy reflected back to the target is about the same as a conventional radar, but because each LPI pulse has considerably less amount of energy and may not fit normal modulation patterns, the target will have a difficult time detecting the F-22.

www.globalsecurity.org...
Need to say more about that question?

While I certainly have nothing against the Lockmart F-22, I question that we may be, once again, preparing to fight the last war.

I propose that an air superiority fighter is not nearly as cost- or mission-effective as a C4I2 suite spread across a wide range of assets; the last time we fought a war where an air superiority fighter made a difference was, I believe, Korea, where the North American F-86 was matched against the Mikoyan-Gurevitch MiG-15.

I think the concept of the F-35 is a good one, and I am sure that it makes a lot more sense than the F-22; either way, though, I doubt iof we will see many manned weapons systems procured over the next, say, 30 years.

Not even to defend ourselves? America has many enemies because of some mistakes and some generousness, so we are under constant threat from terrorist or rouge nations and even some developed nations. As long as you're are a superpower it doesn't matter how advanced you are compared to your closest rivals, never let down your defense and stay as far ahead as possible.

Damn russian read the post and respond to it don't say STFU. Don't try to stop us from talking about the Raptor just cuz it pisses you off you cant beat it. And if you don't like the topic don't post on it genius!!!