Will there be a draft in the USA?

Bush spoke of "painful sacrifices" and many are speaking of putting more troops in Iraq. It does not take a great leap of imagination to see that Bush is hinting at a draft.

I know a lot people here may say that this is impossible because it is so politcally unpopular. You can look at this from two perspectives. One is that the majority of politicians from both parties in Washington feel the US is under the obligation to abide by "China shop rules" i.e. we broke Iraq and now we have to pay for it. Another perspective, which is not mutually exclusive, is that allowing Iraq to fall into chaos is inviting a lot of trouble which is bad for the oil business, global security, etc. Thus the majority of politicians from both parties will at least claim that the US cannot cut and run, but must stay the course. No matter how you look at it, the US will likely not withdraw from Iraq and will not likely concede defeat anytime soon. The only viable way to have "victory" in Iraq is to bring stability, which can only come from putting more troops on the ground. The US military is already low on recruits, so the only way it can get more troops is by instituting a draft.

Hi Hot, Yes they will introduce the draft not just for Iraq but for America's global ambitions. If the US wants to take on anyone more capable than Iraq the draft will have to be introduced. This is when the Patriot Act will be used as will more lies about Iran having nukes and Korea wanting to use them against the US, add to that Syria, Russia and China and any other country that does not kow Tow to those who control the US.

I dont think it matters if a draft comes back or not.
In this year 2006 I seriously doubt a draft would work.
Just because they have a draft,dosent mean people will show up.
Do you really thik people will blindly join in a draft nowdays?
I wouldnt allow my life to be put into the hands of G.W.Bush,period.

You are right in that a few people may find a way out of the draft by moving to Canada, having a doctor diagnose them with some ailment, or by finding some other loophole. But for the most part, the draft will pick up thousands, perhaps millions of people. Many of these people will of course be poor.

There were plenty of draft dodgers in the 60's during the Vietnam War.
Alot of people openly burned there draft card in the streets.
Im pretty sure there were many Draft dodgers at WoodStock,and they werent rounded up.I think the amount of draft dodgers would far exceed the number during Vietnam.A draft just wont work.

im sure the govt knows all to well what to turn out would be should they start a draft. im also convinced that the govt purposely passed the revisions of military commissions, if such an incident every took place, they would call a police state. the hippies were protected under certain rights but now those rights wnt protect anyone. you will be forced into service.

it actually kind of funny or ironic, but when i joined the USMC ppl repeatedly would tell others that no one put a gun to thier head and made them join. it looks, that is now what will happen.

its unsettleing to hear these things, seems like its not actually happening.

Of course there will be a draft. A new democratic congress in january will probably issue a draft. Recruitment quotas are just too damn low.

All this talk about getting higher troop numbers. :shk:
Was nothing learned during the Vietnam war years?

Perhaps our government officials need to see Sir! No, Sir! before they give any more serious thought to a draft.
Because faster than you can rent the movie, I think a new and stronger anti-war movement will begin.

I hope you're right DTOM. Hotpink, nice post, great name!

I've seen people blowing off the idea of a draft on these boards before. Of course, that was when Iraq was going so well, what with all the rebuilt schools and all... and the Demmycrats were trying to introduce the legislation. So perhaps the Dems will bring in a bill next year. As others have noted, recruitment is low, and if the real death toll comes out (and it's way past time for that) it'll be even lower.

And was anything learned during the Vietnam war years? Sure. Embedded reporters, much tighter control over the press, much better grip on propaganda and much greater willingness to paint people as "traitors" for disagreeing. Vietnam: Walter Cronkite. Iraq: Sean Hannity and Bill O'Lielly.

I can't see a way around a draft, personally. I think it's inevitable.

And while I would initially have subscribed to the "china shop" view, now I think that the US just needs to leave ASAP. That's the only way for Iraq to stabilise.

The lesson was learned in Vietnam. Why do you think that most everyone in the military is against the idea of a draft? Who wants some draftee who obviously doesn't want to be there next to him in a foxhole? I think they would prefer that the person next to them at least want to be in the military, if not in combat.

The draft is a bad idea, plain and simple. Even if Congress were to approve the idea, which is hardly likely; Mr. Bush would rightly veto it.

Just found this while looking for the article showing how we all of a sudden need more active troops.

Read it and weep, the Selective Service is testing a new system:

The Selective Service System is planning a comprehensive test of the military draft machinery, which hasn't been run since 1998.

The agency is not gearing up for a draft, an agency official said Thursday. The test itself would not likely occur until 2009.

Meanwhile, the secretary for Veterans Affairs said that "society would benefit" if the U.S. were to bring back the draft and that it shouldn't have any loopholes for anyone who is called to serve. VA Secretary Jim Nicholson later issued a statement saying he does not support reinstituting a draft.

The Selective Service "readiness exercise" would test the system that randomly chooses draftees by birth date and the network of appeals boards that decide how to deal with conscientious objectors and others who want to delay reporting for duty, said Scott Campbell, Selective Service director for operations and chief information officer.

news.yahoo.com...


Here's what I was looking for, a story published yesterday:

President George W. Bush has said that the United States should expand the size of its armed forces, acknowledging that the military has been strained by the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan and would need to grow to cope with what he suggested would be a long battle against Islamic extremism.

www.iht.com...

Just remember, Bush cannot declare war that power is in the hands of congress.

I’m thinking the volunteer armed forces came into existence around 1975. I was discharged from the USAF in 1964. I had originally enlisted in the USAF for 4 years in 1952, not to avoid the 2 year draft, but to avoid service in the infantry or USMC. You were permitted to enlist in either the Army or USMC for 3 years and stay out of the infantry. AF and Navy were strictly 4 year enlistments. I could not swim so that ruled out the Navy. I did not want to crawl in the mud, sleep on the ground and eat out of a mess kit, so it was the USAF for me. I have no regrets although I did give some consideration to enlisting in the Army and choosing the Field Artillery. Close enough to the front lines to hear the bombs going off, but far enough away to be unlikely to get killed.

I have serious misgivings about the volunteer armed forces. In this regard I’m mimicking the Amend 2 types. Should a president decide to suspend elections for example, claiming the security of the country would not allow for ejections, then it is time to “bear arms” as the old time militia were supposed to do. If you’ve studied much history of our Revolutionary War you know the militia rarely showed up when needed. If GW had been dependent on the militia we would have lost the war early on. As it was, the French sent more men to the last battle, Yorktown, than the militia!

Our armed forces are getting urban warfare training of the first order in Baghdad. All members of the armed forces are repeatedly instructed it is there duty to obey all lawful orders from a superior officer. The same kind of instructions were given to the men in Lt. Calley’s platoon at Mi Lai. Our soldiers are propagandized all the time in both subtle ways and in more open organized ways when they are required to attend mass assemblies annually as when I was in the USAF. Soldiers are not lawyers. They would not know who was or who was not an enemy of the United States.

And, in the volunteer army, there may be a tendency to obey the fellow who signs you paycheck and who holds your financial future in his hands, rather than follow your conscience in some incomplete constitutional understanding.

That is why I favor a conscript army.


[edit on 12/21/2006 by donwhite]

A draft would just stir the pot. Then people would take a closer look at what Bush has done in Iraq and plans to do worldwide. You will need a passport to go to Canada real soon and that may make it harder to get in. They may be screening young Americans. With globalization and the economy, except for the rich, in the dumps patriotism doesn't look as appealing as it used to. Maybe the illegal aliens will fight for us, kind of like Rome just before the-----

I was thinking about this yesterday while re-watching "Starship Troopers."

And it hit me - the Bush handlers plan to make citizenship, and the right to vote, contingent on "volunteering" for military service.

My internet just wiped 5 paragraphs.... so screw it:
Starship troopers=Fascism personified
Draft=Quick way to create reason for all out police state due to civil unrest
Those who flee from the draft=Canada and Mexico no longer an option, they will turn you back thanks to regulations. They have not turned back the AWOL because they are so few the military does not care
Draft2=If you do not support the government, its actions, its current wars and future wars at this rate RUN. If you fight for them you are supporting them no matter WHAT you do.
Draft3=To survive, dissapear in the forests and deserts.

posted by polanksi

A draft would just stir the pot. Then people would take a closer look at Iraq and plans to go worldwide. You will soon need a passport to go to Canada. [The world’s longest undefended border will become a memory.] With globalization and the economy, [those] in the [economic] dumps, [knee-jerk] patriotism doesn't look as appealing as it did. Maybe the illegal aliens will fight for us, kind of like Rome just before the fall? [Edited by Don W]

I know a draft poses huge problems. To implement a fair draft - what we did not have in the Vietnam War - requires a sea change in America’s attitude towards social obligations. In War 2, 16 million men and women served. About half were drafted. The highest number on duty at one time was 13 million in August,1945. Our plans for invading the Japanese home islands started with 500,000 men going ashore on Shikoku, the island just south of the main island, Honshu. Shikoku would provide the staging site for the main invasion, which would require 1,000,000 men. Army doctrine says to hold 1/3rd of your force in reserve so that meant we’d need another 500,000 combat ready men held back. Yet anointer 1,000,000 men were planned for the Japan occupation force afer the shooting ended. We predicted losing between 10% and 30% of the landing forces KIA. 1 million body bags were ordered. Yet, America’s population in 1940 was given at just 132 million.

We fought the Korean War with the left overs of War 2. Men and material. I for example, worked on WW2 Douglas B26s taken out of mothballs, which served in Korea as close ground support or reconnaissance work. I was a radio radar mechanic in the 11th TRS - Tactical Reconnaissance Squadron (W), for weather. 99% of our senior NCOs were WW2 vets who either had stayed in or who were recalled or rejoined when NK invaded SK. June, 1950. We were 12 months into the War before F86s began to replace the lack-luster F80s that had come into service in 1946 and were out-performed by the MIG15s. The F80s became photo reconnaissance planes in the 12th, 15th, and 45th squadrons added to my 11th, that made up the 67th TRW (wing) at Kimpo AB, (K14).

Until 1965, we did the same thing in Vietnam. Used WW2 left-overs. Do not get me wrong, there was nothing wrong with our equipment in 1945. It was just that our adversaries - enemies - had moved on to Generation 2 equipment while we are still using Generation 1 stuff. That does not mean much to the folks back home, but it becomes a life and death matter to the men in the front line. If we had been equipped at the start in 1965 with the equipment we had at the end, in 1975, I’d estimate 1/3rd of the KIA - 59,000 - would not have been KIA. 20,000 dead men. But that’s life in the fast lane. Alfred Lord Tennyson said it best, see Foot Note 1.

Demographically we have about 40 million men and women in draft age. 18 to 34. Younger than 18, they are not fully grown or developed, at least physically. Over 34 and they become disciplinary problems. Unwilling to follow orders without questions. Not good for front line soldiers. When the captain says first squad, take the left, second squad take the right and third squad, hold the center, you cannot argue, debate or make alternate suggestions. And leaving the field of battle on your own? Officers are authorized to shoot you dead! So, that’s a no-no.

At the end of 2006, we have 507,000 men and women in the Army, and 180,000 in the USMC according to numbers I heard yesterday. It would have turned out much differently in Iraq if we had had 800,000 Army and 250,000 MC in 2003. But the simple truth is we can‘t afford that number on today’s pay scale. I’d suggest drafting people for 2 years at 33% of the volunteer pay scale, or for 3 years at 50% of the volunteer scale. Those who did not qualify for the Armed Forces would be offered alternative public service jobs, paid at the same rates. The one feature that attracted million of men to volunteer - even for the draft - was the promise of a college education on discharge.

The WW2 GI Bill was so simple. You got 1.5 months of college for each 1 month of service, up to a maximum of 36 months college, which would get you through a 4 year program, with summers off. Ex-GI’s had choice A., a monthly stipend closely calculated to pay your way at a state college or university - no tuition back then - or choice B., the Fed’s would pay your tuition, books and fees, room and board, directly to the institution, and give you $50 a month - today, say, $500 - for your misc. expenses. Let the same rules apply to those who elect forest service, or nursing home or day care assistants or single parent family mentors, public housekeeping such as cleaning the streets and roads, and helpers in upkeep for all the public’s buildings and facilities. Volunteering for the public sector draft would be encouraged and registration by high school seniors would be accepted. High school drop-outs would be tracked on the GED programs. Of course, craft, trade and technical school would be treated as equal to college or university.

posted by Vekar

Starship troopers=Fascism personified
Draft=Quick way to create reason for all out police state due to civil unrest
Those who flee from the draft=Canada and Mexico no longer an option, they will turn you back thanks to regulations. They have not turned back the AWOL because they are so few the military does not care
Draft2=If you do not support the government, its actions, its current wars and future wars at this rate RUN. If you fight for them you are supporting them no matter WHAT you do.
Draft3=To survive, disappear in the forests and deserts. [Edited by Don W]

There are risks attendant on change. Especially one that is controversial. But how long do you pursue a failed or failing policy?


Foot Note 1.
Half a league half a league, Half a league onward,
All in the valley of Death Rode the six hundred:
'Forward, the Light Brigade! Charge for the guns' he said:
Into the valley of Death Rode the six hundred.

Was there a man dismay'd ? Not tho' the soldier knew
Some one had blunder'd: Theirs not to make reply,
Theirs not to reason why, Theirs but to do & die,
Into the valley of Death Rode the six hundred.
'Forward, the Light Brigade!'

By Alfred Lord Tennyson


[edit on 12/23/2006 by donwhite]

WHY do ppl contiually say starshiptroopers is fascism propaganda. its a movie that satires fascism to illistarte a point, that point is a nation that needs an enemy to keep moral up is not a good way to live. so many ppl bashed that movie when it came out, and none of them realised the point. Verhoeven has said this so many times.


back to the topic...........

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[edit on 23-12-2006 by DontTreadOnMe]

Just remember, Bush cannot declare war that power is in the hands of congress.

Sorry, but why Bush started a war with Iraq? Officially, he didn't declared war against Iraq nor Afghanistan. And he can go to war under the new presidential powers under the War On Terror without the approval of congress.

WHY do ppl contiually say starshiptroopers is fascism propaganda.

Maybe you should read some of the work of the author of this movie, he's a fascist.

[edit on 23-12-2006 by Vitchilo]

Originally posted by Vitchilo

WHY do ppl contiually say starshiptroopers is fascism propaganda.

Maybe you should read some of the work of the author of this movie, he's a fascist.

tru ive never read the author telling of the story, but the movie its self was a satire.


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[edit on 23-12-2006 by DontTreadOnMe]