Originally posted by magicmushroom
Can Americans say when things started to go tits up in the US, there seemed to be a time when the country as a whole was far more benevolent, its people more free and happy with their lot. Then something happened that changed all that, does anyone have any ideas when, my guess is around the time of the JFK assasination, Vietnam followed soon after and it seems a downward spiral since then.

I'm not trying to insult Americans but you must know something has happened and have an idea when. Its like the actors in a film have been replaced halfway through it, its still the same film but it dose not feel right.

Who are these gansters who do not have America and its people at heart, was this all planned decades ago to eventually lead up to the NAO, a bit like the Common Market for Europeans. Who are the movers and shakers who are controlling all this, does anyone really know.

Umm... 1913?

Soon as America signed itself over, into "slavery", that's when things went "tits up".

Id say during the War of Northern Agression.

The Federal government was stripping the individual states of their rights, yes even secession was and still is a states right, and when the states began to protest this the neo-Federalist, Abe Lincoln, used force to beat down liberty and impose Federal rule.

Next to blame would be the New Deal and the permanence of federal aid in all its forms.

Next, free trade for driving up the costs of American products and pushing industry, business and jobs off to the third world. Why is it so hard a concept to jack up traiffs on imported goods and lower the costs of doing business for Americans and American companies?

Its all mucked up royally.

Now the moron masses love their handouts and their government too much to say no. Even if the end result is a stronger, more independant nation full of drive and ambition.

I think that America is ever changing. It was simple back then, when we did not meddle in the affairs of people asking for help.

America still has along ways to go before it knows what works and what doesn't. You have to remember people, we are truely a young nation, but also the most amazing. We have to be careful. We will make mistakes, and make good choices.

Back when Europe was only a few hundred years old, it faught wars over land, culture, hell even because of women. Back then Europe made mistakes, and got a little to far in the hole. But what happened to them, was they all got ruled by a single nation, because they were landlocked with each other. The only nations landlocked to America are Canada and Mexico, and I see Mexico not being a military problem, Canada, who knows what those crazy Canadians are up to?

Most people in America will get that joke about Canadians.

Everyone hates us. Why you ask is because the fact that they are jealous of the freedoms we have here. Yes we still have freedoms, nothing was taken away. We can still go where ever we want, eat where ever, talk to who ever and even about what ever. Unlike some other nations that restrict from talking about what ever. I am not saying all nations are like that, but only the ones that hate us the most. Iraq, Iran, North Korea all hate the US. Because we set the example of freedoms, and they don't like it because they can't control their populous as easy.

Well I have alot more to say, but I have it here.

I agree with the person who said the War of Northern Aggression was a major turning point. The states had every right to secede but were not allowed to. But I think in recent times, 1947 and 1963 were the major turning points. In 1947, we became a national security state, with the passage of the National Security Act. We had the bomb then, too, which changed the balance of power drastically. In 1963, Kennedy was assasinated and I believe a coup happened at that time. the Bay of Pigs cannot be attributed to Kennedy - it was a rogue element in the CIA, which he was trying to get rid of, because of their extreme war-hawk attitude. Kennedy just took the fall, as any honorable man in his position would have done, after all he is the Commander in Chief and the buck stops there. I think it was this same rogue element that took control of America.

Our foreign policy most certainly changed in 2001. PNAC published a paper that was our foreign policy and it stated that we would invade any country we wanted to if deemed a threat by our govt. This was a major change in foreign policy, probably the most major one since the Monroe Doctrine. It made our nation an aggressor.

MM, I do know what you mean about America changing. I know our govt has, not sure about our people. We never used to be concerned about things like gay marriage. We have always been isolated due to our geography, and the media doesn't report what's going on in Europe or any other place. Actually, our media has changed drastically, too. There are no investigative journalists any more. News isn't investigated any more. The Patriot Act, the Patriot Act II and the Military Commissions Act stripped us of habeas corpus, the right to be free from spying and took alot of other rights as well. All of it was strictly unConstitutional but it passed. Our Congress failed us time and again by passing laws that were unConstitutional.

We used to be a nation of fighters for democracy. But now it's as if evryone is tired of fighting the system, of trying to raise children with 2 working parents and still not being able to pay the bills.

We have spent too many years behing the scenes, mucking up other countries, toppling their govt and stealing their resources. I'm talking Iraq in the 1950's, Kissinger's Chilean coup, alot of other coups in South America, meddling with Cuba, other countries elections, etc. And Americans are still in denial about that. No one can go around messing with other countries without eventually paying the bill. The chickens have come home to roost and the rest of the world realizes what America has become. That's why the world fears us, we're a loose cannon, concerned only for ourselves, while we invade other countries and push them around, all in the name of "democracy".

1989.

The ammendment to the constitution that limits a president to two elected terms meant that we had to replace Ronald Reagan, the greatest civilian liberator of humans in the past century, with a big-government socialist/globalist worldview.

The damage to america's anarcho-federalist reputation and principles has been irreparable.




edit for grammar

[edit on 19-12-2006 by dr_strangecraft]

I, for one will not take part in this transparent attempt to incite American bitterness.

I don't know what country MM lives in, but I find it extremely interesting that we commonly see these kinds of threads asking Americans why we aren't more ashamed, or furious, or why we don't take back our government, or when we think our country went "tits up" Why do we never see anyone asking the same questions about Canada, the UK, Australia......?

Don't tell me everything is champagne and caviar everywhere but the "bad ole' USA".

The fact that everyone focuses so intently on the US only tells me this country is still the greatest, and most important nation on earth.

Originally posted by magicmushroom
Can Americans say when things started to go tits up in the US...

First, I need to say hello to everybody. I'm a longtime browser who was finally moved to register by this post.

Anyhow, I actually have a theory on this and believe I may have pinpointed the precise moment in time when the U.S. started to go "tits up" as you say.

The Summer of 1967. That is, I believe, when everything changed. By all accounts, more than 100,000 youngsters made the pilgrammage to San Francisco and other Bay Area locales for what has since been dubbed the, "Summer of Love." That amounted to a basic mainstreaming of the hippie experience as the time and place grabbed the attention of the national media and brought "hippies" into everyone's living rooms.

There's a lot more to it than that--none of it having to do with a conspiracy () but, even as an 8-year-old kid I remember having a vague sense that all the rules had suddenly changed. And not entirely for the better.

So that's my theory, anyhow. And, again, hello.

I'm really amazed and very saddened that so many Americans are not able to take an objective view of the U.S. and its problems. We are at best a naive and arrogant lot who don't take the trouble to find out what's going on with other countries. But most of all it's the myopic insistence that we're better than anyone else on the planet.

But it's alright America, go back to sleep in your armchair and watch your football games, shop and consume. Our govt will take care of everything...NOT!

well north america union has a website now so disbelievers well your just being ignorant now.

www.spp.gov

have fun reading

RIP America

ForrestLady, I can't help but think your post is at least partially directed toward me and my previous post. If I'm wrong, I apologize.

I hold no misconceptions regarding the many problems our nation/society faces. I was simply expounding on the almost daily threads taking our nation/society apart. It's as if we are the only nation on earth struggling with balancing security and liberty, economic strength and protectionism, workers rights and the basic tenets of capitalism, etc. We are not.... and I maintain we deal with these struggles at least as well as any other country.

I also maintain everyone else's almost constant preoccupation with our internal and external struggles reinforces the concept that the US is still the standard that most nations compare themselves to.

Originally posted by darkbluesky
ForrestLady, I can't help but think your post is at least partially directed toward me and my previous post. If I'm wrong, I apologize.

I hold no misconceptions regarding the many problems our nation/society faces. I was simply expounding on the almost daily threads taking our nation/society apart. It's as if we are the only nation on earth struggling with balancing security and liberty, economic strength and protectionism, workers rights and the basic tenets of capitalism, etc. We are not.... and I maintain we deal with these struggles at least as well as any other country.

I also maintain everyone else's almost constant preoccupation with our internal and external struggles reinforces the concept that the US is still the standard that most nations compare themselves to.

Yes, you are correct in that I disagree with you. And let me say "thank you" for responding so graciously, I really appreciate it. I fully figure to get lots of flaming posts, but so be it. Anyway, I disagree with you because I think the U.S. is the focus of the world because they are AFRAID of us. We do alot of damage to other countries, plain and simple and they are afraid of us suddenly invading them and destroying their infrastructure, killing their people and stealing their resources. This has been going on for a long time now, but they try to keep it from the people, with the media's propaganda. This is our STATED foreign policy, that we will invade anyone we want to. Read the PNAC document, our official foreign policy. That's why everyone nervously keeps an eye on the U.S., they don't want to be next to be destroyed. Kind of like an abused child, that spends its time watching the abuser and trying to figure out what's going to happen next, so they might be able to prevent it.

Somewhere along the line the govt began to ignore the wishes of the people. The post about the SPP site is an excellent example. Our govt is creating a North American Union, somewhat similar to the EU. A huge difference is that most Americans don't know about it, would probably not read about it but still think it's a good idea, or simply flat out refuse to believe it. But here we are, I've been reading about this for several years now, enough to find out about the meeting between Mexico, Canada, and U.S. heads of state in March 2005, which their very own website states. Our govt is planning to join together these 3 countries, but the most egregiously hideous error they made, IMO, was this:

The people of the EU nations got to vote as to whether or not they wanted to be part of the EU. They also get to vote on who to let in.

The U.S. govt gave its citizens ZERO choice in it, no voting, all done in secret and then announced after its a done deal.

I ask you, is that democracy to in effect, disband the U.S. without allowing the People to choose, let alone even telling them???

I love my country deeply and the Constitution and I am very much saddened by what we have become. But I refuse to let my love and loyalty be blinded by not seeing the many mistakes we've made and the cruelty we have exhibited.

Originally posted by forestlady
I'm really amazed and very saddened that so many Americans are not able to take an objective view of the U.S. and its problems. We are at best a naive and arrogant lot who don't take the trouble to find out what's going on with other countries. But most of all it's the myopic insistence that we're better than anyone else on the planet.

But it's alright America, go back to sleep in your armchair and watch your football games, shop and consume. Our govt will take care of everything...NOT!

Maybe this was partly directed at me, since I hold what most people view as contemptible political views.

I know a great deal about life in other countries, having lived in many countries throughout Europe and the Middle East. I had a unique opportunity to travel in Eastern Europe before the collapse of the Iron Curtain, so I don't speak from ignorance. As a matter of fact, my travels and involvement in international trade may give me a perspective that many Americans and Europeans lack.

I think we are the best nation on earth, despite our obvious flaws, which is why I returned here to raise my family. I revel in the opportunities I've had to travel and do business around the globe; I hope my children are able someday to go where I've gone and see the things I've seen.

America has been freest in those areas where we have allowed free enterprise (which is not the same as capitalism) a free hand. We are faltering where we have substituted socialism for liberty, and government planning for competition.

Maybe everybody hates us. Just like they hated the UK right up till World War II; just like they hated the French, and before that, the Romans. Envy is a perennial human trait. If you ever become known for your successes in any field, you soon find that everyone feels qualified to critique your every move.

all the best.

.

I don't care about football, either.

Originally posted by dr_strangecraft

Maybe everybody hates us. Just like they hated the UK right up till World War II; just like they hated the French, and before that, the Romans. Envy is a perennial human trait. If you ever become known for your successes in any field, you soon find that everyone feels qualified to critique your every move.

all the best.


I don't care about football, either.

Dude (I use this sobriquet with the utmost sincerity and respect)

I'm casting my WATS vote for you partly for your insights and clearly stated opinions of various issues recently, partly for your respect and admiration of Ronald Reagan, and partly, but not leastly, our common appreciation for the Big Lebowski!

Carry on Dude!

You have voted dr_strangecraft for the Way Above Top Secret award. You have two more votes this month.

Originally posted by SpeakerofTruth
Well, my dad, God bles him, always said that things started a downward moral decline in the 60s. He felt like the 60s were the ruination of the youth of the United States. However, he pinned it on the influx of outside influences like the Beatles and such.
edit on 18-12-2006 by SpeakerofTruth]

My Dad's 75 and he says the same thing.
He said when the Beatles hit, rock'n'roll, long hair, drugs, free sex, live-in relationships, etc, it all changed. He observed that that generation changed everything and really set the decline in motion. He talks about how people were patriotic and loved this country, but the hippy generation changed it all. He called them pussies who were afraid to fight and die for their country. Hmm, maybe it' true. If you think about it, their generation is in power now. And look at the state of this country. It's the 50-60 year-olds running things now and this is that old hippy generation, the ones who rebelled in the 1960's, who set the decline of morals in motion. They also run the media now, and look at the sad state of TV programming and the morals it teaches. They might be old, with short hair, jobs, and kids now, but their heads are still thinking the same. And the spawn they are producing is way more screwed up then their own generation. God help the world years from now.......

Originally posted by rocknroll

Originally posted by SpeakerofTruth
However, he pinned it on the influx of outside influences like the Beatles and such.
edit on 18-12-2006 by SpeakerofTruth]

My Dad's 75 and he says the same thing.
He said when the Beatles hit, rock'n'roll, long hair, drugs, free sex, live-in relationships, etc, it all changed.

Old farts in the UK blamed Bill Hailey and Elvis for the start of our decline.

Outside influences? Of course it's not OUR fault at all!

Just scapegoats IMO, cf wayward badly-brought up children's parents blaming blaming heavy metal and 'satanic subliminal messages' for their offsprings' outrages.

Nygdan, you have some fanciful ideas of American history, you did not loose in Vietnam, funny I thought it was a rout, thats what it lookd like on the news, very undignified. As for ww2 the Russians had the Germans beat before we did. Going slightly off topic here but America has aspirations that it cannot deliver on, Vietnam was one , Korea was two and Iraq makes three. The difference between the US and the UK is that when we went into rob, pillage, murder and enslave is that we stayed the course till people were sick of us and could fight back.

And for all those who think America should thank them, well I will give you a clue, do you think I should ask an African to thank me for giving him slavery, or an Asian for the fact my forbears (including my Father) for murdering and torturing civilians in India no I dont think they will be queing up to thank the British for anything.
Do you think those who have lost their livelyhoods to American industrialism should thank you. How many vietnamese or koreans should thank you. What like you should say thanks to Mexicans, Chinese etc. who are putting you out of work.

And to those who think this is about America bashing well I'm from the Uk you can call me or my country all you like we've done some good things but we have done alot of bad things and we deserve the stick we get for it. We have been responsible for the deaths of millions and the suffering of hundreds of millions, people to this day still hate us for what we did to them and their countries.

Only one person on this thread up to now has had the balls to admit the truth and talk about the real issue's and thats ForestLady. How many Americans have read PNAC and what it means for every non American. The implication is clear, America wishes to rule the world and will do anything to achieve this end, everything from befriending allies to invading any country it wants. So Nygdan you say America has not changed eh, you need to get off that computer abit more.

The problem for the US that unlike the British fighting those nasty savages with their spears and clubs the US is facing nuclear powers and armed forces that pose a real threat to its ambitions. Hence the bogus WOT, its not difficult to achieve when those you wish to control already wear blindfolds.

America's actions are actually making Americans more at risk from attack not safer. This bullcrap of take your enemy out first before he hits you line is a joke, they are only the enemy because of your own actions. Saddam was a friend of the US, supplied etc. by the West, he steps out of line and now we have to fight him. The whole show was a set up from the start, a long term plan to allow America to invade the ME, well second place really as we were already there in 1914 to grab the oil. These are not random events as portrayed there well thought out plans they take years to come to fruition.


The whole reason for this thread was to see just how aware Americans were that thier country had gone from being insular to one of wanting to rule the world. We all know the end to the story its just a case of are people willing to make the sacrifice, well not the rich, powerful and politicians that is, they dont fight wars, they just send the cannon fodder to do it for them.

Originally posted by magicmushroom

And for all those who think America should thank them . . . .

Freudian slip?

Regardless, I don't think anybody mentioned that America should be thanked in any way. I certainly don't believe anyone owes the USA any gratitude.

See, it is sick to expect someone else to love you. We should never be in the business of trying to "earn" another nation's love. Love is a gift, which means it cannot be earned or purchased. Wanting someone to love you means wanting them to feel a certain way; and that's not healthy for either party.

We are not entitled to anyone's love or gratitude.

Respect is something different, altogether. EVERY nation on this planet, in my opinion, is entitled to respect. And any nation, the USA included among the rest, that doesn't respect other nations will reap its due.

But if all nations are entitled to respect, then the USA is, also. Did Saddam show anything other than disdain for the United States and the rest of the coalition to which he surrendered, and AGREED to arms inspections? And as far as the invasion of Iraq goes, your government, as well as America's chief rivals in the UN, voted to support the action.

Is North Korea respectful of the USA, or Japan or South Korea, or the UN??

Is the Islamic Republic of Iran respectful of Israel, or the US, or England, or the United Nations? NO. In fact, Iran has nothing but contempt for anything but it's own institutions, and the tyranny through terror and bloodshed. No, unless it is wrapped in the green flag of Islam, Iran has declared its undying animosity to the entirety of civilization, east or west.

Has the USA shown anything but ENDLESS restraint toward both North Korea AND Iran? Both of those states routinely threaten their neighbors, and even their own citizens.

You complain about America's economic tyranny, and perhaps you have reason to. But millions who lived in fear of Saddam's woodchipper, who live in fear today because they want democracy, or merely want to shout something besides "Alahu Akhbar" at a football match, or who merely want a bowl of rice, would be happy to trade places with you.

How many refugees are sneaking across the border to live in North Korea, or Iran? Not nearly as many as try to come to the United Kingdom and democracies just like it.

Most of the world dreams of coming to America. Probably because there are more jobs here, and lower taxes, and more freedom than everywhere else, the UK included.

.

Originally posted by magicmushroom

America's actions are actually making Americans more at risk from attack not safer.

This bullcrap of take your enemy out first before he hits you line is a joke, they are only the enemy because of your own actions.

Your concern for our safety is appreciated. Since you clearly do not approve of our actions to secure our saftey thus far, what do you propose?

The whole reason for this thread was to see just how aware Americans were that thier country had gone from being insular to one of wanting to rule the world.

As I previously surmised....baiting.

Originally posted by Nygdan

Originally posted by magicmushroom
Then something happened that changed all that, does anyone have any ideas when, my guess is around the time of the JFK assasination, Vietnam followed soon after and it seems a downward spiral since then.

....
Vietnam didn't follow Kennedy. Eisenhower, seeing that the french colonialists were falling apart and that the communists were stepping in, started minimal, advisory, US invovlement in the french colony of Vietnam.

Kennedy escalated it to all out war.

Remember, this is the same Kennedy who risked war in europe with the soviets by flying over and dropping materials into East Berlin. THe same kennedy who risked global thermonuclear war over a tiny meaningless island called cuba. And it was during Kennedy's administration that the pentagon came up with Operation Northwoods. Kennedy was the one pushing the Bay of Pigs Invasion, and who used the CIA to conduct mulitple assasination attempts on Castro.



I would say that nothing has changed. This is the same america that it allways was. Its impressive how people look back to the somewhat distant, somewhat foggily recollected past and glorify it into a golden age.

Long before our modern problems with terrorists, we were obsessed over the internationalists communists and soviets. Before that, the radical anarchists and labour unions. Before we were freaking out over mexican immigrants, we were freaking out over german and italian and irish immigrants

I mean, this is the same country that created a constitution and bill of rights, insisting that all men were equal and shoudl be free, and yet was still involved in slavery decades after it dropped out of sight in europe and the uk.

Things haven't 'gotten worse' in the US. Things are how they've allways been.

And as far as globalisation, its only today recovering to the levels it was reaching before the world wars really knocked it back.

Yea......! And on top of all of that the morons who told you back in the 60's to crawl under a desk to protect yourself from a nuclear attack when you were in school...Are the same group(i.e. Republicans & Democrats) who told you in 2001 to run out and grab a couple rolls of Duct tape before the terrorist strike with biological weapons and you'll be all safe and sound.