EMP survival

Originally posted by mrwupy

If your electronics are not turned on at the time, they will be safe. If they are on, their toast.

[edit on 22-12-2006 by mrwupy]

From my understanding your correct, the problem is however that most electronics dont actually shut off when you turn them off. Like most desktop computers there is no real physical off switch, the computer even though off is still on and drawing a small amount of power and you really only have to fry a few minor components to kill the whole system. The same goes with most electronics. Also if do have a device unplugged, if the emp is strong enough, you could get arking across switches or plugs that could fry your stuff. I personally am unaware of the strength of EMP that a nuke gives off or whether or how far it could charge an ark but it is possible.


The best thing you could do is take your vital devices, radio and/or geiger counter, and remove all batteries. Then store the device in a low static cool evironment. Surround with a grounded metal cabnit if possible.

what about the body and the air, any suggestions?

EMP, as stated before, probably will not effect either. However, off topic for a sec, potassium iodide tablets will fill your thyroid so that radioactive iodide cannot get into it. Sheltering in place is good IF you can put alot of density (dirt/concrete) between you and the outside world. Radioactivity will fall off rapidly in most circumstances.

ps Cobalt Nukes render most options useless

Originally posted by mrwupy
I read the above mentioned article because something was bugging me. I found this in it.

Protecting electrical equipment is simple if it can be unplugged from AC outlets, phone systems, or long antennas.

True to a point. If you are close enough to the origin of the pulse and the pulse is strong enough it is going to charge the item in question and fry it. EMP traveles thru air as well as power lines

If your electronics are not turned on at the time, they will be safe. If they are on, their toast.

See above

I admit my knowledge on the subject is limited, thats why i'm here, I want to learn.

I cant baleave how much ive learned in just the short time The ATS survival forums has been operating. I thought I had a good handle on it before but now ive added to my knowledge bank ten fold.

Best way to imagine what an EMP will do to anything capable of receiving the radiation: put metal in a microwave. In a nuclear EMP, uwave discharge is exactly what is happening.

I worry about non nuclear EMP more then nuclear. It doesnt take rocket science to create an non nuclear EMP bomb. Something say the size of a lear jet if detonated at the right height could black out several states.
Not sure qich site I saw this on I'll have to see if I can find it again. They were saying that if there was three 747 with non nuclear EMP bombs built into the interior detonated over the east coast west coast and middle america at the same time it would black out all the US alot of canada and alot of mexico.
Lets face it nuclear bombs are hard to get ahold of but convential explosives and wire and batteries are easy. I think if were ever hit with EMP it would be from a non nuclear source.

Other than nuclear really the only other kind is massive EM field collapse... you generate a very large intense electromagnetic field to produce the desired discharge caused by current induced when the field collapses around conductors. No explosion.

[edit on 23-12-2006 by apc]

You dont need electronics to survive. Ha Ha
EMP will destroy diodes. Maybe encase your electronics in a grounded steel box?

Sorry APC but there is such a thing as the non nuclear EMP bomb
www.milnet.com...
science.howstuffworks.com...

And we did infact use Non nuclear EMP bombs in Iraq. It is a very real threat.

Ah thanks I was unaware of that line of development. However it uses the same concept I just described.

A one time explosive device provides kinetic energy required to rapidly build an electromagnetic field through electromagnetic induction rather than through the nuclear chemistry found in a nuclear explosion.

Tesla showed us that while the creation and expansion of electromagnetic fields is neat and all, what happens when they collapse is the most interesting.

Apc Its pretty scary don't you think? Ime sure you will dig into it more. When you do Ime guessing that you will see what I see. that this is a much bigger threat then biological or chemical. A few briefcase size bombs exploded in certain important areas could devastate this country's financial, military, and power generating infrastructure. That to most Americans is the real terrorist threat.

If you want to safekeep anything stored electronically, on flash drives or whatever, or any electronics in general, you can take the risky parts out of a mircrowave (ie the parts that actually emit microwaves), and store whatever inside of the microwave, wrapped in tin foil. Even better if buried underground, or if the microwave itself is insulated in general.

Microwave ovens are built so that the microwaves inside have a hard time escaping, so I'm guessing whatever material is used, also gives EMP's a hard time getting in.

Minor changes in design, incorrect maintenance procedures, poorly fitting parts, loose debris, moisture, and ordinary dirt can all cause elaborate EMP protections to be totally circumvented. It can be expected that a single high yield, high altitude explosion over an industrialized area would cause massive disruption for an indeterminable period, and would cause huge economic damages (all those damaged chips add up).

nuclearweaponarchive.org...

My research led me to this website which sums up the different scenarios. To be brief, several factors would determine the outcome and the degree of damage. I found this most informative, but, disturbing.

reply to post by grimreaper797


How can I build a faraday cage for me to sit in?

Or one for my electricals

A faraday cage does not need a ground strap. The ground strap is for the safety of the people outside the cage, not for things in the cage. A cage can obtain a significant potential above ground due to static electricity buildup and the like. Someone that walks up to it and touches it, may get a rude awakening.

Electrical objects in a cage do not need full isolation from the cage. If the cage is a full solid cage, then the EMF running though the cage matches the voltage across any part of the cage. The contact potential between any metal object inside the cage and the side of the cage will always be zero volts. If the cage has 100v induced in it from an outside field, then the metal conductor running from one side of the cage to the other side also has exactly 100volts across it. Zero volts difference in contact potential at both ends, means, no current will flow.

That is what they mean by “RF current flows on the outside of a conductor". When you induce voltage across the conductor, the inside of that conductor is in a uniform voltage field that is generated by the metal around it. Lack of contact potential with anything, means that no current flow can be generated, so the center of the wire can not actively partake in any current flow that the wire is delivering. The outside of the conductor forms a faraday cage for the center of the wire at high enough frequencies. No current, no damage.

Anything with a solid metal cage with no penetrations, will be shielded.

Anything in a metal cage with penetrations that tolerate an EMP threat level, are going to be fine.

Anything in a solid metal cage where all wires leading to it are fully shielded, will be fine.

If you have components, or penetrations that can not tolerate an EMP. Most likely, the only parts that will be damaged, will be the parts directly connected to the wires coming in.

A computer in a tight fitting case, with nothing plugged into it, is 100% EMP resistant. No computer in that situation will be bothered.

A computer in a solid case that has shielded peripheral cables, power cable, and an Ethernet connection/phone connection. The only things that could possibly be damaged is the power supply, Ethernet card/telephone card, and monitor.

The peripherals that may be damaged are the keyboard. The spike from the keyboard may be able to travel to the computer. If you have a wireless keyboard and mouse, that will protect the computer from any threats from it’s peripherals.

A plug in Ethernet controller that can easily be changed would be able to restore that functionality. A wireless network would avoid that problem all together.

A replacement power supply will bring back computer function if the one in the computer is damaged.

Some modems have a gas surge arrestor. Some have thyristors. They won’t be damaged from anything except a direct lighting strike. You can keep a spare modem if you want to.

Some old monitors have full metal shielding, Those won’t be bothered. Some LCD’s have full metal shell around the active components. Those most likely won’t be bothered.

The easiest insurance is to keep everything intact on your old computer and just put it in a closet, with nothing plugged in. After an EMP or what ever, all you have to do is pull it out and plug it in, and you are good to go. That old stack of computers in the closet may be a gift after an EMP.

The same thing goes for all other electronics. If it has a solid metal case, then it’s internals won’t be bothered. If that metal case has penetrations (antenna, power) then the things that will be bothered are the stuff directly connected to those penetrations. Small portable radios are pretty resistant if they don’t have their antenna deployed. If you have a radio reciver and know how to change the first RF preamp then it may be a good idea to keep a replacement MOSFET to replace the one in the radio. That is the most likely thing to be damaged. Power supply diodes and regulators are another thing to stock. They could be damaged by spikes coming in from the power line.


You don’t even need a solid metal cage. A metal plate will reflect any RF wave that has a wavelength that is significantly smaller than its length. It will create an un-illuminated(by the RF field) area behind it. The only wavelengths that can pass through are ones that are long as/longer than the plate’s size.

Any wavelength that is significantly longer than an object will not induce a (appreciable) voltage in an object.

So, if the threat is coming from directly overhead. A metal roof will provide a safe zone for small electronic devices directly underneath it. If you are in a concrete building with reinforcing mesh in the concrete, the mesh will provide shielding (attenuation) from the full force of the EMP wave.

A metal storage building with a metal roof and sides, will provide protection from all sides, except the bottom. No grounding required. If the EMP threat is coming from below the building, then EMP is the last of your worries.


[edit on 5-9-2010 by Mr Tranny]

To demonstrate how overblown EMP is, look at these papers.

www.adv-radio-sci.net...
homepage.alice.de...

Yes, people, they are testing the motherboard out in the open. Who runs their computer without a case? Without any shielding at all?

Breakdown threshold is from 1.7kvm to 21.6kvm.
Note: Breakdown threshold is where an software error occurs. No irrevocable hardware damage. Just a software crash. In a totally unshielded machine.

Destruction threshold. 37.2kvm and 55.7kvm. That is totally unshielded, out in the open.

How much is the maximum EMP level again? 50kvm. That means a 486 motherboard may not be damaged even if it is setting out in the open!!!!!!!!!!!!!

If it is in a case, don't worry about it!!!!

Look at the destruction levels for normal PC components out in the open.
Yes, those figures are running from 800 to 1000 KVM!!!!!!!
From 16 to 20 TIMES the maximum EMP that could be generated by a high altitude detonation.

So, is safe to say that if you have a CPU, or memory stick, or network card, or even a cell phone lying out in the open, it is not going to be bugged one bit.

homepage.alice.de...


What electronic system is deigned with long open leads out in the free air? About the closest thing that would come to that is old CRT TV’s with wooden cases with various circuit boards placed around the cabinet with long unshielded wires. Most LCD TV’s don’t use anything close to that style of construction.

reply to post by Mr Tranny


Theoretically, how might a person protect themself or electrical equipment against 500,000kvm?

I am no electronics expert, but wouldn't throwing your cellphone (for instance) on top of the glass turn table of the microwave before shutting the door and unplugging the whole unit provide decent protection from an EMP burst?

[EDIT] I just noticed that someone earlier in the thread mentioned this. The only possible problem with this is the fact that microwave ovens are designed to shield against high frequency microwaves and may not provide as good protection from lower or higher frequency pulses. That being said, I always assumed EMP bursts would generate primarily microwave frequencies. Does anyone know for sure?

[edit on 9/5/2010 by clay2 baraka]

Originally posted by rajaten
reply to post by Mr Tranny

 

Theoretically, how might a person protect themself or electrical equipment against 500,000kvm?

Um…….. It’s not even theoretically possible to create such a voltage gradient in air.

The arc over gradient is somewhere around 3000kvm for air. The air would short it’s self out any higher than that.

The saturation point of the upper atmosphere is a little above 50kvm.
That is why the maximum threat level from a sky burst EMP is listed at 50kvm.

You could theroreticly be close enough to a ground burst to get over 1000kvm. But I don’t think you would be worrying about an EMP at that time…… Well….. the couple thousandth of a second until you are vaporized…….. by the blast

..............................
On the microwave front. A cell phone is too small to be bothered by the longer wavelengths that can make it through the RF seals on the microwave door. Yes, the door doesn’t effectively block RF at lower frequencies, but those frequencies are too low to be a danger to small electronics.

An EMP is what is classified as a broad band pulse. It is made up of frequency components ranging from the Ghz (which can directly hurt integrated equipment) to the low Hz range (That can induce voltages on long lines).

[edit on 5-9-2010 by Mr Tranny]

Forget about the gadgets and gizmos. Learn to live without the need of electronic devices.

It sounds like everyones energy is focused towards saving their electronics. While all of you are freaking out about your electronics after some event you will hopefully soon realize that you have wasted your time.

Survival should be your concern. While you were panicking about the loss of your laptop others were bettering their situation.

Dont waste time trying to figure out how to save your car in the event of a major EMP. Work on raising up a horse and teaching it to be ok with a saddle and people riding it.

Forget about GPS, learn to read a map. Learn to be ok with not having a cell phone, your reality now exists within the constraints of a small bubble that surrounds you.

Your precious gadgets will not save you for very long anyways. Learn the principles of mechanics, physics, Mathematics and biology.Then, drop the books and learn the street smarts.

In other words, learn how to apply what you have learned in books. Go out and experience similar situations.

Put yourself in the middle of the woods for two weeks at Iron Age. After that try 3 months and then after that integrate stone age techniques.

Learn to be fascinated with and in love with the act of observing nature in its every form. Learn animals and plants and geological formations and all of it.

Really though, because we are societies of procrastinators and spectators, most of us will end up dying very quickly and we therefore will have nothing to worry about.....Move Along

I think those are two very good questions, OP. And oddly enough I was thinking about that just hours ago. It came across my mind because I have a compass "app" on my phone. I started to think about it and realized that most siuations in which I would need this compass that most likely my phone would not work. If an EMP attack would occur my phone would not work at all. In a survival situation I would have no way to charge it. So I came to the conclusion- "Oh well". I think there will be other things far worthier of my attention than my electronic gadgets. So that's my plan and I'm sticking to it.


ETA: Brahmanite- many valid points you make there! Love it

[edit on 9/6/2010 by sindeestarr]