The fireball down the elevator myth.

As we know, several witnesses speak of rubble and explosions in the basement of wtc1 at the time of the first plane hitting.

Deranged debunkers have tried to pass this off as fuel travelling down elevator shafts and a freight elevator falling and hitting the basement levels.

This paper thoroughly debunks that ridiculous explanation:

www.studyof911.com...

I suggest out debunking friends read it, then explain the rubble in the basement.

There is an ongoing discussion on this.

The author of the paper has already conceded that there was a second elevator going into the basements from the impact zones.

www.abovetopsecret.com...

An honestly, could you please tone down the hostility?

[edit on 11-11-2006 by LeftBehind]

There is no second elevator going from the impact zone down to the b4 level, Left Behind.

Im not being hostile.

Just asking questions and DEMANDING answers.

You sure about that Val?

Originally posted by bsbray11

Originally posted by ashmok
What your documents show is that there was one elevator that serviced all the floors, yes: Car #50. However there was another, Car #6, that served "B1-5, 44, 75, 77-107" ( wtc.nist.gov... ), so running from the impact point down to the basement. Might that not be relevant?

Yes, it is relevant, and thanks for this information, ashmok. That article has been updated accordingly.

And look, Bsbray apparently updated his article accordingly.

No, Left Behind, I swear if you would just take time to read. It ran to B1 - NOT B2, B3, B4, B5 or B6...just B1.

There was just ONE elevator that ran from above the impact zone down to B4. Car #50 - the one Mr. Griffith was in at the time of impact.

Car 50, and Car 6

NIST page 122

Cars 6 and 50 could have fallen all the way to the pit in the sub-basement level, and car 50 in WTC 1 was reported to have done so.

What was that you said about taking the time to read?





[edit on 11-11-2006 by LeftBehind]

Originally posted by Valhall
No, Left Behind, I swear if you would just take time to read. It ran to B1 - NOT B2, B3, B4, B5 or B6...just B1.

There was just ONE elevator that ran from above the impact zone down to B4. Car #50 - the one Mr. Griffith was in at the time of impact.

Thats what I thought.

Several debunkers have conceded the point to me. I asked them if they thought this rubble was therefor an anomly worthy of investigation, but they didnt seem to think so.

Also from Bsbray's paper, posted by the op.

Here, NIST states that elevator car six had access to the basements and impacted floors, making it and the main freight elevator the sole elevators of WTC1 with such access.

Reading, it's a good thing.

You're just being silly now. You've been right in the middle of a thread that the NIST has been quoted on this issue and you're acting like you have no knowledge of it. Are you intentionally trying to spread false information, LB? Because at this point, that's damned sure what it looks like.

From the very quote you used in your own post:

quote: Originally posted by ashmok
What your documents show is that there was one elevator that serviced all the floors, yes: Car #50. However there was another, Car #6, that served "B1-5, 44, 75, 77-107" ( wtc.nist.gov... ), so running from the impact point down to the basement. Might that not be relevant?

From page 72 of the pdf (numbered page 34 of the report):

• Car #5: B1-5, 7, 9-40, 44
• Car #6: B1-5, 44, 75, 77-107
• Car #17: B1-1, 41, 43-78
• Car #48: B1-7, 9-40
• Car #49: B1-5, 41-74
• Car #50: B6-108
• Car #99: 107-11016

Car #6 went to B1. Car #50 was the only elevator to go from B6 up past the impact zones. Take it up with NIST if you don't believe it.

Nevermind

[edit on 11-11-2006 by LeftBehind]

That does not mean that the shafts did not go down to the basements which NIST clearly states that they did.

Cars 6 and 50 could have fallen all the way to the pit in the sub-basement level, and car 50 in WTC 1 was reported to have done so.

[edit on 11-11-2006 by LeftBehind]

Yeah, B1. Don't think for one minute LB that I'm going to stop arguing this point. If you're not going to at least take note of the data collected when discussing these points, I'm going to have to put you on ignore. Because the whole point of trying to collect data concerning the WTC (at least for me) is so I don't have to argue the same point over and over.

I mean this is absolutely ridiculous on your part. You've been repetitively given what the NIST report states about Car #6 going only to B1 level and you're choosing to make a false statement when you know it's not true.

Well, ignore me if you have to, but the shafts still went into the basements.

Bsbray acknowledges this in his paper, is he spreading misinformation too?

Here, NIST states that elevator car six had access to the basements and impacted floors, making it and the main freight elevator the sole elevators of WTC1 with such access.

Why don't you put him on ignore as well.

I find it disturbing that you continue to push the falsehood that the elevator shafts could not have continued, especially in the upper part of a zone as the top basement elevators would be.

Until you can prove otherwise all we have is the NIST saying that some were stacked and some were not.

NIST plainly says that they were stacked in the upper parts of a zone, as the top of the basement zone would be.

And I find it disturbing that you don't even read what others are saying.

There was an explosion/collapse in the B4 level. There was only one elevator that ran from above the impact point down to the B4 level - Car #50. Mr. Griffith and his passenger were in that elevator at the time of the impact. The cable was sheared and they fell about 15 floors before the brake system caught them. They did not fall to the basement level but were still in the 15-16 floor range when the brakes caught. They got out with minor injuries.

So there is no elevator shaft to communicate an FAE to the B4 level.

bsbray has not once stated the false statement you are making. He modifed his page to reflect the finding that other elevators went to the B1 level. If there was damage on the B1 level (which I believe I remember reading there was, but I'm going from memory), that gives another way that damage could have occurred. But it does not give a way for the B4 level damage to occur because only Car #50 went that low.

Oh I read it, it continues to ignore the possibility of the shafts being continous.

What bank of elevators was 50 in, and how many of the shafts next to it had stacked elevators thoughout the building?

This would answer at least partially the question of how many shafts went that low, which is really the question since stacked elevators don't tell us how far the shafts went.

Actually I never clarified that car 6 only went to B1, but I guess I should, since so much was reported below that level.

Well, this is what we have so far on stacked versus no stacked (or vertical communication, that is).

None of the 24 local elevators on each of the three vertical zones could communicate with the 24 elevators above them because NIST clearly states they were capped off with continuous cement slabs between each zone.

Car #50 wasn't stacked on anything because it went to every floor.

The question lies with this statement:

an additional 7 elevators serving primarily the sub-grade basement levels.

I can't find anything that gives the location for these 7 elevators. Three of them couldn't be stacked under the 24 local elevators on the concourse because NIST states

three that brought people from the subterranean levels to the lobby,

so they had to be located some where other than directly below the bank of 24 at the Concourse. Those three also could not be stacked under any of the express elevators that ran from the B1 level up (because then they couldn't access the Lobby level). They also couldn't be stacked under any express elevator starting at the Lobby level and going up (because then they couldn't access the Lobby level). So those three had to be in independent shafts...we can eliminate them as candidates to share any common elevator shafts.

And then the other four I can't find any additional information on. The only way these four could be stacked under another elevator shaft is if they only accessed sublevel floors (i.e. didn't go to the lobby level). So the question becomes what sublevel floors did they access, and where were they located?

The good news is - I believe we've accounted for every elevator.

If NIST is correct, then we've definitely accounted for all elevators going from the impacted floors to ANY basement floor, because NIST explicitly states that cars 6 and 50 were the ONLY TWO to reach the basement from the impacted floors. And we've established that car 6 only reached B1, whereas explosions were reported BELOW that floor.

From page 122 (160 of the PDF) of NIST NCSTAR 1-7:

Cars 6 and 50 could have fallen all the way to the pit in the sub-basement level, and car 50 in WTC 1 was reported to have done so.

wtc.nist.gov...


And we know that car 50 did not behave as they suggest.

The Studyof article's been updated again too, to reflect car 6 only reaching B1, and explosions being reported below that level. A video interview with Rodriguez linked to by that article also has a guy on there (writing a book on Rodriguez, I think) saying that he'd talked to another WTC employee reporting an explosion below him, from sublevel B4! The machine shop Pecoraro describes appears to have been on sublevel B2. And then there were first responder transcripts of destruction on sublevels below B1, too, right Val? So definitely something beyond what cars 6 and 50 could've done.

The Naudet brothers film sheds some light on this.

Upon entering the North Tower, screams were heard to Jules right. There were several people on fire, having been engulfed by the jet fuel that shot down the elevator shaft. This footage was not edited out of the documentary because it was never filmed in the first place as Jules thought it would have been disrespectful to do so.

To me it seems like explosives would shred someone to peices before it ignited them.

I think jet fuel coming down the elevator shafts is the most respectable answer for these people who sadly burned to death on that fateful morning.

If someone would like to suggest otherwise I am open to suggestions.