We (I speak specifically to my American friends) have all seen how Bush has been urging Russian caution in the issue of Chechnya. At the same time, we are watching the EU become more pro-Islamic (probably due to rising Muslim populations in Europe), and seeing the Arab world become more and more anti-American.

At this point our list of allies is thin indeed. The list of sane nations (by which I mean nations who wish to stop Islamic theocracy and promote human rights through the democratic-republic government system) has dwindled to: The United States, Great Britain, Australia, Japan, Italy, Israel and Russia.

Of these, Italy's population is dwindling and her military force is miniscule.

Japan is a fantastic economic ally, but has little military power.

Israel is (I hate to say) ready to fall to the Arabs. Twenty years from now, Palestinians in occupied territories will outnumber Israelis, they will demand the right to vote, and they will topple the Israeli government from within.

In other words, in twenty years, the United States will stand alone with Britain, Australia, and Japan against a largely hostile and largely Islamic world. However, we have a potential ally in Russia, whose interests are daily becoming our own, and vice-versa.

My question, then, is this: Why does Bush insist on continuing with his father's (and Clinton's) Cold-War philosophy and work against Russian interests. She could make a valuable ally, but the current administration's continual lack of foresight is preventing us from forging an alliance. Why?

I can't tell you. I have the same opinion like you on this matter. I hope someone will have a good answer.

Well..your wrong..and who cares we if the world is becoming Muslim?? Is it not a religion..do we not have freedom of religion??..i mean why do we as americans think all the freedoms only imply to us??

I think Bush in his last statement said he has 90 allies behind him...so he thinks hes all tough basically..i mean trying to start stuff with the rest of the world wont make him a more liked man..it will just make people hate OUR SO CALLED represenative and especially hate us.

Educated Muslims know That it isnt us the people of the US that has fuked them..they know it is our govt...so the ones that have gone to school..go to college blame only our government and i think they very well have the right to since our foreign policy sucks !!!

Like i have said before..BUSHS claim that he 90 allies is bull...no one supports him..YOU mentioned Great Britain, Australia, Japan, Italy, Israel and Russia..these 6 countires. I dont really think Great Britain can be counted since it is only their governmetn that supports us not the poeple...if you travel there and ask the people..the college students..the adults of the country this question..they would also say they hate Bush due to our foreign policy..etc..

Japan is our lil doggie
Israel..is a conspiracy....its the one that has started all of this with a few special interests
Italy ..is the same way as great Britain.
AND RUSSIA..LOL...have you forgotten about the REDS?? LOL...do you really think that our govt is okay with red allies?? Look..russia has more muslims living there than us...they had no problems until after sept 11...OKAY..i feel something asunder dont you??
I think bush and his lackeys know russia is the only hope they got.
Because the plan that they are running on requires the most intelligent people on the planet..and they HAVE THAT!...

MY POINT: this is all a conspiracy..a very dirty cruel world it is...everyone thirsts for power. The Superpower (us) once retaining its power over all wants more and wants to always be on top..guys..this is why they are planning to TAKE OVER THE WORLD>...!??!!

OrionSirius

If things are as you say, then we must fight the great evil of Islam with the lesser evil of capitalist goals.

I'm not going to argue about Islam's evil. Look up some stuff on what's going on in Denmark, or how peaceful those French muslims are. Very peaceful indeed (chuckles). The muslims have screwed the EU with their great PR campaign, and I would rather stand with capitalist interests than under a muslim theocracy.

I'm bi. If the muslims rule, than MY freedoms are suppressed. Screw them. If they want to suppress my freedom, then I'm going to suppress theirs first.

Congratulations!!??!!! ~iluv2act~ has completed the government agenda..to brainwash as many citizens as possible, to instill HATE in as many people as possible...will this never end?? Muslims are not bad people..christians are not bad people..atheists are not even bad people....A few are bad and MAny are good..i am a firm believer in the Human race is mostly good. The end is coming but not now..we are still alive, and we should make the most of it besides hating each other, and arguing when the world is comming to an end..think about it man. I know many muslim people..i even know extrememly religious muslims (but they are not extrememists..that is diff) T\AND guess what?? they are peacful people...maybe for your education you should go out and make a muslim friend..!! come on theres alot in the US!!
The true way you learn about people is by talking to them not by believing in the propaganda about them or by believing in what other people say about them..come on we arnt in high school anymore..are we??

OrionSirius

There is no brainwashing here. Look throughout the world and you'll see how bad it is to be a neighbor of an Islamic state, or to be a non-Islamic in an Islamic state. You aren't looking at the world realistically, and you aren't taking into account that, yes, we ahev religious freedoms in this country, but it is not the Islamic states' way to foster religious freedom. It is their divine mandate to spread Islam and subdue other religions, wither by conversion or conquer.

Israel is a conspiracy? That makes little sense to me. Israel is a democratic state, and a home to a race of people who have caught Hell from the rest of the worldfor centuries. There is no evidence, unless you count wild conspiracy theories as evidence, that Israel has any designs whatsoever on Empire-building or anything of the sort. Heck, they cannot even occupy al lthe land entitled them during the first half of the last century without history revisionists calling them all sorts of names and demanding they roll over and let the Arabs urinate on them.

I'm certainly not in high school anymore. I've lived in the real world for quite some time, and I know wants, wishes and idealism rarely coincides with reality.

Got an idea, instead of making a friend in the states that is Muslim, why don't you convert to Christianity and then move to Iraq or Iran, or even Saudi Arabia and practice your religion. Try and be a citizen. You'll find the peace-loving people want peace on their terms. Peace is only the mere restraint of hostilities. Oppression brings peace, and I'm not in favor of that kind of peace.

Do you have any better target to make war?

If I understand you right, Kronos, I think yes. Syria, for example is deeper into supporting terrorism. But that would be a political quagmire and would cause the entire middle-east to turn against us.

Kind of cowardly and hipocritical to skip the tough jobs, don't you think?

just want to give my opinion of the original post.

Originally posted by ~iluv2act~:

"We (I speak specifically to my American friends) have all seen how Bush has been urging Russian caution in the issue of Chechnya."

i think many of us europeans have as well. the british media is obsessed with local troubles at the moment, but we still see the wider picture.

"At the same time, we are watching the EU become more pro-Islamic (probably due to rising Muslim populations in Europe),"

define "pro-Islamic".

define in what way, and with supporting evidence, the EU is becoming pro-islamic.

the EU is about creating military, political and economic stability in europe, and promoting freedom and human rights. that to my mind is not "pro-islamic" but, i suppose you could say, "pro-choice".

"and seeing the Arab world become more and more anti-American."

no wonder. the US is continueing to provide bias support in term of money, aid and most of all military equipment to israel. what the hell do you expect?

"The list of sane nations (by which I mean nations who wish to stop Islamic theocracy and promote human rights through the democratic-republic government system)"

ha! you call that sane?!? you're exhibiting classic signs of paranoia. i'm not expert of psychology (Lupe! get over here ...) its notions like yours that indicate a lack of sanity.

as for the "democratic-republic government system" of the US, its terrible. only two major parties. elections based largely on who has the most money. if you want a good electorial system look to germany. we gave them a system after WWII and its better than anything britain or the US have.

"... has dwindled to: The United States, Great Britain, Australia, Japan, Italy, Israel and Russia."

well, in referring once again to democratic-republican government you can scrap the UK from that list. we're still a monarchy after all ...

"Israel is (I hate to say) ready to fall to the Arabs. Twenty years from now, Palestinians in occupied territories will outnumber Israelis, they will demand the right to vote, and they will topple the Israeli government from within."

hmmm ... an interesting assessment and prediction. we shall have to see. may i ask, if this prediction comes true, and palestinians out-number israelis, do you support their bid to vote?

"In other words, in twenty years, the United States will stand alone with Britain, Australia, and Japan against a largely hostile and largely Islamic world."

rubbish. you will stand as a country, as all countries always have, in a world of cultural diversity. there's no massive change being wrought upon the world. things are as they always have been.

"However, we have a potential ally in Russia, whose interests are daily becoming our own, and vice-versa."

you mean they want to take over other countries as well ...

"My question, then, is this: Why does Bush insist on continuing with his father's (and Clinton's) Cold-War philosophy and work against Russian interests."

now this is an interesting point. why does bush not support the war in chechnya? it seems to fit right in with his "they're terrorists, kill the bastards!" philosophy. or is it possible that someone in the bush administration can see the difference between a terrorist and someone seeking independence?

"She could make a valuable ally, but the current administration's continual lack of foresight is preventing us from forging an alliance. Why?"

you seem to make this the foremost concern of the US. why should it be? whatever happened to what's ~right~?

- qo.

Q-O, it's ok that we show bias toward Israel. The rest of the world seems to be totally apathetic to her situation.

Originally posted by Thomas Crowne
Q-O, it's ok that we show bias toward Israel. The rest of the world seems to be totally apathetic to her situation.

Wh ydo you say the U.S. has a common interest of wanting to take over other countries. That is utterly insane. Did it ever occur to you that if we wanted to do that, we could have done it a long time ago?
A nation defends itself and myopic people liken it to taking over the world.
What are we going to do? Make Iraq a 51st state? Maybe declare it a slave state? I know, we'll just refer to it as the "extra storage space which also keeps our extra oil" - that'd be a good name for it.

Originally posted by Thomas Crowne:

"Q-O, it's ok that we show bias toward Israel. The rest of the world seems to be totally apathetic to her situation."

i think that's unfair. many countries, particularly those that are involved in the international community with, say, the UN, want to see the arab/israeli conflict resolved. if i may point out a historical aspect, it was us british that set up israel in the first place, under a UN mandate. so you can't say we're apathetic.

however, you also can't argue that the US arming one side of the conflict to a state massively above the other, is taking something a biased stance.

- qo.

I apologize, Q-O, I did misspeak and lumped the rest of the world in one bag. That was wrong.

I do say that there is more than enough support for the Arab world, especially from the clearly anti-Israeli U.N. to warrant the strong support of Israel by a couple friends.
Notice, also, that the Jews have only a fraction of the land that they were originally given, and the now disputed "territories" are areas that were taken by force by their neighbors. Their neighbors also openly state among themselves that the total destruction of the Jewish state is their long term goal. Israel cannot survive in such conditions without a strong friend or two even if the U.N. was only apathetic instead of anti Israeli.
BTW, by defending them as it appears that I am doing, that does not mean that I see Israel as always right or without stumble. I certainly don't even see my own government in such light and I'm certainly not going to give another such a carte blanche (pardon my french).


[Edited on 15-11-2002 by Thomas Crowne]

I think this is a perfect example of lateral view. quiet one most certainly is not from the US. But ~iluv2act~ , TC, by their views i assert are from the US. My evidence would be blind pro-israel attitude. Like I have said as Quiet One stated "you can scrape Great Britain from the List" because it is the govt that supports US for whats it doing not the poeple of Britain. I think some months ago...the people their were actually critizing Blair for being too involved with the US and not their own country.

Israel suffered for many years?? What BULL is that?? what about toher people who are dying everyday in Palestine..you dont see that on CNN do you? But everytime a Jewish guy dies..OH its suddenly a sin and makes the news??
That is just pure propaganda!

Pro-Islamic ..EU?? Well i see Muslims getting critized everywhere they go.

You SAID: "Got an idea, instead of making a friend in the states that is Muslim, why don't you convert to Christianity and then move to Iraq or Iran, or even Saudi Arabia and practice your religion. Try and be a citizen. "

Im sorry TC i dont think youhave ever been outside of the US, and if you have how long?? have you ever really "lived" in another country>>?? Perhaps..a third world country..or have you reached that biased conclusion listening to your parents and friends who havent gone anywhere either..but herd from "someone" too>??

I lived in saudia Arabia, and lemme tell yah ,..the people their are conservative, but it is a very rich country. When they see a "white" person of coloR they tend to be very helpful, and JOBS there?? IF you are white, and they have no space for you they will actually lay off a person to keep you inthere staff!! They prefer americans to other people of nationalties that come there to work such as pakistanis, iranians, kuwaitis..etc..and sometimes even over their own people!!

I dont know where the hell some people get there info from but what goes around come around right??

The best way to research about this stuff is to actually go there..not believe in people who say they have "lived" there and take bull.

OrionSirius

Christ almighty, what a load of BS.

I have a friend who used to live in the Sudan. The Muslims oppressed his people (Christians), stole their crops, and took children as slaves. Yes, the peaceful, tolerant Muslim government did this, with the backing of most of the population, and they will not allow non-Muslims to emigrate.

My friend's father carried him out of the country on his back when he was just a little baby, and was shot at by a border guard. His wife was killed during their escape. I know this guy, and I know his son, so don't start telling me about how peaceful and compassionate Muslims are.

I was in Bosnia during the war. I saw what the Muslim Serbs did to a resort full of civilians. They firebombed it during the night, yet this received no attention in the West. I saw the houses of Christian and otherwise non-Islamic peasants, burned to the ground as part of the scorched earth policy of these wonderful, peaceful, tolerant Muslims. Many were mortared in the night, while families with innocent children slept inside.

That's how peaceful and tolerant Muslims are, and I get frightened when I see them in public. I am very scared when I see a Muslim man in an amusement park, and when I see Muslim children, poor innocent children being corrupted by a religion that propogates violence and death.

Don't tell me how wonderful Muslims are. They might be OK when they're in the minority, but as soon as they have the opportunity, they will oppress and destroy those who will not serve their God.

Escuse me? Are you an 11 yr old child that you are "frightened" by other human beings? LOL

What a crock of Bull.
what you have just stated has not only offended me but probably all Muslims around the world.

What a biased opinion you have man!
I mean i can not do anything about it except feel sorry for you and hearing such a terrible story when you were a kid might have instilled the fear in you teill even now. I feel pity for those who do not realize what it is to love. To see te brighter side of things..i mean i have had some bad things happen to me ..iv been negative, but than aftewards i laugh at the negativity that had overtaken me at that particular time.

The story i just told you is true becasue i lived there...if you do not CHOOSE to believe in it...thats fine. I, on the other hand, do beleive in your story ..but guess what ...we DONT LIVE IN A UTOPIA!! get over it..not all people are alike. There are good and bad people everywhere just like there is evil and good everywhere!!
You can not blame a group of people for what some people did.

You cant hate all white people because of the KU KLUX KLAN, you cant hate all black people for the violence and crime, you cant hate all the germans becasue of hitler and the nazis, you cant hate muslims because of terrorists. Many groups and nationalties commit crimes and violence and many are racist just like many gruoups and nationalities are terrorists.

These groups have ONE thing in common tho, they go to EXTREME MEASURES to get what they want, and in the amist of all this we have liars. Which we use a fancy word as conspiracy for.

I am tired of all the hate and im tired of the negativity. I am tired of all the stereotypes and im tired of all the Politicians who have the guts to stand up, in our face, and lie when they know exactly whats going on!

Im tired of just being the "common man" that any govt can take advantage of. No govt cares for US...NOONE!

OrionSirius

Naw, man, I'm just a 39 year old guy that was in Uncle Sugar's Army for a few years. I've never seen the outside of my own home town (sarcasm, if you didn't catch it).

BTW, once again you can go to the foxnews.com and see what the people following the religion of peeeaace have done to 11 more Israelis.

You want to know why it is happening to the "Palestinians", all their suffering? Learn the history. The real history, not the Arafat-spun lies.

While you're at it, learn about the wars and violence that is going on in the world nowadays. Check out the percentage Islamic followers play in it. Read how wonderful it is to be a neighbor, especially a weaker neighbor of an Islamic state.

I'm sorry, but your rantings that Islam is hated for no good reason and it is a misunderstood religion just doesn't hold up to the truth.

Neither does saying that the government or the media of the U.S. is trying to make Islam a villian. On the contrary, they are doing their best to hide the real truth.

Gee, with the fortune Arafat is sitting on, as much international money and attention the "Palestinians" have gotten, and the children are still suffering? They are also still being taught the worst blind hatred I've heard of. The Israelis can't even comprehend the hatred taught against them, but as you can see from the news again today, they can feel it in the form of bullets.

Bush has been urging Russian caution in the issue of Chechnya.

Do u know that Russian troops have been torturing Chechen civilians for information? Do u know that Russian troops have been raping Chechen women? even (reportedly) dead ones.

No, I don't think you did...

EU become more pro-Islamic (probably due to rising Muslim populations in Europe), and seeing the Arab world become more and more anti-American.

For such a generalised statement as this, where is your evidence to prove it? Ohh... that's right there is none. Silly me.

Israel is (I hate to say) ready to fall to the Arabs. Twenty years from now, Palestinians in occupied territories will outnumber Israelis, they will demand the right to vote, and they will topple the Israeli government from within.

Did u know that Israel is breaking international law by occupying Palestinian land. These settlements are subsidised by the Israeli government, which makes the government criminal. Criminal actions are hardly the actions of somrthing described as sane.

Some of your statemnets are ignorant at best, so I would appreciate some references to back them up. If that's not too much to ask.


[Edited on 18-11-2002 by Fantastic_Damage]

Since all you guys can do is hate each other...i really dont know what to say. I think whatever i say you will still say the same thing..!!

I wish one day we can live in peace, but like God says that can only be achieved in Heaven !

BTW, as a Muslim, i can say Islam really IS a religion of peace <>
God Bless
OrionSirius.

Since all you guys can do is hate each other...i really dont know what to say. I think whatever i say you will still say the same thing..!!

I wish one day we can live in peace, but like God says that can only be achieved in Heaven !

BTW, as a Muslim, i can say Islam really IS a religion of peace <>
God Bless
OrionSirius.

Also let it be known, I have studied Islam to the core ...well it is my religion. I have also studied christianity, Catholism, Judaism, and Hinduism. And i have studied ancient civilizations. So when i speak i dont mean to speak wrongly, i merely want to write something that can help all of you.

Thanks.
Sorry for posting twice
OrionSirius