Russian Air Force vs. US Airforce

Actually, it would be harder than you realize. One of the bases I lived on had a helicopter go down, and we knew about it two hours before the media did. You can say how easy it is for the gov't to hide something, but you don't realize how the "base rumor mill" works. If there's ANYTHING out of the ordinary with the birds, it WILL get out. There are enough people that hang around in areas on base watching that will suddenly notice they haven't seen a certain bird in awhile, or someone will call home when it happens and say they lost one, to reassure their family that it wasn't them.

It's ESPECIALLY hard to hide something like a B-2 going down when there are so FEW of them. The fewer there are, the harder it is to keep quiet that you lost one.

While that may be true, you still present no proof that a B-2 was shot down.

Where is the wreckage? Wouldnt it be on display along with the F-117? Why would the US release info on the F-117 but not the B-2?

Originally posted by BlackWidow23
While that may be true, you still present no proof that a B-2 was shot down.

Where is the wreckage? Wouldnt it be on display along with the F-117? Why would the US release info on the F-117 but not the B-2?

being served in Serbia, I sure know many things US military has denied, 1st of all F-15 being shot down over Yugoslavia, US of course claimed it was Mig-29, what a joke. then F-117 was shut down and the B-2A bomber, which was denied, russians got all the parts of it. It is known fact in Yugoslavia, that US likes to deny the facts.

www.agitprop.org.au...

[edit on 16-6-2007 by K_galmine]

This is getting ridicules, the claims that a B-2 was shot down and that hordes of US aircraft were also lost are nothing but false wishful thinking.

Originally posted by K_galmine

Originally posted by BlackWidow23
While that may be true, you still present no proof that a B-2 was shot down.

Where is the wreckage? Wouldnt it be on display along with the F-117? Why would the US release info on the F-117 but not the B-2?

being served in Serbia, I sure know many things US military has denied, 1st of all F-15 being shot down over Yugoslavia, US of course claimed it was Mig-29, what a joke. then F-117 was shut down and the B-2A bomber, which was denied, russians got all the parts of it. It is known fact in Yugoslavia, that US likes to deny the facts.

www.agitprop.org.au...

[edit on 16-6-2007 by K_galmine]

That is by far the most ridiculous anti-american sheet of propoganda I have yet to see on this forum. That is no proof! That is just some serbian nationalist sad that his whole air force was blown up.

Originally posted by WestPoint23
This is getting ridicules, the claims that a B-2 was shot down and that hordes of US aircraft were also lost are nothing but false wishful thinking.

FALSE UNSUPPORTED CLAIMS NO LESS!

Let me ask you this - If a B-2 was shot down, why havent the russians said anything about it? They meant to deal a blow to stealth's reputation by admitting that they used F-117 wreckage in tests, so why wouldnt they say that they used the B-2 as well? If they really wanted to smash all faith in stealth, thats what they would do.

Originally posted by Zaphod58
Actually, it would be harder than you realize. One of the bases I lived on had a helicopter go down, and we knew about it two hours before the media did. You can say how easy it is for the gov't to hide something, but you don't realize how the "base rumor mill" works. If there's ANYTHING out of the ordinary with the birds, it WILL get out. There are enough people that hang around in areas on base watching that will suddenly notice they haven't seen a certain bird in awhile, or someone will call home when it happens and say they lost one, to reassure their family that it wasn't them.

It's ESPECIALLY hard to hide something like a B-2 going down when there are so FEW of them. The fewer there are, the harder it is to keep quiet that you lost one.

There is a difference between Peacetime accidents, and wartime shootdowns, during wartime shoot downs, BaseRumores will keep quiet, out of "Partriotic duty", what I mean by keep quiet is the word will get out to the base personel, but it wont leak out to civilians, in a massive way, plus did you hear/see ANY OF THESE U.S. media outlets: A.B.C. C.B.S. N.B.C. FOXNEWS C.N.B.C. M.N.B.C. report on the 56 Airplanes, 32 Tanks, and 36 missiles, that were missing , I also find it funny who this was happening in 1999 after the Kosavo War, which Serbs claimed to have shot down many NATO planes. www.aim.org...

Originally posted by YASKY
There is a difference between Peacetime accidents, and wartime shootdowns, during wartime shoot downs, BaseRumores will keep quiet, out of "Partriotic duty", what I mean by keep quiet is the word will get out to the base personel, but it wont leak out to civilians, in a massive way, plus did you hear/see ANY OF THESE U.S. media outlets: A.B.C. C.B.S. N.B.C. FOXNEWS C.N.B.C. M.N.B.C. report on the 56 Airplanes, 32 Tanks, and 36 missiles, that were missing , I also find it funny who this was happening in 1999 after the Kosavo War, which Serbs claimed to have shot down many NATO planes. www.aim.org...

And bagdad bob was right when he said that the US military was being crushed and that there was no US tanks moving through baghdad at the time..


And why would the serbs not make such claims? Its propaganda and nothing more. you have still havent provided jack# in regards to TWO B2 bombers (a total over over 4 billion dollars when put together) having ever been shot down. Its hard to take the serbs serious on any of these claims because of all the different storys they have going around about what happened to the untold aircraft that were shot down... All there stories just dont add up. And if you think the US gov would hide the fact that TWO b2 bombers had been lost your crazy. This would actually give the defense industry an excuse to go after more funding so they can stay an extra lap ahead of the closest competitor. Can you please pull your head out of your ass for 2 seconds and look at it from our side? It doesnt sound very realisitic.



[edit on 103030p://3006pm by semperfoo]

Originally posted by YASKY
There is a difference between Peacetime accidents, and wartime shootdowns, during wartime shoot downs, BaseRumores will keep quiet, out of "Partriotic duty", what I mean by keep quiet is the word will get out to the base personel, but it wont leak out to civilians, in a massive way, plus did you hear/see ANY OF THESE U.S. media outlets: A.B.C. C.B.S. N.B.C. FOXNEWS C.N.B.C. M.N.B.C. report on the 56 Airplanes, 32 Tanks, and 36 missiles, that were missing , I also find it funny who this was happening in 1999 after the Kosavo War, which Serbs claimed to have shot down many NATO planes. www.aim.org...

There is NO difference. In wartime it would get out even faster around the base, because the call would be made to tell the families that their loved ones were safe. The B-2s were operating out of Whiteman, and every knew it. So it's not like they were at some super secret forward operating location. And even if it didn't go out through the news media, it would get out through friends, to someone else, to someone else, to someone else, until word got around. And for the missing planes, tanks, and missiles, that's happened in the past. They get decommissioned, are destroyed or put into storage, and someone forgets to file the paperwork showing it. They still show as active in inventory when they're either destroyed or sitting in a warehouse somewhere.

So if the B-2 was the Spirit of Missouri (as all the sources claim) how has it been flown in Iraqi Freedom, or for that matter, how was it at an open house in 2005? I've seen pictures of it operating in both of those. Oh wait, they hid the $2B and bought a replacement right? Planes have quirks that are unique to the individual airframe. Any pilot that had time in the "original" would notice that suddenly it was flying very differently than before.

Originally posted by semperfoo

Originally posted by YASKY
There is a difference between Peacetime accidents, and wartime shootdowns, during wartime shoot downs, BaseRumores will keep quiet, out of "Partriotic duty", what I mean by keep quiet is the word will get out to the base personel, but it wont leak out to civilians, in a massive way, plus did you hear/see ANY OF THESE U.S. media outlets: A.B.C. C.B.S. N.B.C. FOXNEWS C.N.B.C. M.N.B.C. report on the 56 Airplanes, 32 Tanks, and 36 missiles, that were missing , I also find it funny who this was happening in 1999 after the Kosavo War, which Serbs claimed to have shot down many NATO planes. www.aim.org...

And bagdad bob was right when he said that the US military was being crushed and that there was no US tanks moving through baghdad at the time..

And why would the serbs not make such claims? Its propaganda and nothing more. you have still havent provided jack# in regards to TWO B2 bombers (a total over over 4 billion dollars when put together) having ever been shot down. Its hard to take the serbs serious on any of these claims because of all the different storys they have going around about what happened to the untold aircraft that were shot down... All there stories just dont add up. And if you think the US gov would hide the fact that TWO b2 bombers had been lost your crazy. This would actually give the defense industry an excuse to go after more funding so they can stay an extra lap ahead of the closest competitor. Can you please pull your head out of your ass for 2 seconds and look at it from our side? It doesnt sound very realisitic.



[edit on 103030p://3006pm by semperfoo]

I think YOU are the one that is CRASY OUT OF YOUR MIND, to think U.S. Gov would NOT hide it from Americans, the Gov keeps telling you, this is s a"Democracy" when it is a Republic, the 16th-27th Amendments were passed without 2/3 Majority Vote from "Congress and 3/4 Majority votes from the Govenors of the States, so if Americans can't understand these simple things, how are they to understand it's easy to hide info about war casualties.

Originally posted by YASKY

Originally posted by semperfoo

Originally posted by YASKY
There is a difference between Peacetime accidents, and wartime shootdowns, during wartime shoot downs, BaseRumores will keep quiet, out of "Partriotic duty", what I mean by keep quiet is the word will get out to the base personel, but it wont leak out to civilians, in a massive way, plus did you hear/see ANY OF THESE U.S. media outlets: A.B.C. C.B.S. N.B.C. FOXNEWS C.N.B.C. M.N.B.C. report on the 56 Airplanes, 32 Tanks, and 36 missiles, that were missing , I also find it funny who this was happening in 1999 after the Kosavo War, which Serbs claimed to have shot down many NATO planes. www.aim.org...

And bagdad bob was right when he said that the US military was being crushed and that there was no US tanks moving through baghdad at the time..

And why would the serbs not make such claims? Its propaganda and nothing more. you have still havent provided jack# in regards to TWO B2 bombers (a total over over 4 billion dollars when put together) having ever been shot down. Its hard to take the serbs serious on any of these claims because of all the different storys they have going around about what happened to the untold aircraft that were shot down... All there stories just dont add up. And if you think the US gov would hide the fact that TWO b2 bombers had been lost your crazy. This would actually give the defense industry an excuse to go after more funding so they can stay an extra lap ahead of the closest competitor. Can you please pull your head out of your ass for 2 seconds and look at it from our side? It doesnt sound very realisitic.



[edit on 103030p://3006pm by semperfoo]

I think YOU are the one that is CRASY OUT OF YOUR MIND, to think U.S. Gov would NOT hide it from Americans, the Gov keeps telling you, this is s a"Democracy" when it is a Republic, the 16th-27th Amendments were passed without 2/3 Majority Vote from "Congress" and 3/4 Majority votes from the "Govenors of the States", so if Americans can't understand these simple things, how are they to understand it's easy to hide info about war casualties.

Originally posted by Zaphod58
So if the B-2 was the Spirit of Missouri (as all the sources claim) how has it been flown in Iraqi Freedom, or for that matter, how was it at an open house in 2005? I've seen pictures of it operating in both of those. Oh wait, they hid the $2B and bought a replacement right? Planes have quirks that are unique to the individual airframe. Any pilot that had time in the "original" would notice that suddenly it was flying very differently than before.

Post a source showing the Spirit Of Missouri, don't judt tell us, "Iv'e Seen It"

From the Sept 2005 Reactivation of the 13th Bombardment Squadron.
home.st.net.au...

At an undisclosed base during Iraqi Freedom.

Originally posted by Zaphod58


From the Sept 2005 Reactivation of the 13th Bombardment Squadron.
home.st.net.au...

At an undisclosed base during Iraqi Freedom.

1. The first link doesn't work.
2. The Picture does'nt show that it is the "Spirit Of Missouri" B2 it's just a B2

The first link works just fine for me.

If you bother to READ about the supposed shoot down, they give you the USAF serial number of Spirit of Missouri. Just to save you a little trouble, since you apparently didn't bother to, it's 88-0329. You will NOT see another plane with a tail number that is the same. If you look on the nose gear door of the second picture, oh look, it matches perfectly to the Spirit of Missouri 80329. Which is how the USAF numbers them. Last digit of the year, and then serial number.

And here, let me give you the relevant portions of the page.

On Sept. 23, 2005 the 13th Bomb. Sq. (Grim Reapers) and their mascot "Oscar" were, once again, reactivated. Since their inception in 1917 they have been deactivated and reactivated (according to the needs of the nation) so many times, old "Oscar" has got to feel a little like a yoyo.

In his 88 year life old "Oscar" has flown in many different Aircraft, starting with the French Spad in WW I. In WW II he flew in B-25s, A-20s and A-26s. In Korea it was the A-26 and in Viet Nam he entered the Jet age in the B-57. He will now be flying the latest thing in aviation technology - the B-2 Stealth Bomber."

This one is the new home of "Oscar", The landing Gear cover of the B-2 Stealth Bomber. He shares space with the name of the aircraft (this one being "Spirit of Missouri", 13th B.S. and "Grim Reapers".

home.st.net.au...

The first picture is the same one from that caption.

Originally posted by Zaphod58
The first link works just fine for me.

If you bother to READ about the supposed shoot down, they give you the USAF serial number of Spirit of Missouri. Just to save you a little trouble, since you apparently didn't bother to, it's 88-0329. You will NOT see another plane with a tail number that is the same. If you look on the nose gear door of the second picture, oh look, it matches perfectly to the Spirit of Missouri 80329. Which is how the USAF numbers them. Last digit of the year, and then serial number.

And here, let me give you the relevant portions of the page.

On Sept. 23, 2005 the 13th Bomb. Sq. (Grim Reapers) and their mascot "Oscar" were, once again, reactivated. Since their inception in 1917 they have been deactivated and reactivated (according to the needs of the nation) so many times, old "Oscar" has got to feel a little like a yoyo.

In his 88 year life old "Oscar" has flown in many different Aircraft, starting with the French Spad in WW I. In WW II he flew in B-25s, A-20s and A-26s. In Korea it was the A-26 and in Viet Nam he entered the Jet age in the B-57. He will now be flying the latest thing in aviation technology - the B-2 Stealth Bomber."

This one is the new home of "Oscar", The landing Gear cover of the B-2 Stealth Bomber. He shares space with the name of the aircraft (this one being "Spirit of Missouri", 13th B.S. and "Grim Reapers".

home.st.net.au...

The first picture is the same one from that caption.

the number is 880329, the picture has 80329, so it's not the same, Plane.

You're really starting to reach here. Do you SERIOUSLY believe that the USAF is going to have two B-2s with IDENTICAL tail numbers in inventory?

Read what I said about how the USAF numbers their planes. I realize it's a very difficult concept to understand. I'll go very very slowly this time.

If the FULL tail number is 880329, then the number you will see ON THE NOSE GEAR DOOR is 80329. Tail numbers show the aircraft number, and the year it was made. The number on the plane is 5 digits, the full tail number is 6. The ONLY difference is that they drop 1 digit from the year. 80329 IS 880329. You will NEVER see two planes with tail numbers that are identical in the US military inventory. 880329 and 80329 would NEVER happen, because THEY'RE THE SAME PLANE. Fighters and some bombers use a slightly different system, where they show the full year as the first two digits, and the next three are the serial number. However, on the B-2 nose gear door, it's the last digit of the year, followed by serial number.

Here, let me make this really easy for you. This page lists EVERY serial number of USAF planes built from 1941. Please go through it and find the B-2s, and find the other B-2 that has 80329 as the tail number.

Here are several examples of tail numbers.

Full tail number 63-8041:



Full tail number 87-0028:




Full tail number 73-1667:



Notice a recurring theme here? On the SIDE of the B-2 they put the year and serial number. On the nose gear, they put the standard tail number, where they drop a digit from the year, and put the serial number.

Full tail number 90-0041:



Spirit of Arizona, from the side, where you can see the tail number 82-1067:



Same bomber from the front, notice they drop the 8, and just have 21067:





[edit on 6/18/2007 by Zaphod58]

Originally posted by WestPoint23
Or perhaps it might show the end result of not utilizing and fully exploiting a clear and decisive military advantage.

Agreed but how decisive is the advantage when they bombed ( proving they can get bombs on at least something) so many decoy targets?

I understand, but still it does not matter what they claim, the public informational and verifiable sources largely indicate otherwise. As such, Serbian claims have to be taken with caution.

Well when you control large sections of the world's primary media outlets the lies are obviously going to sound more logical than whatever those who disagree says. We know that the US has for the last sixty years staged more foreign interventions than at least it's five nearest rivals combined and just how many people know about that? Does what the majority of the 'informed' people decide what happened and if so why does the print in older books not change when the propaganda trends does?

As it stands the US GAO admitted said that the US army could not find 56 aircraft and that is interesting if you add the half a dozen that US forces lost due to 'accidents' in the campaign against Serbia. Why does the Serbians claim 61 shot down and this math gets at that number? Since it is clearly just one of those strange coincidences , that keeps cropping up, i can't do much but ask why anyone should believe in coincidences.

It is clear from the amount and quality of intelligence received by this journal from a variety of highly-reputable sources that NATO forces have already suffered significant losses of men, women and materiel. Neither NATO, nor the US, UK or other member governments, have admitted to these losses, other than the single USAF F-117A Stealth fighter which was shown, crashed and burning inside Serbia.

The Chairman of the US Joint Chiefs of Staff had denied, about a month into the bombing, that the US had suffered the additional losses reported to Defense & Foreign Affairs.

By April 20, 1999, NATO losses stood at approximately the following:

* 38 fixed-wing combat aircraft;
* Six helicopters;
* Seven unmanned aerial vehicles (UAVs);
* “Many” Cruise Missiles (lost to AAA or SAM fire).

www.aeronautics.ru...

Editor Sunday January 23, 2000

"The Royal Air Force is facing a frontline 'crisis' with hundreds of jets unable to fly, a shortage of crack fighter pilots and millions of pounds wasted on technology that does not work. In what insiders say is a chronic problem facing Britain's air defences and strike attack force, an Observer investigation has discovered that:

MoD figures given to the Liberal Democrat defence spokesman, Menzies Campbell, reveal that only 53 out of the country's 186 Tornado GR1/4 bombers are ready to fly immediately, In June 1998the comparable figure was 81. The majority of other frontline jets are also grounded. Only 34 out of 90 Harriers are fully serviceable, 28 out of 76 Jaguars and 59 out of 112 Tornado F3 fighter aircraft. The majority of the RAF's helicopters are in a similar situation: only 55 out of 119 are fully operational.

www.aeronautics.ru...

So what happened between June 1998 and January 2000?

I don't know what to make of it but since my nose is rarely letting me down these days i think you should spend a bit more time checking out these sources&claims before you so recklessly assume that the US government can lie about WOMD ( that has so far gotten AT LEAST 3500 American soldiers killed and ten thousand seriously wounded while hiding the fact that possible as many as million Iraqi's have died as direct result of the invasion and occupation ) but not about losing a few dozen planes and pilots.

Every conflict is different, I do not find the above hard to believe, in fact it's the other way around. Understand past lessons and apply them.

The USAF were a far more capable force back in 1991 ( before the 'post' cold war mismanagement set in ) and to suggest that they could lose on 5 planes nearly ten years later with a fraction of the DEAD/SEAD equipment of 1991 is not in my opinion defensible.

Oh really? Red Flag and most other large combined force exercises in the US DO simulate double digit SAM systems and an intense EW/ECM environment.

Well they say they do but is it not clear that they could not even handle 1960/70 era air defenses by any other means than general avoidance? Why not engage and destroy such defenses if your so good at it? Why claim hundreds of destroy enemy weapons systems when you did not manage to destroy even a fraction of that? Who is fooling who here?

And if you look at the results of those exercises (and even recent real world US results) you'll see that there have been no "absolutely horrendous casualties...".

I have looked at the real world results and all i see is even backwards third world nations that must be battered for decades before invasion and occupation becomes possible.

I disagree, I tend to think that Russia could not sustain a defensive ground to air campaign against NATO.

And your entitled to that opinion even if i think recent history have given us plenty of evidence to the contrary.

Provided that NATO utilizes all of it's assets in an appropriate fashion of course.

And provided the Russians don't use anything they have appropriately. How will the USAF fight SAM defenses that can displace or deploy in 5-10 minutes when it could not hunt down those that did so daily or every other day? I have my doubts but i hope neither of our stances are validated any year soon!

Stellar