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2008 Conservative Presidential Candidates

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posted on Aug, 12 2007 @ 08:02 AM
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posted by xpert11
Don you are making the mistake of clumping all the wars you mentioned into one group. Hamid Karzai has a mandate from the Afghan people and the Government of Afghanistan has done very well considering the tribal divisions in that country. The security situation in Afghanistan now limits what political progress the government of that country.


Double speak. The Afghans are not small letter “d” democrats. They are a group of tribes that have survived in a hostile land for millennia. The Brits moved into the region in the 18th century when they conquered what was loosely called the “sub-continent” running up to the Himalayas. For the convenience of London, the Brits marked off the region into administrative districts or regions that have morphed into India, Pakistan, Afghanistan and Bangladesh of today. Add Kashmir, Nepal and Bhutan to the hegemony of Great Britain.

The post Taliban election in Afghan was staged by the United States more for American domestic consumption than for anything it would accomplish in Afghan. We - Bush43 and Condo - viewed it as a win-win undertaking. For sure it would keep the good and trusting folks back home in line and if it actually worked in Afghan, we’d have our man in place there. Throw in a compliant - supplicant? - news media back home and you have Afghan in 2007 where our side - Karzai - could not win a dog catcher’s post. Just as in Iraq, we must make plans to permit those in our pay - lackeys - to come here when it collapses or be killed by their fellow citizens as traitors.


The government of Iraq has proven to be weak and ineffective


IF as you are implying, Mr X11, that the Iraqi people are now small “d” democrats and IF as you may be further implying that the numerous elections WE conducted in Iraq, have produced the “People’s Choices” then why is the government so WEAK? More Double Speak!

Do you not see a gap in that logic? Like the Grand Canyon. The false premises on which that claim is based? The US tried to work a re-run of the Brit's 1922 endeavor to subjugate those Arabs who are living in the region the UK named Iraq. Treaty of Versailles, dissolution of the Ottoman Empre. The US effort has failed in 2007 as it failed in the Brits earleri effort.

If you don’t know your history, you are doomed to repeat it.


The US lost the Vietnam war because the US military had no idea how to fight a counter insurgency war.


First, despite what Col. Hackworth said, there was NO insurgency. Every VC - Viet-Cong - and every NVA soldier was born in Vietnam. Just as Col. Hackworth has mislabeled the combatants, so also he never understood that little yellow people could want a free country too, just like us big white guys. Don’t overlook that Ho Chi Minh came to America before he went to Russia. We choose to back France. We lost 59,000 KIA for that error.

We owe it to those dead GIs to get it right at least. To figure out WHY they died so young. So maybe we don’t repeat the same #!@& mistake again. As in Iraq. Or Afghan. Or Iran. Or North Korea. Or old Palestine. Or Venezuela or Bolivia or Nicaragua. And on and on and on . . .

Between 1962 and 1974 we - America - killed by our own admission 1,000,000 Vietnamese. That’s a lot of people. All of Cleveland with Toledo thrown in. Hanoi’s DRV government says we killed 3,000,000 people. I say 99% of whom were civilians we love to call INNOCENT when on our side. Hmm? I thought we agreed at Dresden, Hiroshima and Nagasaki there were NO innocent people in war? That today’s baby is tomorrow’s infiltrator.


The social changes that occurred during era also saw the disgusting treatment of those who served in Vietnam. The North Vietnam's were also so called liberates of the people and many of the opponents of the seem to side with them much like some people defend the insurgents in Iraq.


“Disgusting treatment?” I say, urban legend. Our overly-numerous pro-war types love to recite the one or two true incidents and manufacture all the others on an “as needed” basis. Hype the war! Blame it’s loss on Jane Fonda or First Amendment protesters. Shucks, when you have to choose between the First and a good war, the First is always Last!

Yes, I supported Ho Chi Minh then and I support Ho Chi Minh now. One of a dozen or so true patriots of the 20th century. Nelson Mandela. Ernesto Guevara. Fidel Castro. Cesar Chavez and on and on. Men and women willing to die for the people they serve. And many of them do. I had enough gumption to know that living a colonial life under the French was not Paradise Lost.

[edit on 8/12/2007 by donwhite]




posted on Aug, 12 2007 @ 08:41 AM
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Originally posted by donwhite
The post Taliban election in Afghan was staged by the United States more for American domestic consumption than for anything it would accomplish in Afghan. We - Bush43 and Condo - viewed it as a win-win undertaking. For sure it would keep the good and trusting folks back home in line and if it actually worked in Afghan,


U mm if the Afghan people weren't happy as a whole would have boycotted any elections that took place as a way of protesting there imposed leaders.
All I was saying is that Iraq's leaders are ineffective. The fact that the approach you support failed to prevent 9-11 is enough for me to oppose it.




“Disgusting treatment?” I say, urban legend. Our overly-numerous pro-war types love to recite the one or two true incidents and manufacture all the others on an “as needed” basis. Hype the war! Blame it’s loss on Jane Fonda or First Amendment protesters. Shucks, when you have to choose between the First and a good war, the First is always Last!


Service men being spat on after they got back from Vietnam , wacky ideas about troops being baby killers and WW2 veterans not regarding there Vietnam counterparts as real veterans none of those things are urban legends. If you go back and read what I said I never blamed the First Amendment protesters for the US losing the Vietnam war. Personally I cant stand those people who subscribe to that logic but that is another topic.


Yes, I supported Ho Chi Minh then and I support Ho Chi Minh now. One of a dozen or so true patriots of the 20th century.


This is the mentality that I will never understand providing a group of people use propaganda to claim that they are liberators some people will support them no matter what kind of brutal acts they perform.
Besides what kind of patriot doesn't have a problem with forcing people to join there cause , taking rice from villages and other such acts ?

If I supported such people I couldn't sleep at night. Don this is also my opinion in general and not just directed at you.

[edit on 12-8-2007 by xpert11]



posted on Aug, 12 2007 @ 09:48 AM
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posted by xpert11
All I was saying is that Iraq's leaders are ineffective. The fact that the approach you support failed to prevent 9-11 is enough for me to oppose it.


Yes, the Iraqi leaders are ineffective. But WHY?

The al Maliki government has the unlimited backing of 160,000 US Armed Forces; perhaps 300,000 Iraqi police, national guard and army. They have $12 b. a month to spend, squander or to use for bribes or to steal all or any part; so what keeps them from being “Effective?” There is a very large gap here.

It sounds ideological to me. We’re trying to impose an authoritarian government of our choosing empowered by a document we wrote, on 25 million Iraqi and MOST of them (i.e., 24 million) don’t want any part of it.

ONLY Bush43 and his Neo Con Government connect Iraq with the Nine Eleven Event.

So what’s one got to do with the other? Nothing.


Service men being spat on after they got back from Vietnam , wacky ideas about troops being baby killers and WW2 veterans not regarding there Vietnam counterparts as real veterans none of those things are urban legends.


Like the 26 pictures they showed us over and over in the 1991 First Punative Expedition to Iraq? Bomb down vent shaft, bomb on bridge, but only 26 pics. 100% on target. We know that is a LIE. Guided bombs are better than iron bombs, like 80% to 10% but not the perfect storm as in the 26 pictures. Count’em.

I have seen one count’em, 1 pic showing a bystander spitting on marching soldiers. The American Legion is a Right Wing organization (like the NRA) to which I do not belong. I never liked the American Legion. I am a Life Member of the VFW and a Life Member of the DAV.


This is the mentality that I will never understand providing a group of people use propaganda to claim that they are liberators some people will support them no matter what kind of brutal acts they perform . . If I supported such people I couldn't sleep at night. Don this is also my opinion in general and not just directed at you.


Donald Rumsfeld who I call ‘Herr Oberfuhrer’ for his Nazi-like beliefs and policies - Abu Ghraib, Guantanamo Bay, water boarding, etc - put it succinctly when he said in response to criticism for sending our men into harms way without body armor or armored Humvees, “You fight with what you have not with what you’d want.”

Assuming you are referring to suicide bombers, let me point out that we have killed far more people in Iraq by misguided bombs and stray shots than the suicide bombers have killed. Are we opposed to killing any people or just to our opponents who are killing our presumed supporters? Is this a principle of ours or is it just a tactic?

From the POV of the dead Iraqi, does it matter if you are dead became an American bomb went astray or a bullet missed its intended target, OR a suicide bomber choose to blow up himself at a most inopportune moment? One killing GOOD, another killing BAD. Hmm?

I am satisfied only highly motivated, completely frustrated and essentially hopeless people become suicide bombers.It’s got very little to do with virgins or jihad. The virgins being pure religious intolerance at its worst. Cheap propaganda.

But it follows Joseph Goebbels dictum, “A big lie told often will become the truth!” Oh no, they protest, we only HATE Radical Muslims. We LOVE the other Muslims. Yeah. Tell me another fairy tale.

Like it or not, this is a truism: One man's hero is another man's terrorist.

It won’t end until we can talk face to face with our adversaries. (Without pre-conditions).

[edit on 8/12/2007 by donwhite]



posted on Aug, 12 2007 @ 03:16 PM
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As a historian, I'm going to be interested to see how the Republicans wash the stink of Iraq off their image. I say this as a supporter of the war. It was sold to us us for all the wrong reason, and that bothers me when I know there were so many better reasons that could have been given. The incompetence displayed so far has been staggering. All the military wisdom of West Point thrown out like so much bath water. All the political lessons from Vietnam forgotten witha speed that would make any NASCAR fan jealous. The GOP has a real PR challnege on its hands.

Now then. On to other things. Have you folks seen the results of the Iowa straw poll? What says you all about that?



posted on Aug, 12 2007 @ 04:42 PM
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posted by Justin Oldham
As a historian, I'm going to be interested to see how the Republicans wash the stink of Iraq off their image. Now then. On to other things. Have you folks seen the results of the Iowa straw poll? What says you all about that?


Yes and No. I heard the poll mentioned on CNN. Romney won by a large majority, followed by Huckabee and Brownback in double digits. I don’t have the numbers but it said all others were in single digits.

Out of 14,302 persons voting,

Giuliani, NOT RUNNING
McCain, NOT RUNNING
Fred Thompson, NOT RUNNING
Mit Romney, 31.5%, 4,505 votes
Mike Huckabee, 18.1% 2,589 votes
Sam Brownback, 15.3% 2,188 votes
Tom Tancredo, unknown
Ron Paul, unknown
Tommy Thompson, unknown

[edit on 8/12/2007 by donwhite]



posted on Aug, 12 2007 @ 08:04 PM
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Iraq's leaders are ineffective because they are unable to overcome the deep ethnic differences no amount over money can solve such a problem. Also you have to be mindful that elements of the local security forces can be unreliable.

My Dad was spat on when he returned from Vietnam so the poor treatment of returned servicemen was very real. I was against Gulf War two but I cant change what has happened nor can I change the fact that US forces are spread out to thinly which means that victory isnt possible in any of the two major theatres. You see here is the thing if weren't any suicide bombers , mass murders and so on there would be no need for the presence of coalition forces in Iraq. I think that there is cultural mind set that leads to the likes of suicide bombers and other brutal acts.

As for Iowa straw poll a lot can happen in six months and not all the candidates took part and I will highlight the poll main purpose below.


The straw poll was held on the campus of Iowa State University and is viewed as a test of organizational strength in Iowa. In almost every case, the candidates paid the $35 per person fee charged to vote in the straw poll. It's a major fundraiser for the state Republican Party


Source

This is just a case members of the national team helping out at the local sausage sizzle. I wouldn't put to much stock in the poll results.



posted on Aug, 12 2007 @ 08:56 PM
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posted by xpert11
Iraq's leaders are ineffective because they are unable to overcome the deep ethnic differences no amount over money can solve such a problem. Also you have to be mindful that elements of the local security forces can be unreliable.


1) If you and I know that, then why did not our Maritimum Leader know that in 2003? So how much longer do we stay in Iraq working on a real Mission Impossible? As of today, 3,704 KIA per one website and 27,004 WIA.
2) Our ill-informed goal at first was to have an “interchangeable” police force that would have Shia working in Sunni neighborhoods and vice versa. After 4 long years and 10,000 dead Iraqis wearing the blue, we have made the decision that we must have Shia police in Shia neighborhoods, Sunni police in Sunni neighborhoods. The Kurds are doing their own thing.

Notice I said “WE” and not "THEY." And that is TRULY the crux of the Iraq problem.


My Dad was spat on when he returned from Vietnam so the poor treatment of returned servicemen was very real. I was against Gulf War two but I cant change what has happened nor can I change the fact that US forces are spread out to thinly which means that victory isn’t possible in any of the two major theaters. You see here is the thing if weren't any suicide bombers , mass murders and so on there would be no need for the presence of coalition forces in Iraq. I think that there is cultural mind set that leads to the likes of suicide bombers and other brutal acts.


1) Adding your Dad makes 2 instances of spitting I am familiar with. Just as the MIA thing was a Republican inspired and promoted anti LBJ thing, so also were the stories about Left Wing Berkeley types spitting on our heroic soldiers. Or course, it was the National Guard that “SPIT” on the left wingers at Kent State. And the Alabama State Police that “SPIT” on the blacks at Jackson State. But there was more than spitting at issue then.
2) If you and I know that victory isn’t possible, then I must assume our Maximum Leader knows that. So how many more men and women must DIE in Iraq before we ACT on what we know?
3) Well, I think you’ve got it backwards. If there were no Coalition Forces in Iraq, there would be no need for suicide bombers and mass murderers. We have armored Humvees, Apache gun ships, and high tech mine sweepers. They use the weapons they have as we use the weapons we have.
4) You’re on to something here, Mr X11. A cultural mind set. Just as the Brits learned in the Boer Wars in South Africa, late 19th century, where the word “guerilla” was first used in print to describe local resistance forces. See Note. When the guerillas have popular support - as in Vietnam - uniformed armed forces cannot overwhelm them. As we are re-learning in Iraq. At considerable loss of American lives. But huge profits to Halliburton. Hmm?


As for Iowa straw poll a lot can happen in six months and not all the candidates took part and I will highlight the poll main purpose below. This is just a case members of the national team helping out at the local sausage sizzle. I wouldn't put to much stock in the poll results.


You have enlightened me on this topic, and my thanks, Mr X11. So does that mean Romney owes the organizers $157,675? And Huckabee a mere $90,615 while Brownback gets off owing only $76,580? I agree this poll is mostly for fun, not for serious politics.

Note: My favorite movie, Breaker Morant, featuring superstar Edward Woodward. 1960.

Butchered to make a Dutchman’s Holiday

In prison cell I sadly sit,
A damned crest-fallen chappie!
And own to you I feel a bit-
A little bit - unhappy!

It really ain't the place nor time
To reel off rhyming diction -
But yet we'll write a final rhyme
Whilst waiting cru-ci-fixion!

No matter what "end" they decide -
Quick-lime or "b'iling ile," sir?
We'll do our best when crucified
To finish off in style, sir!

But we bequeath a parting tip
For sound advice of such men,
Who come across in transport ship
To polish off the Dutchmen!

If you encounter any Boers
You really must not loot 'em!
And if you wish to leave these shores,
For pity's sake, DON'T SHOOT 'EM!!

And if you'd earn a D.S.O.,
Why every British sinner
Should know the proper way to go
Is: "ASK THE BOER TO DINNER!"

Let's toss a bumper down our throat, -
Before we pass to Heaven,
And toast: "The trim-set petticoat
We leave behind in Devon."

by Harry "Breaker" Morant (1864-1902)

[edit on 8/12/2007 by donwhite]



posted on Aug, 12 2007 @ 09:47 PM
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Originally posted by donwhite
2) If you and I know that victory isn’t possible, then I must assume our Maximum Leader knows that. So how many more men and women must DIE in Iraq before we ACT on what we know?


Well known as yet to define what Victory in Iraq exactly consists of and when you point this out to the wars die hard supporters they get there knickers in a twist. Barring a greater upset then Truman pulled off in 1948 the US presence in Iraq will end when the Dems win the White House in 08.



3) Well, I think you’ve got it backwards. If there were no Coalition Forces in Iraq, there would be no need for suicide bombers and mass murderers. We have armored Humvees, Apache gun ships, and high tech mine sweepers. They use the weapons they have as we use the weapons we have.


Your way off base there the primary target of the insurgents is fellow Iraqis and not coalition forces . The coalition in Iraq is struck in the middle of a civil war.
So when the coalition leaves Iraq the bloodshed is only going to increase in central and southern Iraq. The bloodshed will make the fall of Saigon look like a Sunday picnic in the park. In the north the Kurds will declare an independent state.

The decision to invade Iraq was idealogical driven and was planned as a quick victory and a pay off for those who supported Bush election as president .




When the guerillas have popular support - as in Vietnam - uniformed armed forces cannot overwhelm them.


First of all guerillas usually only enjoy the support of a small element of the population . If your ascertain was correct then local populations wouldn't be forced to support such groups under duresses. Don I suggest that you read up on the Malaysia Emergency and look into the role of the US allies in Vietnam from the likes Australian sources.

The scary thing is that you could perhaps argue that those who support the torture of terrorism suspects are heading toward the cultural mind set of the enemy.



posted on Aug, 13 2007 @ 03:17 AM
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Sad to say that we are at risk of becoming the very thing we are alleged to be fighting. On a side note, not only do I recall my father being poorly treated in a few cases after his return from Vietnam, but I sustained a rather serious school yard pummeling in 1978 as a result of such hostile attitude. I didn't win, but you should have seen the other guys. Plural. Thre were nine of them, and I know for a fact that two lost teeth and three more had a lot to explain to their mothers about all the blood on their shirts. Ha. Never start it, always finish it.

Here's the thing about the Iowa straw poll. It is looked upon as a test of the candidates organizaiton, and his/her ability to raise support. In years past, it was allowed to bus in supporters from far and wide. This time, the rules were changed so that Iowans only could vote in this straw poll. Good political strategists will tell you to look at who participates and why. Romney brought in more people by bus than his competition. He also spent more for that event than his competition. True or not, the MSM will say that he bought this win.



posted on Aug, 13 2007 @ 10:44 AM
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posted by Justin Oldham
Sad to say that we are at risk of becoming the very thing we are alleged to be fighting. On a side note, not only do I recall my father being poorly treated in a few cases after his return from Vietnam, but I sustained a rather serious school yard pummeling in 1978 as a result of such hostile attitude. I didn't win, but you should have seen the other guys. Plural. There were nine of them, and I know for a fact that two lost teeth and three more had a lot to explain to their mothers about all the blood on their shirts. Ha. Never start it, always finish it.

Here's the thing about the Iowa straw poll. It is looked upon as a test of the candidates organization, and his/her ability to raise support. In years past, it was allowed to bus in supporters from far and wide. This time, the rules were changed so that Iowans only could vote in this straw poll. Good political strategists will tell you to look at who participates and why. Romney brought in more people by bus than his competition. He also spent more for that event than his competition. True or not, the MSM will say that he bought this win.


On your aside, J/O, where did the 1978 anti-Vietnam soldiers event occur? It’s hard for me to imagine it happening in Alaska because of its smaller population density. Hard to find 9 people who hold the same view on any issue? (Tongue in cheek).

1978. We had just passed through the 2 years of Gerald Ford’s very much needed de-fusing or calming administration and were into Jimmy Carters only term. By way of history, the House Dems gained 49 seats in the 1874 election which gave them 291 to 144 for the GOP. The prior Congress had been 192 GOP to 242 Dem and 1 Independent. In the Senate, the Dems gained 5 seats to hold 60 seats plus 1 Independent leaving the GOP at 39 seats. This vote and large shift to Dems must have been the final straw in Nixon’s calculating mind over whether to fight it out or to resign.

I was working for a 6 man law office in downtown Louisville. I had just bought a one owner 4 year old Mercedes Benz 250C, a 2 door hardtop style I always loved. British Racing Green with tan Merctex (quality vinyl) interior. The car boasted my favorite engine, an overhead cam in-line six. I lived with my parents. All that to say my life was nondescript. And to add, that I have no memory of anybody abusing veterans of any war in that time frame in Kentucky or making the national news. Of course, it is also true I have never knowingly met a Mafia made-man either. Which is not proof they do not exist.

Not to let this debate on soldiers suffering abuse die of its own slowing momentum, I wonder out loud if any vet who did suffer abuse was also one of those who opted not to shave or comb his hair and to wear ragged clothing? In other words, were they - the victimized vets - protesting their own thing at the time of their abuse? My idea is that maybe they were abused for different reasons than their Vietnam service? See Foot Note.

In ‘03 after removing to FL, I met a ‘Good Ole Boy’ up in Georgia who came to be a good friend. I stay overnight at his house near Dahlonega, GA (along with my sister and his wife) 1-2 times a year, He and I were both USAF vets. Before I joined his inside group his wife told my sister he had claimed to have served in ‘Nam in 1966-1967. It turned out that he had been to Vietnam a few times hitching rides as an airplane mechanic on a C130 flying out of Clark AB, Philippines delivering cargo. Although my service in Korea began in 1953, I always point out up front to anyone that my service in Korea occurred AFTER the shooting stopped. This FYI only.

On Iowa’s straw poll. It must be that every college student in Chicago in 1936 tells the same story how the Democrats loaded them by the busload and drove around all day, voting in at least 2 dozen places in exchange for a cold box lunch and $5. Yes, the Dems carried Chicago by a landslide! I’ve heard that story many times. Perhaps this is the origin of the Iowa Straw Poll?


Foot Note: You have seen it here first in my earlier posts. I asserted Americans LOVE a good war. A good war is a war we win. Can you count the number of wars we have engaged in as a nation since 1776? Historically we usually begin the count with the declared war on the Barbary Coast, today’s Morocco, Algeria, Libya and Tunisia. 1801-1805. Following soon thereafter was the Second War For Independence as more accurately labeled by some or more popularly known as the "War of 1812." Made famous by Johnny Horton if not in high school text books. And future president Andrew Jackson’s late victory over the Red Coats at New Orleans. Who himself later ignored international borders and legal niceties, went to Pensacola when it was part of Spain and summarily hung 2 British agents for inciting Creek Indian attacks in south Georgia later to become the state of Alabama. The same Andrew Jackson who force marched the Cherokees to Oklahoma on the Trail of Tears. (Say hello early Bataan Death March).

Well, I can’t recite each battle in the Indian Campaign between 1876 and 1890. We killed nearly all of the fleeing band of starving Nez Perce trying to reach sanctuary in Canada. Wounded Knee. The last OFFICIAL batted of the Indian Wars. Who can ever forget the picture of the old Indian frozen in a fixed seated position? Chief Joseph. 300 Indians killed, 7 soldiers killed. Congress hated the Indians so much that it awarded 20 Congressional Medals of Honor to the surviving soldiers. MORE than any other battle in American history. Earlier Chief Joseph made his now famous declaration "Hear me, my chiefs, I am tired. My heart is sick and sad. From where the sun now stands, I will fight no more forever."

We have engaged in about 40 wars. Our country is 231 years old, so that means one war every 5 years, 9 months, on average. I have formed one solid conclusion after looking at those wars. Americans LOVE a war we are winning. We HATE a war we are losing. Win good, lose bad. The quality of war, the correctness or rightness of war is irrelevant. We measure war only by win or lose. And we are LOSING in Iraq.

[edit on 8/13/2007 by donwhite]



posted on Aug, 13 2007 @ 03:26 PM
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I understand hat hte Iowas staw poll has been going on for quite some time. I have tended to view it as a publicity stunt more than an actual barometer of grass roots sentiment. I was atually glad to see that participation was limited to Iowans this time around. It's nice to see that the bus companies can make a few bucks, but in my opinion romeny bought his win through the spending of lots more than his opponents. I was however, glad to see the Huckabee showing.

That 1978 incident took place in Seattle, Washignton. The exchange as limited to words, but it lasted for awhile and it caused quite a scene in the parking lot of the Tacoma mall. I, for my part, was engaged in battle while attending a junior high school off post. My father was singled out by his tormentors for Vietnam. My juvenile judges acted agaisnt me out of anti-military sentiment, and loose knowledge of what had happened in town. Once again, my report card read, "does not play well with others."



posted on Aug, 13 2007 @ 05:20 PM
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posted by Justin Oldham
I understand hat the Iowa straw poll has been going on for quite some time. I have tended to view it as a publicity stunt more than an actual barometer of grass roots sentiment. I was actually glad to see that participation was limited to Iowans this time around. It's nice to see that the bus companies can make a few bucks, but in my opinion Romney bought his win through the spending of lots more than his opponents. I was however, glad to see the Huckabee showing.

That 1978 incident took place in Seattle, Washington. The exchange as limited to words, but it lasted for awhile and it caused quite a scene in the parking lot of the Tacoma mall. I, for my part, was engaged in battle while attending a junior high school off post. My father was singled out by his tormentors for Vietnam. My juvenile judges acted against me out of anti-military sentiment, and loose knowledge of what had happened in town. Once again, my report card read, "does not play well with others."


OK, J/O, maybe “confession” does the heart good? Juvenile records are sealed (I’m sure) you know. You could have pled the 5th or just ignored me. Juvenile court judges have more arbitrary power than adult court judges. Add to that the power to exclude non-participants from court proceedings and you have very little public review. Finally, most wanna be judges do not wanna be juvenile court judges - recidivism rate all too high. Prosecutors resent being assigned to Juvenile Court. Public Defenders resent being assigned to Juvenile Court. And half the juveniles come in knowing how to “work” the system and the other half are fast learners.

You must have already posted that you were a child of a military person. An Army brat. I admire you and your parents that they were able to raise an outstanding and contributing citizen despite moving every 3-4 years. It must be hard to overcome. Congratulations to you!

[edit on 8/13/2007 by donwhite]



posted on Aug, 13 2007 @ 06:13 PM
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No actual juvy court for me. My 'peers' on the playground made up their own minds. Ha. I'm pleased to report that I have no criminal record. Kids can be cruel, and that's justw hat I had to suffer through. Aside from getting to see most of the U.S., being an army brat was worth a lot in terms of life experience.

I had spent much of my childhood in school on military bases. On base, the pecking order was pre-ordained by parental rank and life was actually pretty god. My exposure to life in schools off base got off to a racky start, but things did get better. So far as my father goes, I know of only the one instnace in which he was poorly treated by civilians. One ofthe reasons why he didn't come home very much during his three tours in Vietnam was to avoid the hate. According to him, life in post-Vietnam America has been pretty good.

I accepted my lot in life for what it was. I fought my share of bullies from grades K to 12, and have seen none since. It's amazing what a little maturuity will do for some peole's kids. I like who I am, and I look forward to what comes next. Bring it on.



posted on Aug, 13 2007 @ 07:00 PM
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Tommy Thompson dropped out yesterday:



wkbt.com...

The official announcement was made late Sunday evening, as former Wisconsin Governor Tommy Thompson is dropping out of the race for the Republican nomination for President. Thompson had said if he didn't finish first or second in the Iowa straw poll that he would drop out of the race. After Saturday's sixth place finish it became clear the race was over. NewsChannel Eight's Bart Winkler sat down with Tommy's brother Ed Thompson on Sunday, and says yesterdays results are disappointing, but don't come as a total surprise.

"We were kinda pulling for Tommy, but he's not nationally known," says supporter Allen Koput. "When forced with the opposition he's up against, there's just no contest," says La Crosse resident John Schalow. It's not hard to find Tommy Thompson supporters in Wisconsin. However, most of them, including his brother Ed, knew his bid to become President would be difficult. "I kind of a feeling, when he ran for governor there was electricity in the air, you just knew he was gonna win. It just didn't have that this time," Ed says.



Please visit the link provided for the complete story.



posted on Aug, 13 2007 @ 07:48 PM
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Well it looks like Tommy was looking for a way to bow out of the race gracefully and the Iowa straw poll was his way out. Any poll that doesn't include all the candidates and its numbers may be artificially inflated is not a reliable measure of public opinion. Unless something unexpected happens I expect that McCain will be the next Republican candidate to bow out gracefully.

Justin please forgive Don and I discussing the various sub topics that come up.

[edit on 13-8-2007 by xpert11]



posted on Aug, 14 2007 @ 12:41 AM
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There's nothing wrong at all in talking about those sub topics. I like to think of it as part of the normal socialization process that goes on over text boards like ATS. It;s the same sort of easy-going chat that would happen if we arere all in the same room.

The RNC meets in late September, and that's when I expect to see Brownback and others bow out so that the GOP field can 'solidify.' I sense a disturbance in the force. The hand of Newt has moved yet again. The GOP field will narrow to just four after September. I'm sensing a change in tactics that will be radical, and yet oh-so longical when it happens.

The implications of a four man race as we go in to the primaries would be significant. We might even see a real house cleaning in October that couldresult in just TWO Repubicans seeking the Presidency. Why? They could more effectively use their national war chest. Please recall tha the GOP is light on funds this time, so they need ot be more than a bit frugal and a lot more efficient.



posted on Aug, 14 2007 @ 06:02 AM
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posted by Justin Oldham
The RNC meets in late September, and that's when I expect to see Brownback and others bow out so that the GOP field can 'solidify.' I sense a disturbance in the force. The hand of Newt has moved yet again. The GOP field will narrow to just four after September. I'm sensing a change in tactics that will be radical, and yet oh-so logical when it happens.

The implications of a four man race as we go in to the primaries would be significant. We might even see a real house cleaning in October that could result in just TWO Republicans seeking the Presidency. Why? They could more effectively use their national war chest. Please recall that the GOP is light on funds this time, so they need to be more than a bit frugal and a lot more efficient.


Very good points J/O and insightful, too. I suppose if we dropped to 4, they would be Giuliani, Romney, Fred Thompson and .. And .. And Help me please, with #4.

I’m still not sure Fred T. will do it! He has failed to raise any impressive sums of money - if he had, he’d be shouting it from the rooftops! Everybody says McCain is waiting for the opportune moment to withdraw. Maybe Bush43 will appoint McCain our next ambassador to Iran? More likely it would be to P’yongyang!

IF the GOP’s RNC with a “consult” from GHW Bush and Newt, decided to go with TWO candidates only, then it would have to be Rudy and Mit. NOTE: Mit just admitted to a net worth of about one-quarter billion dollars. Not up to Mike Bloomberg’s whole billion two, but still enough to run on his own if he wants. I think Ross Perot spent $18 m. of his own money in 1992.

I’d think the RNC would be reluctant to go to TWO candidates. Too blatantly anti democratic with a small “d.” Four OTOH makes good sense. I’m assuming that either Huckabee or Brownback would be #4. Because of the recent (since 1976) favorable voter reception for governors versus senators, I’d bet on Huckabee.

[edit on 8/14/2007 by donwhite]



posted on Aug, 14 2007 @ 06:04 AM
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Originally posted by Justin Oldham
There's nothing wrong at all in talking about those sub topics.


This thread does have a coffee lounge feel to it.


The RNC meets in late September, and that's when I expect to see Brownback and others bow out so that the GOP field can 'solidify.' I sense a disturbance in the force. The hand of Newt has moved yet again.


Your just making two much sense for me to disagree with you. If the Republican party must have Newt on the selectors panel it would be if his role was unofficial and out of the public eye that way the party could make use of the bright side of his character and quietly put some of his wackier ideas to one side. Just like the coach and selectors of a sporting team would do the Republican party will look to axe the players who only took to the paddock for the benefit of gaining experience.

In a way Newt is like a Athlete who has been retired for a while and is thinking about making a come back. Once the lesser almost no name candidates drop out of the race it will be easier for the Republican party to pool its resources and plan a strategy that they will take into the 08 election.



posted on Aug, 14 2007 @ 02:14 PM
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Originally posted by donwhite
Very good points J/O and insightful, too. I suppose if we dropped to 4, they would be Giuliani, Romney, Fred Thompson and .. And .. And Help me please, with #4.


Giuliani, Romney, Ton Tancredo, and Ron Paul.

This would cover all bases i think, and give a good selection of canidates, Sam Brownback or Mike Huckabee could also make it if Ron Paul falls apart or Giuliani goes through another divorce.:lol
But seroius that would be bad PR for Guliani and think of his past divorces also, think about when the slander starts flying, think of the stores those x-wifes have, thats some big ammmo.



posted on Aug, 14 2007 @ 06:22 PM
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This may not be the most heavy flagged threda on ATS, but it certainly has lived a while. Somebody may want t oint this one out to Dave and Johnny for the ATS Mix. They ARE looking for participants in long lived threads.

The deliberate drop to four candidates makes a great deal of fiscal sense for the Republicans. If my theory holds, and they know they're going to lose, I'd expect the top party bosses to make a big push to minimize the damage. I'd love to be wrong about this. I'd have no trouble at all making my apologies.

TKainZero might be on to something with that list of choices. If I were on the payroll to advise Fred Thompson, I would suggest to him that he come out of hidiing in early October. Spend a million dollars a month right up to the primaries. Get on a bus and go go go on a whistle stop tour of the country. Wave the bloody shirt, invoke the ghost of Reagan, and preach reform like his life depends on it.



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