WTC 7 photo's, all day on 9/11

This argument is crazy! We will never agree on 9/11 on this forum.

I will say this though, I hve been taught everthing a Firefighter needs to know about structural collapse. That buiding had most of its damage on the side facing the towers. No way would it have fallen straight down, it would have biased towards the towers. there is no doubt about this, unless my text books and instructors all lied to me.

They teach us this so we know where to escape to, and what to look out for in case of collapse. I am an expert in this matter!! This building would have severly biased its fall towards its weekest support. ALL THREE WOULD HAVE! I cant tell you how they pulled them, but all three were pulled.

343 Firefighters staked there lives on those bulildings being safe. Most of my buddies are so freaked out by this mess we are in they are stockpiling amuntion. These are firefighters afraid of the Governement they work for! The only ones that dont think the buildings fell ffom explosives are the Christian right wing firefighters.

Have some respect for those 343 firefighters that knew those building woudnt fall. I hate these 9/11 threads, they really piss me off!

NUFF SAID

Originally posted by deltaboy
Think of it this way, you believe that the top floors should never be able to take down the rest of the building below because it outmasses the floors on the top. Well that makes sense....after all, the bottom floors aren't doing anything while the top floors are moving.

So what? You really have no grasp of basic physics if you're telling me that the movement or lack thereof of an object impacts how much energy is required to destroy it.

And any info you can link me that the top floors are lighter than the bottom would be appreciated. Because I always assumed that the whole building would be lighter from ground up.

HowardRoark has some images illustrating how the core columns, for example, were down-sized to I-beams on the uppermost floors. All of this is buried within the NIST Report.


Realizing that you could be debunked on this in a split second if someone were to come up with the relevant information, consider this:

The lower floors had more load to carry. Therefore, there would have to be a stronger structure to carry it. Seeing as how the whole structure was steel, guess what? The solution is more steel (and concrete) lower down.

As the building becomes taller, the loads of each floor in supporting the floors above becomes increasingly smaller, thus requiring less steel for support. This is why the core columns were down-sized. Maintaining the same dimensions of columns would only INCREASE loads for the lower floors unnecessarily!

Does that make sense? You don't even have to agree, really, because even the more intelligent 'debunkers' will set you straight here.

Yes falling mass represents kinetic energy. Its possible that from the videos we have seen that somehow the top floors are dragging and causing the other floors at the bottom to start collapsing as well, before the debris goes outward. We cannot see the through the debris to reach a conclusion.

Unless the total collapse times are greater than 19 seconds (which, it is generally accepted, they were not), then the collapse velocities did not appreciably change, and thus there could have been no real deceleration, save what would be allowed within a small margin based from the fact that we can't be 100% exact.

Jim Hoffman times one of the collapses based on major media video here: 911research.wtc7.net...

He tells you how to do it so you can do it yourself. After you derive a distance and a time, you can figure velocity, since velocity is derived from distance over time. Then, you can continue this velocity theoretically to see how long it would take for the building to reach the ground. It would take about 18 seconds if I remember correctly. Thus, if this collapse slowed, it escaped the attention of everyone in the world, because even the revised collapse times (revised from the 9/11 Commission Report, FEMA, NIST, etc., which are all either horribly wrong or irrelevant in the first place) show around 16-18 seconds tops.

I don't know what deceration is, never heard of that word.

Just to make it clear for you, this was a typing error, and the intended word was "deceleration". More properly, the term would be "negative acceleration", since acceleration is ANY change in velocity.

I will admit that when debris starts falling outward, the remainder of the debris loses energy,

Why? Because of air resistance? Imagine what thousands of tons of steel and concrete would do to halt the kinetic energy of a falling mass.

Also remember TRANSFER OF MOMENTUM, in which the momentum of a falling object is automatically transferred into a body when it collides. Like those balls on strings you've probably seen, all arranged in a row, and when you raise and drop one ball, it comes back down and smacks the others and causes the one on the other end to move out and away.

Similarly, if the upper floors were dropped onto the lower floors, rather than immediately destroy whatever they touched, the momentum would be transferred down the buildings to the foundations. That's not to say that damage would not result, but it would not be the FULL FORCE of all of that weight concentrated onto a very small area, as you seem to imagine it.

HOWEVER, the floors that are in contact with the falling debris (causing the chain reaction) would replace that ones lost before it finally touches the ground.

Not only is there no evidence of this happening (ejected debris being immediately made up), it also makes no sense, and also does not account for where the additional energy must have come from to keep the collapse going without slowing down.

Can I ask, just so I know, when the last time was that you happened to take any courses on physics or remotely related fields of engineering?

LoneGunMan...

Did you know that the FDNY used a transit to determine that WTC 7 was moving before collapse ?

Did you also know that the NYPD reported that the Towers were moving as well before their collapse ?

Wait a min...

That buiding had most of its damage on the side facing the towers.

So you're saying that there WAS damage to the South Side ???



[edit on 8-11-2006 by Jedi_Master]

Originally posted by Jedi_Master

That buiding had most of its damage on the side facing the towers.

So you're saying that there WAS damage to the South Side ???

Are you kidding me? Of course there was damage. Was is exact damage the 360 degrees is the question. Have YOU ever witnessed a building collapse in real life? Sorry but it just doesnt happen like it did on 9/11. If it ever happens again I will eat my fricken nomax!

I dont want to discuss 9/11 with people not of the brotherhood, I ignore these thread s for a reason. You have no clue what scene safety is, we dont search a building unless it is safe. When we go down we ignore the public and help our brothers, that is why scene safety is so important. We do YOU no good when 343 pass devices are beeping. This gets my blood pressure too high, I need to stay away.

I only peeped my head in here because HowardRoark pm'd me about a firefighter related question that was brought up on this thread.

Goodbye 9/11 threads.... Remember the 343! Never forget the sound of those pass devices, that was the sound of too many brave souls gone.

Originally posted by LoneGunMan



Are you kidding me? Of course there was damage. Was is exact damage the 360 degrees is the question. Have YOU ever witnessed a building collapse in real life? Sorry but it just doesn't happen like it did on 9/11. If it ever happens again I will eat my fricken nomax!

I dont want to discuss 9/11 with people not of the brotherhood, I ignore these thread s for a reason. You have no clue what scene safety is, we dont search a building unless it is safe. When we go down we ignore the public and help our brothers, that is why scene safety is so important. We do YOU no good when 343 pass devices are beeping. This gets my blood pressure too high, I need to stay away.

I only peeped my head in here because HowardRoark pm'd me about a firefighter related question that was brought up on this thread.

Goodbye 9/11 threads.... Remember the 343! Never forget the sound of those pass devices, that was the sound of too many brave souls gone.

No I'm not kidding you...are you aware that there are some of those on the "truth movement" that say that there was no damage to the south side of WTC 7 ?

Have I ever witnessed a building collapse? yes I have although it was a wood building ( my 3 story house about 30 yrs ago )...

Sorry I'm not of the "brotherhood" but I'm a citizen of the USofA...

And...

I'm sorry you took me wrong...but I DO REMEMBER THE 343 everyday of my life...

Thanks man keep on keeping on...

[edit on 8-11-2006 by Jedi_Master]

from this thread :

www.abovetopsecret.com...

to this thread, that is happening on a much too small scale, if no one does this, all these threads are becoming loose ends.

Tie them together by posting other threads with relevant information, that way you really create an interactive reading experience for all the older and especially the newer members and non-member readers.

That way you will increase the non-member interest to join the discussions by subscribing to ATS.


EDIT : another interesting link :
www.abovetopsecret.com...

[edit on 12/11/06 by LaBTop]

www.wtc7.net...

It describes in full detail Howard Roark's famous pressurized diesel line in WTC 7.
Quotes from www.wtc7.net... are in blue text !

5.4 Building Loads

The degree of impact damage to the south facade could not be documented. However, damage was evident from review of photographs and video records.
So, there were photographs and videos of the impact damage to the south facade, but the damage could not be documented. Why? Surely, the photographs and videos were "documented" evidence in their own right.
The number of fires observed after the collapse of WTC 1 also makes it likely that debris impact damage occurred in a number of locations.
One could equally validly claim that: The number of fires observed after the collapse of WTC 1 makes it likely that fires were deliberately set.

An array of fuels typically associated with offices was distributed throughout much of the building. In addition, WTC 7 contained 10 transformers at street level, 12 transformers on the 5th floor, and 2 dry transformers on the 7th floor. The Con Ed substation contained (outside the building footprint) eight 30-foot-wide transformers that supplied 13-kilovolt ampere (kVA) power to the 6th floor of the building. Fuel oil (ranging from diesel to #4) was provided for the generators serving OEM, SSB, Silverstein Properties, and the U.S. Secret Service. Table 5.2 shows where the generators, fuel tanks, pumps, and risers were located for the various occupants. There was also a Con Ed 4-inch-diameter gas line with 0.25 pounds per square inch (psi) (low) pressure going into WTC 7 for cooking purposes. Early news reports had indicated that a high pressure, 24-inch gas main was located in the vicinity of the building; however, this proved not to be true.

As described in Section 5.6.2, the sequence of the WTC 7 collapse is consistent with an initial failure that occurred internally in the lower floors on the east side of the building.
No it isn't. It is consistent with failure of all weight supporting columns simultaneously.
The interest in fuel oil is therefore directed at the parts of the fuel oil distribution system having the potential of supporting a fire in the lower floors on the east side of the building. The risers for the fuel distribution system were in one of the two utility shafts in the west end of the building. One exception was the American Express Corporation, which had a generator with a 275-gallon tank on the west end of the 8th floor. This tank was the sole supply for the American Express generator and was not connected to any other fuel oil source. The 275-gallon tank was filled by bringing containers of fuel oil to the tank and transferring the oil into the tank. Except for the part of the diesel oil distribution system serving the SSB generators, all of the generators were located at the west end, with relatively short horizontal distribution piping.

The SSB system involved three separate generator locations on the 5th floor: three generator sets in the southwest corner of the building, two in the northwest section, and four in the northeast section. The distribution pipe was double-wall welded black iron with leak detection between the pipes. The outer pipe was at least 4 inches in diameter and the inner pipe at least 2-1/2 inches. The pipe traversed most of the length of the 5th floor immediately north of a concrete masonry wall running most of the length of the floor in an east-west direction. At the east end of the 5th floor and to the south of the wall was a 1- to 2-story mechanical equipment room. Transfer Trusses 1 and 2 were located in this room. The east end of Truss 1 was supported by a truss element that ran perpendicular (i.e., north-south) to the main east-west portions of the truss. There was a set of double doors opening from the mechanical room to the area containing the four generator sets previously mentioned. The fuel oil distribution pipe ran above this door several feet to the north of the masonry wall. The type, quality, and hardware on the door set are unknown. The position of the door (i.e., open or closed) at the time of the incident is also unknown. Also, no information was available in regard to the size of the undercut on the door.

Link : www.wtc7.net...

The mechanical room containing the four generator sets is outlined in pink in the upper right corner. The mechanical equipment room containing trusses 1 and 2 has also been outlined in pink. Both rooms have been assumed smaller than they actually were in order to later calculate a maximum temperature that trusses 1 and 2 might have obtained in any fire as described by the "5th Floor Scenario" presented below. To this end we calculate the area of the 2 rooms to be a minimum of 8175 square feet. The concrete masonry wall has also been marked in pink. The fuel oil distribution pipe has been marked in blue.

Note that it was next to impossible for the debris from World Trade Centers One and Two to breach the nominated fuel oil distribution pipe, as it was in the northern half of the building and was protected to the south by a concrete masonry wall and the outer perimeter wall. Since the debris from the towers would have hit WTC 7 from the south, it would have had to breach at least two walls and smash its way through more than half the building.

PLEASE, read the whole article of the people of www.wtc7.net... , they deserve a lot of attention for their hard work.

So, can we agree on the HIGH impossibility grade, of a pressurized diesel oil line breakage of that famous diesel line Howard and friends keep coming up with?

Especially since we can see no heavy dark black smoke emitted from low down the south face during all day videos from that WTC 7 south face, which would be indicative of burning diesel sources.

As I and several firefighters present on the scene said so many times before, most of the smoke seemingly coming from the south face was in fact originating from raging fires in WTC 5 and 6, and from the debris pile of WTC 1.
And was sucked to the south face by the clearly existing strong wind vortex behind WTC 7's south face.

[edit on 12/11/06 by LaBTop]

It seems that when you use the color=red function in the Post or Edit window, nothing works anymore. This is happening to me for more than a year now.
Someone able to fix it at admin level? Thanks in advance.

And as you can see in above post text, it still doesn't work for blue text either.

[edit on 12/11/06 by LaBTop]

Very long preparation time for normal blasts.
Well, see for yourself what disinfo that was :

Loiseaux lightning fast installation of blasting materials in Jeddah Saudi Arabia

Half of the 17-story Sheikh A. Alakl Apartment Building in Jeddah, Saudi Arabia collapsed when portions of the new reinforced concrete facility were overloaded during final stages of construction. At the request of Bechtel, Controlled Demolition Incorporated’s team mobilized to the site in less than 24 hours, prepared the central-core, flat slab, reinforced concrete structure in another 27 hours and put the balance of the building on the ground with absolute safety just 96 hours after the start of demolition preparations.

Quot erat demonstrandum :
Five year long fairy tales debunked, about the suspected (and most of the time given as solid fact) very long preparation time needed for a major standard performed electronic blast. With blast cords, wires etc, so, NO radiocontrolled demolition, which is far faster to be set up.

Please read also on the 2000 Commonwealth Avenue demolition in Boston in 1971 :
demolition in Boston in 1971

Workers entered the building the next morning to assess the damage. Without warning, a progressive collapse began and stripped out half of the structural slabs. Hundreds of tons of debris was left hanging from reinforcing elements on the south side of the central elevator and stair well core, taking the lives of four construction workers.
-SNIP-
Controlled Demolition Incorporated worked for three days to prepare the structure for implosion. Site constraints on three sides of the structure meant that the rigid elevator core had to be dealt with independently of the flat slab construction which had been temporarily shored by the Boston Fire Department. Preparation of the structure included a combination of explosives demolition applications on reinforced shear walls in the core, concrete columns in the portion of the building remaining and timber shoring placed under those slabs after the initial failure. Controlled Demolition Incorporated orchestrated a carefully planned progressive collapse that first stripped the floors off of the central core and then felled the rigid central core into an open area to the rear of the site.

Sadly there are no videos or photos of these 2 collapses on the CDI site to find.

One thing is clear, however. If you blast the rigid central core, the rest will follow, even if you do not blast away the surrounding structures.

Like we saw on 9/11. A military style prepared false flag operation, with some minor faults, like very far blasts spouting out the tower faces very far down the blast fronts.

As anybody can see now, preparations made in the week or weekend before 9/11 are not at all far fetched.
Especially if not electronic blast caps were used, but radiographic ones.

Even another sophisticated form of ignition can have been used, like very high Mhz vibrations induced in the core collumns.

Do not underestimate the professionality of army trained (and funded) groups of demolition experts.

The first sign for many of us, that rogue groups within the US administration were overplaying their hands.

See first this sitepage from CDI :
www.controlled-demolition.com...

Then click and read the lowest link on above page :
Reference the Alfred P. Murrah Federal Building.

CDI crews worked on a fast-track basis to prepare the structure for subsequent explosives placement. Less than 150 pounds of explosives placed in 420 locations was used to fell the structure.

It is obvious that all traces of false flag operations had to be destructed as fast as possible, in combination with the usual psychological warfare techniques.
So the same perpetraitors played and still keep playing the usual patriotism card.

The bombs went off on April 19th, 1995, and the implosion by CDI was at 7:00 am on Wednesday, May 24, 1995, the remains of the building that was the target of, at that date, America's deadliest domestic terrorist attack crumbled neatly in seven (7) seconds.

Quite an abnormal hurry, five weeks, to get rid of too much evidence getting unearthed by several suspicious and clearly becoming too nosy real patriots, like general Partin and friends.

See my post on the Alfred P. Murrah Federal Building in this thread :
www.abovetopsecret.com...
And my post on the Murrah building :
www.abovetopsecret.com...

quote: British bomb experts, with extensive experience dealing with terrorist truck-bombs, told McVeigh's attorney, Stephen Jones, that the ANFO bomb could not have done all of the damage to the Murrah Building.[54]Edward Zehr, "Turning Point: Resolving The Enigma of Oklahoma City," Washington Weekly, 11/18/96.
Nevertheless, the site was quickly demolished and covered over with concrete; the remains taken to a secure dump and buried. What was the government trying to hide? Nuclear Physicist Galen Winsor, General Ben Partin, and KPOC manager David Hall went to the building and disposal sites with radiation measuring equipment, but were kept away. They managed to gather some fragments anyway, and when they measured them with Winsor's NaI Scintillator detector, they registered radiation levels 50 percent higher than normal.[55]


quote: Then on March 20, 1996,Strategic Investment Newsletter reported that a Pentagon study had been leaked which backed up General Partin's analysis:

A classified report prepared by two independent Pentagon experts has concluded that the destruction of the federal building in Oklahoma City last April was caused by five separate bombs. The two experts reached the same conclusion for the same technical reasons. Sources close to the Pentagon study say Timothy McVeigh did play a role in the bombing but peripherally, as a "useful idiot." The multiple bombings have a Middle Eastern "signature," pointing to either Iraqi or Syrian involvement. [60]"A classified Pentagon study determines Oklahoma bombing was caused by more than one bomb," Strategic Investment Newsletter, 3/20/96.


quote: "Dr. Brian Espe, who was the sole survivor in the Department of Agriculture's fifth floor office, told the author he first "heard a rumbling noise."

According to these individuals' accounts, if the truck-bomb — the alleged sole bomb — had detonated first, how would they have felt a rumbing, had time to think about the situation, then dive under their desks? The resulting blast wave from the truck-bomb would have been immediate and total. Such an account could only be indicative of demolition charges placed inside the building.[65]David Hall, manager of KPOC-TV in Ponca City, who has done considerable investigation into the bombing, told me that two Southwestern Bell employees called him and claimed they had a surveillance tape that showed the Murrah Building shaking before the truck bomb detonated.

"The inside charges — demolition charges," said Cohen, "may have gone off first, and so the columns now started to collapse. Boy, that would produce one hell of a rumble, to put it mildly…." [66]Samuel Cohen, interview with author.

Five bombs were detonated, and not only that ANFAS loaded truck from McVeigh, the patsy who walked with open eyes in the trap set up for him by the agencies involved.

And still nearly 50% of the US populace believes the lies from its past and present administrations.

Do they really have no shimmer of doubt, or are they silently or loudly agreeing with the obvious path to modern global fascism and renewed Roman Empire style minimum-payed enslavement ?

The following remarks come from this site again :
www.wtc7.net...

and I agree with the following observations from the author :

the above is a very strange photograph. It has a number of features which immediately stand out as wrong.

* Firstly, we are told that there were fires on the floors 7, 8, 10, 11, 12, 19, 27 and 28, but the photo seems to have smoke pouring out of the windows on almost every floor.

* Secondly, the corner offices (except for the 27th and 28th floors) show no indication of fire on the west face of the building, but these very same corner offices appear to belch smoke from their south face windows.

* Thirdly, the north side of WTC 7 has few (if any) visible signs of fire at this time (for example, see Figure 5-20 below) so it seems quite impossible that the south side should be ablaze to the extent that the above photo would indicate.

All, in all, I think it is quite clear that either this photo has been faked, or it is actually a picture of the dust cloud from the collapse of WTC 1. I think the second option is more probable, as it fits all the facts and allows the "oh, it looks like we made a mistake, so sorry" excuse. The dust cloud has been given its peculiar shape by the breeze channeling through the gap between the Verizon building and WTC 7.

Any opposing or/contradictive views on above observations ?

I agree that the smoke coming only from the south face with no visible fire is quite odd, and definitely at odds with the official account claim of "raging fires". However, I disagree that it is the dust cloud. The settled dust and debris on the Winter Garden indicates that WTC1 has already collapsed much earlier by the time this photo was taken. The angle of the shadows confirms it was taken in the afternoon. Also, a fair volume of footage exists showing smoke coming out of the south face in line with what is seen in that photo. You can view the footage here:

www.studyof911.com...

See the section "Building 7 - Fires and Smoke" a third of the way down at the above link. One video even captures the south face front on in reasonable detail, yet no fires are visible at all, only smoke.

since it wasn't in the 3 points he mentioned.

And yes, we already had this discussion, cloud or not, months ago, and both agreed to disagree on this dustcloud thesis :

However, I disagree that it is the dust cloud. The settled dust and debris on the Winter Garden indicates that WTC1 has already collapsed much earlier by the time this photo was taken. The angle of the shadows confirms it was taken in the afternoon.

Originally posted by Labtop

Another suspected fairy tale 3 :

Very long preparation time for normal blasts.
Well, see for yourself what disinfo that was :

Those examples have no bearing on the WTC buildings.

The bulidings you cite were 17 and 16 story buildings, and don't have anywhere near the square footage per floor that either building 1 or 2 had.

This in no way contradicts the evidence that large buildings require longer prep times. Nor does a quick demolition in the open on a small buidling in any way parallell what is claimed to have been accomplished covertly in even one WTC tower.

Both of the cases you cite were already damaged and required immediate demolition, which is not the norm in controlled demolition.

Here are more examples of larger structures that took much longer, and none of these buildings come close to the size WTC towers.

www.controlled-demolition.com...

After two (2) months of preparation, CDI’s 13 person crew needed seven (7) days to place 1,590 linear shaped charges totaling 595 lb. of explosives on steel columns on 11 levels of the 27-story structure.

www.controlled-demolition.com...

CDI’s 12 person loading crew took twenty four days to place 4,118 separate charges in 1,100 locations on columns on nine levels of the complex. Over 36,000 ft of detonating cord and 4,512 non-electric delay elements were installed in CDI’s implosion initiation system, some to create the 36 primary implosion sequence and another 216 micro-delays to keep down the detonation overpressure from the 2,728 lb of explosives which would be detonated during the demolition.

Questions about WTC 7:

1) Can someone show me at least ONE photo/video of a "raging" fire in the 7?

2) Did the "major" facade damage to the 7 contribute to its implosion* and if so, can you post a link to an official source that concurs with this?

*5.6.2 Probable Collapse Sequence

The collapse of WTC 7 had a small debris field as the façade was pulled downward, suggesting an internal failure and implosion. - FEMA

Originally posted by LoneGunMan
343 Firefighters staked there lives on those bulildings being safe. Most of my buddies are so freaked out by this mess we are in they are stockpiling amuntion. These are firefighters afraid of the Governement they work for! The only ones that dont think the buildings fell ffom explosives are the Christian right wing firefighters.

NUFF SAID

These Christian firefighters wouldn't be buddies of friends of Israel would they? Gee I wonder who is wagging who's tail now? I mean they don't even recognize Christ but they get to control his followers.



Regarding collapsing of a building, you know much more than I but I have to agree that there is no way a building that is structurally compromised will fall straight down when it can tip first with NO RESISTANCE ACTING AGAINST THE MASS MOVEMENT.

It is just simple physics that is all.