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Chisolm v. Georgia
There is a third sense, in which the term sovereign is frequently used, and which it is very material to trace and explain, as it furnishes a basis for what I presume to be one of the principal objections against the jurisdiction of this Court over the State of Georgia. In this sense, sovereignty is derived from a feudal source; and like many other parts of that system so degrading to man, still retains its influence over our sentiments and conduct, though the cause, by which that influence was produced, never extended to the American States. The accurate and well informed President Henault, in his excellent chronological abridgment of the History of France, tells us, that, about the end of the second race of Kings, a new kind of possession was acquired, under the name of Fief. The Governors of Cities and Provinces usurped equally the property of land, [2 U.S. 419, 458] and the administration of justice; and established themselves as proprietary Seigniors over those places, in which they had been only civil magistrates or military officers. By this means, there was introduced into the State a new kind of authority, to which was assigned the appellation of sovereignty*. In process of time the feudal system was extended over France, and almost all the other nations of Europe: And every Kingdom became, in fact, a large fief. Into England this system was introduced by the conqueror: and to this era we may, probably, refer the English maxim, that the King or sovereign is the fountain of Justice. But, in the case of the King, the sovereignty had a double operation. While it vested him with jurisdiction over others, it excluded all others from jurisdiction over him. With regard to him, there was no superior power; and, consequently, on feudal principles, no right of jurisdiction. '*The law, says Sir William Blackstone, ascribes to the King the attribute of sovereignty: he is sovereign and independent within his own dominions; and owes no kind of objection to any other potentate upon earth. Hence it is, that no suit or action can be brought against the King, even in civil matters; because no Court can have jurisdiction over him: for all jurisdiction implies superiority of power.' This last position is only a branch of a much more extensive principle, on which a plan of systematic despotism has been lately formed in England, and prosecuted with unwearied assiduity and care. Of this plan the author of the Commentaries was, if not the introducer, at least the great supporter. He has been followed in it by writers later and less known; and his doctrines have, both on the other and this side of the Atlantic,been implicitly and generally received by those, who neither examined their principles nor their consequences, The principle is, that all human law must be prescribed by a superior. This principle I mean not now to examine. Suffice it, at present to say, that another principle, very different in its nature and operations, forms, in my judgment, the basis of sound and genuine jurisprudence; laws derived from the pure source of equality and justice must be founded on the CONSENT of those, whose obedience they require. The sovereign, when traced to his source, must be found in the man.
[...]
Concerning the prerogative of Kings, and concerning the sovereignty of States, much has been said and written; but little has been said and written concerning a subject much more dignified and important, the majesty of the people. The mode of expression, which I would substitute in the place of that generally used, is not only politically, but also (for between true liberty and true taste there is a close alliance) classically more correct. On the mention of Athens, a thousand refined and endearing associations rush at once into the memory of the scholar, the philosopher, and the patriot. When Homer, one of the most correct, as well as the oldest of human authorities, enumerates the other nations of Greece, whose forces acted at the siege of Troy, he arranges them under the names of their different Kings or Princes: But when he comes to the Athenians, he distinguishes them by the peculiar appellation of the PEOPLE* of Athens. The well known address used by Demosthenes, when he harrangued and animated his assembled countrymen, was 'O Men of Athens.' With the strictest propriety, therefore, classical and political, our national scene opens with the most magnificent object, which the nation could present. 'The PEOPLE of the United States' are the first personages introduced. Who were those people? They were the citizens of thirteen States, each of which had a separate Constitution and Government, and all of which were connected together by articles of confederation. To the purposes of public strength and felicity, that confederacy was totally inadequate. A requisition on the several States terminated its Legislative authority: Executive or Judicial authority it had none. In order, therefore, to form a more perfect union, to establish justice, to ensure domestic tranquillity, to provide for common defence, and to secure the blessings of liberty, those people, among whom were the people of Georgia, ordained and established the present Constitution. By that Constitution Legislative power is vested, Executive power is vested, Judicial power is vested.
The question now opens fairly to our view, could the people of those States, among whom were those of Georgia, bind those States, and Georgia among the others, by the Legislative, Executive, and Judicial power so vested? If the principles, on which I have founded myself, are just and true; this question must unavoidably receive an affirmative answer. If those States were the work of those people; those people, and, that I may apply the case closely, the people of Georgia, in particular, [2 U.S. 419, 464] could alter, as they pleased, their former work: To any given degree, they could diminish as well as enlarge it. Any or all of the former State- powers, they could extinguish or transfer. The inference, which necessarily results, is, that the Constitution ordained and established by those people; and, still closely to apply the case, in particular by the people of Georgia, could vest jurisdiction or judicial power over those States and over the State of Georgia in particular.
Originally posted by orangetom1999
Nevertheless ..watch closely for this fingerprint...Divine Right of Kings. It is coming back slowly and in different and subtle guises. More power and authority to the Federal..and taken from the States and the People. Do not be ignorant of t his fingerprint.
I have already pointed out to you the significance of the 17th Amendment in breaking the power of the individual states. This struggle continues.
Originally posted by smallpeeps
Originally posted by orangetom1999
Nevertheless ..watch closely for this fingerprint...Divine Right of Kings. It is coming back slowly and in different and subtle guises. More power and authority to the Federal..and taken from the States and the People. Do not be ignorant of t his fingerprint.
I have already pointed out to you the significance of the 17th Amendment in breaking the power of the individual states. This struggle continues.
I love your work Orangetom, but I don't follow you. This court case clearly describes the kingly basis of sovereignty. It also says very plainly that at the time of the revolution, the sovereignty devolved onto the people. Don't you think that devolving is a crucial moment? At that moment, we became sovereign with no authority except that which we give our power to.
The thirteenth and fourteenth are where America really changed, right after the civil war. All Americans became voluntary slaves. That's why the 14th amendment is phrased the way it is: "All person born OR naturalized AND subject to the jurisdiction" ..Notice how that's two conditions you must meet: Born AND subject to. Why would someone born into a sovereign state of being, choose to subject themselves? But that's what it says because the process has to be semi-concealed.
There will be another constitutional convention in the future, and John Jay's words will be known by all Americans in that future. The point is this: Do not ever expect to government to allow or disallow guns. Stop caring about what the government says about guns because the founding documents and court cases say that we as Americans are joint tenants in sovereignty just as he said.
Originally posted by jaguarmike
www.savethemales.ca
Please check out that site- great information!
Originally posted by jaguarmike
So I take it, you believe there is no reconciling this problem?
When you research the different industries that have been attacked over time, youll understand why all he cared to speak of was gossip and celebrity issues.
www.savethemales.ca
Please check out that site- great information!
Originally posted by djohnsto77
Originally posted by jaguarmike
www.savethemales.ca
Please check out that site- great information!
Now that's a URL I haven't visited recently. I don't really like the feminist agenda, but I think this guy goes way too far and is a paranoid misogynist.
posted by orangetom1999
“ . . the issue has always been: Is the Federal Government Sovereign or do the States and people actually have more power over Federal Government. [Edited by Don W]
“ . . the concept left out of "Chisolm vs Georgia" is the concept of the Divine Right of Kings. This is a concept omitted from most of what passes for history today. It is what the English Civil War was fought over and the reason over which King Charles I was beheaded. Is a King’s power descended from God? Is the [monarch’s] power absolute . . unlimited? Does his crown come from God? From this history extends our concept of "Separation of Church and State."
Originally posted by orangetom1999
THESE PEOPLE ARE NOT ROYALTY!!!!!
THat you know they made slaves of all of us is really something. Most people dont know or have a clue. They altered the juristictions here too. More Federal control. Great that you know this.
Slavery ..this is also what a olde timer told and taught me about the Civil War and what came out of it. They made slaves out of all of us and without the knowlege of most Americans.
Curious if you know what it means Smallpeeps to have a Social Security Number in regards to Soverignty. Or what the word Person means verses the word Individual at law??
The issue of Divine right of Kings and the English Civil war was the basis for the American Revolution. Did a people have a right to turn on thier King when it became obvious that the King had broken precident or the Law.
[...]
The founders had it correct..but after the Civil War..hijackers came in and took over. They really moved fast after the turn of the century ..1900 and made changes unto this very day.
posted by smallpeeps
I see no reason why I cannot quote John Jay here in his landmark case, Chisolm v. Georgia, 2 U.S. 419, 1793.
They were the citizens of thirteen States . . To the purposes of public strength and felicity, that [Articles of] confederacy was totally inadequate. A requisition on the several States terminated its Legislative authority: Executive or Judicial authority it had none. In order, therefore, to form a more perfect union, to establish justice, to ensure domestic tranquillity, to provide for common defense, and to secure the blessings of liberty, those people . . ordained and established the present Constitution. By that Constitution Legislative power is vested, Executive power is vested, Judicial power is vested . . “ [Edited by Don W]
The Court held that Article 3, Section 2 of the Constitution abrogated the States' sovereign immunity and granted federal courts the affirmative power to hear disputes between private citizens and States.
posted by smallpeeps
But, the OP is asking about the second amendment and what it guarantees him. I'd say it was worded to be unclear on purpose . . “ [Edited by Don W]
“ . . as was the fourteenth amendment [worded to be unclear on purpose]. Masters of English wrote the ConUS such that you have to really look at each word to grasp the point . . “
14th Amendment. Section. 1. All persons born or naturalized in the United States and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.”
Posted by SmallPeeps
Similarly do Americans bond with the government via Social Security, Medicare, Unemployment Insurance, etc. This bonding is burned red white and blue in their heads. [Edited by Don W]
Person = We would think that the word person is pretty simple to define. We immediately conjure a picture of a human being. But not in court! Corporations are called persons all the time in legalese. Your distinction is well said: the human being is the individual. [Edited by Don W]
posted by orangetom1999
From the very founding of this country the issue has always been the people and states having power over the Federal Government or the Federal Government having power over the States and People. [Edited by Don W]
posted by jaguarmike
I had a debate with my friends regarding the 2nd amendment. My view was that we are entitled the same grade of weapon as any potential threat or potential enemy. His argument was that no one is entitled to any weapons under the 2nd . . the only reason we are able to have them is because it would be too hard to take them away and explain how the law was misinterpreted. He believes it applies solely to state militias, such as the National Guard.
So, what does the 2nd amendment really mean? Only State Militias? Is the National Guard the only militia allowed? I'm confused, please clarify. [Edited by Don W]