End all be all...Russia's Status as a Super Power

Originally posted by Ioseb_Jugashvili

Originally posted by semperfoo
Your only looking at a very small part of the picture. In a conventional scenario america stands second to none IMO. Thats our bread and butter right there.
And in a conventional sense we have achieved victory.

So let's look at the big part of the picture shall we? Besides winning over a inferior army, what has been achieved??
1.A paper democracy
2.Civil War
3.Blatant Human Abuses

We destroyed the conventional Iraqi military with reletive ease in a matter of 3 weeks.

Wow, big achievement, considering how incredibly inferior the iraq army was.

We destroyed the safe haven for the taliban and Al Qaeda in afghanistan with relative ease.

Occupied a region only, taliban and Al Qaeda still exist, and still attack...besides occupying a parched country, nothing achieved.

Its the occupation part that gets messy. Your seeing American forces trying to 'prevent' collateral damage right now.

Well considering US forces had no excuse to be in Iraq but false arguements, that's pretty nice of the US.

Had we used everything that is in a superpowers arsenal we could make Iraq a parking lot.

Sounds like Nazi Germany to me "Let's use all our arsenal regardless of civilians, even when they are not the enemy." That's how war was waged in the 40s, not the modern age, when unnessary death and grief can be somewhat prevented.

Yea way to go. Thanks for buchtering my original post to the point of NO return just to suit your likings.... You just gotta get that daily ritual of hating america out of the way dont you.

Originally posted by centurion1211
Regarding what you stated in your last post, please accept this as me "briefly responding to you" to say that I do not agree with pretty much anything you have posted for all the reasons previously stated by myself and many others. In addition to the tedious length of your posts, your tendency towards insulting the intelligence of anyone that disagrees with you has grown more than troubling and annoying.

Now, as you stated in the title of this post, can this truly be the "end all" of posts regarding russia's (imaginary) status as a super power?

Thank you in advance!

Agreed 100%. Once more stellars sources are suspect at best and his conclusions are even worse. He just flogs the same dead horse over and over again. I think he perscribes to Goebels propaganda strategy, the bigger the lie the more blievable it is. However he didnt count on so many people showing him up all the time and completely disproving his conclusions.

I for one wish to stick to a conversation based in reality, so I hvae chosen to ignore him. He just posts the same stuff over and over again, It's been disproven once ( and many more times by other members ) no point ging over the same ground.

Originally posted by Ioseb_Jugashvili
Sounds like Nazi Germany to me "Let's use all our arsenal regardless of civilians, even when they are not the enemy." That's how war was waged in the 40s, not the modern age, when unnessary death and grief can be somewhat prevented.

LOL, well that's exactly what the Russian did in CHechnya, they massed artillery and destroyed the capital of Grozny killing 10's of thousands of civilians, not to mention many villages being wiped out.
So you are comparing Russia to the Nazi's, I'd have to agree with you in this case.

Originally posted by rogue1

Originally posted by Ioseb_Jugashvili
Sounds like Nazi Germany to me "Let's use all our arsenal regardless of civilians, even when they are not the enemy." That's how war was waged in the 40s, not the modern age, when unnessary death and grief can be somewhat prevented.

LOL, well that's exactly what the Russian did in CHechnya, they massed artillery and destroyed the capital of Grozny killing 10's of thousands of civilians, not to mention many villages being wiped out.
So you are comparing Russia to the Nazi's, I'd have to agree with you in this case.

wow that's really ignorrant! , You don't know what happened there, because I was there for 3 years!!! and NO we did not go in the house just to kill innocent civilians!!! are you out of your mind??? distressed or what?
Hate when people assume and don't know what happened there.

Interesting, Galmine, because that was the picture the media from the west showed.
Grozny is a prospering city then, without major damage, devestation and depopulation?

Originally posted by aaaaa
Interesting, Galmine, because that was the picture the media from the west showed.
Grozny is a prospering city then, without major damage, devestation and depopulation?

True. Maybe a little off the topic, but does anyone have any current pictures of Grozny so we can determine if it's been destroyed by the russians?

Originally posted by K_galmine
wow that's really ignorrant!

, You don't know what happened there, because I was there for 3 years!!! and NO we did not go in the house just to kill innocent civilians!!! are you out of your mind??? distressed or what?
Hate when people assume and don't know what happened there.

LOL, right tell me another story, lol Statistics don't lie. ALso neither do satellite pictures. Grozny was flattened by Russian artillery, you don't need to assume anything, a picture says a thousand words ( you were never there otherwise you wouldn't dispute the utter destruction teh Russians wreaked ). Thousands of innocent people were killed bby teh Russians during this bombardment. Also the Russians made alot of people disappear, they would be picked up for interrogation and never come back.

Grozny 16th December 1999



Grozny 16th March 2000



Could you imagine if the US committeds warcrimes on this scale in Iraq.




[edit on 17-1-2007 by rogue1]

wow, what a pathetic military. this is why I will always voice my opinion in regards to the russian 'superpower' threads etc because it's totally bogus, they have pathetic tactics and pathetic military personell along with imaginary weaponry and capabilities.


also thats common soviet tactics picking up people and making them dissapear, stalin was the grandmaster in doing do. instant liquidation.

[edit on 17-1-2007 by ape]

Rogue,

Thanks for providing those very telling images. And ape makes the excellent point that the U.S. is "just a little" more concerned with collateral damage than the russians have been as the pictures show in sickening detail. And the really sad part is that this territory was once part of russia (soviet union), and likely still inhabited by many russian citizens, who were no doubt kiled or made homeless. Imagine if the U.S. did something like that?

For the sake of clarification:
The Russians did, indeed, use many ruthless tactics. Among these were launching cruise missles at a crowded market place, to mark the beginning of the war -- The first shots, so to speak -- as well as hitting a maternity ward.
Further, there was massive artillery bombardment.
And, in the last stage of the second war, they convinced the several thousand manning troops inside the main-city walls that they could come out peacefully, and be treated as POW's, or released.
They did come out, seeing no soldiers.
However, the day before Russians had heavily mined the entire length of the field, and proceeded to close off the narrow trail they'd been lead upon with artillery, inflicting a 94% casualty rate, with most survivors had inflicted injuries which left them chronically disabled.

The human cost was high.

However, the structural damage is slightly exaggerated. While cruise missles, rockets, missles, and artillery were used excessively, a large percentage of damage came from the systematic demolition of most buildings. The Russians performed this in occupied zones, as well as post-war, as the refugees were allowed to re-enter.



Edit: Many civillian casualties were ethnically Russian, as stated.

[edit on 17-1-2007 by Iblis]

hmm, thats like the US bombing the hell out of vermont if they ever seperated from the union ( which wont ever happen ) and taking out americans, this is brutal on another level and one has to be seriously ice cold to take out its own countrymen and women.

we are opening up a whole new can of worms as the 9/11 inside job people ( stellarX being one of them ) are going to make an attempt to dumb down this conversation of brutality.

[edit on 17-1-2007 by ape]

[edit on 17-1-2007 by ape]

No. The argument will become "Abu Gharib was just as brutal."
The fact that attention is drawn to what western media can use to leverage against the powers they feel they can control and ignore the magnitude of the crimes committed by regimes they can not influence.

i dont think it matters who the super power is because if what i heard is true about the u.s and russia signing treaties with aliens to have bases on mars and the moon then theyre going to fight as defending the human race when a real war starts.


one between humans and aliens.

what the hell? different forum man.

Originally posted by Iblis
For the sake of clarification:
The Russians did, indeed, use many ruthless tactics. Among these were launching cruise missles at a crowded market place, to mark the beginning of the war -- The first shots, so to speak -- as well as hitting a maternity ward.


[edit on 17-1-2007 by Iblis]

Uh, that is bullcrap, you telling me that russians waited and artilleried when people were buying and selling stuff at an open market? LMAO holy F U CK.. do you seriously believe that?

By The way APE, don't fkin tell me that they destroyed these houses when civilians were in it. you have to remember that terorrists dress up as civilians just like in iraq, and when you see dead bodies of people laying down in civilian clothes you automatically assume he was civilian,, use logic and a freaking common sense.. jeeeez...

Well let then see BAghdad buddie and see how many people died there?? how about it aHHH??? Kyrva

By the way, Russians did NOT just picked and kidnapped or killed random civilians. Because Russian soldiers can think u KNOW?? ever heard of an individual choice??? DOubt that with such ignorrant posts..
You know at least Russians rebuilding it and built several new schools there, and you don't even know why most of the buildings were destroyed, not by russian artillery but by the gorilla tactics used by chechens, which made you believe that Russians actually bombed innocent civilians.
You are sooooo gullible I can't believe. seriously do a little research and ask people who were actually there, u haven't been there, I WAS.. so buddie u don't have to tell me that propaganda of yours, okay?

[edit on 17-1-2007 by K_galmine]

a. Please keep on-topic. Further, Abu Gharib and any military operation are entirely indifferent, and by their nature, unable to be related. Using your speech in an attempt to derail the western media, which is an entirely other discussion in and off itself, while being off-topic, is not proper etiquette.
Please refrain from further attacks.

As to the Russian bombing of a market-place and maternity-ward.
www.reference.com...
en.wikipedia.org...
www.globalsecurity.org...
fmso.leavenworth.army.mil...
www.worldaffairsboard.com...
www.gfbv.it...
www.crimesofwar.org...
news.bbc.co.uk...
www.hrw.org...
www.blinkbits.com...
[Missles were tracked by United States surveillance]
www.aeronautics.ru...
www.link-ex.net...
www.fas.org...



As you'll note in several, often the Russians would deny accusation, or rumors, without any further evidence -- Although they were given the burden of proof.

This is not an effort to say something happened. It simply did. I apologize that you received misinformation, though this is also an entirely off-topic discussion. Please return back to subject.



[edit on 18-1-2007 by Iblis]

Originally posted by Iblis
a. Please keep on-topic. Further, Abu Gharib and any military operation are entirely indifferent, and by their nature, unable to be related. Using your speech in an attempt to derail the western media, which is an entirely other discussion in and off itself, while being off-topic, is not proper etiquette.
Please refrain from further attacks.

As to the Russian bombing of a market-place and maternity-ward.
www.reference.com...
en.wikipedia.org...
www.globalsecurity.org...
fmso.leavenworth.army.mil...://www.worldaffairsboard.com/nato-defense-topics/1965-analysis-chechnya.html
www.gfbv.it...



As you'll note in several, often the Russians would deny accusation, or rumors, without any further evidence -- Although they were given the burden of proof.

This is not an effort to say something happened. It simply did. I apologize that you received misinformation, though this is also an entirely off-topic discussion. Please return back to subject.

exactly stay on the topic and don't post this but u did... so I will finish it about chechnya.
ABout the SS-21 being launched against people at the open market, that is a rumour that has been spread, we even have a joke about how Western media portrayed and assumed that russians would launch at their own people and kill 140 people.. come on... are you that gullible.. every body knows that muslim extremists do in iraq to their own people, well, the same thing happened in chechnya, the scud or (scarab to be correct) has been in hands of terrorists, what they did is had a huge military truck drive by near the open market(bazaar) pretending to be russians, dressed in russian uniforms, which can be easily bought at a black market. THen that Truck(Zil) which contained scarab or SS-21 was detonaited killing all these civilians and blamed on RUssians.





In this kind type of truck it was transported and no, Russians did not order to launch at own people-RUssian civilians) come on, what ever is posted in wikipedia is not a reliable source, everyone can edit, so I am not surprised you actually believe it.. no offense
done

Originally posted by Iblis

However, the structural damage is slightly exaggerated. While cruise missles, rockets, missles, and artillery were used excessively, a large percentage of damage came from the systematic demolition of most buildings. The Russians performed this in occupied zones, as well as post-war, as the refugees were allowed to re-enter.
[edit on 17-1-2007 by Iblis]

The pictures posted earlier show to me more than "slightly exaggerated structural damage". At least 95% of the buildings in the first picture are just flat out gone from the 2nd picture of the exact same area. Looks like a Hiroshima picture, or something. So, even if the refugees were still alive (?) and allowed to re-enter, re-enter what?

[edit on 1/18/2007 by centurion1211]

The Russian thought they could hang with us and they couldn't. We just had more money and more resources then they did. The stuff they did have they missmanaged. The real threat is no longer The USSR or now Russia its China. The Chinese have way more than half the worlds population and not enough food to feed them. There leaders would love a war, they have been itching at the opportunity for decades. The normal rules of war wouldn't apply to someone with that much of a numbers advantage.

Originally posted by Royal76
The Chinese have way more than half the worlds population and not enough food to feed them. There leaders would love a war, they have been itching at the opportunity for decades. The normal rules of war wouldn't apply to someone with that much of a numbers advantage.

Thats and advantage? To me, that is a 'disadvantage'. Numbers dont matter much intodays military. Unless your occupying a nation. China lacks the conventional military might to wage an offensive like the US and other world military powers. They cant even take out lil ole taiwan... CMon! How would you go about supplying and resupplying that many ppl? How would/could you keep feeding that many ppl? Where would all the weapons come from? China can barely afford to equipp its current military populace. And most of the weapons that the PLA use today are out dated usually resulting in weapons that dont work. Not to mention an emabargo that would follow on china basically starving that nation. They already have over 700,000,000 'peasants'. People who are not feeling chinas economic boom. Much of these ppl are malnutriotioned with a conservative estimate of 300,000,000 chinese who drink contaminated water due to pollution on a massive scale. An estimated 70%-80% of chinas rivers and lakes are deemed 'hazardous' to drink and fish out of. Like thats going to stop all the peasant farmers from providing food for there familys. Much become infested with disaeses resulting in death.

Chinas infrastructure is a joke. Inferior building materials and an over-riding attitude that everything MUST BE DONE NOW! And at the lowest possible price in the fastest possible time. Which usually results in buildings that are going up fast in china, are coming down just as fast as they came up. Just look at the citys of china. Look at how fast they come up. Just to put China’s building boom into perspective, in 1985, the city of Shanghai only had what? 1 single tall building, 20 years later, it now has at least 3,000 HIGH-RISE buildings with another 2,000 planned. No wonder the entire city (Shanghai is built on a drained swamp) is sinking at an astonishing rate of 1.5cm per year.

China's economy is very similar to its buildings. (looks good on the outside, but have you actually seen how its built)
People are giveing the chinese WAY to much credit these days. And for what exactly, I dont have a clue. Maybe its that population of theres!

Im not saying China doesnt have the potential to become a major world power (Hyperpower) say in a good 50-60 years from now. Im just stateing that china has a long ways to go before that happens. Lets not count our chickens before they hatch.

[edit on 063131p://3101pm by semperfoo]