U.S. Sealing its Borders?

Originally posted by forestlady
Remember what Ben Franklin said (paraphrasing) "Those who give up freedom for security deserve neither."

Forest,it is true that he said that. However,...do you think he ever envisioned a time when there would people aiming to kill hundreds of thousands of Americans with strategic placements of nuclear bombs? I doubt it.

[edit on 6-11-2006 by SpeakerofTruth]

Must be a sale on iron curtains.

Originally posted by SpeakerofTruth

Originally posted by forestlady
Remember what Ben Franklin said (paraphrasing) "Those who give up freedom for security deserve neither."

Forest,it is true that he said that. However,...do you think he ever envisioned a time when there would people aiming to kill hundreds of thousands of Americans with strategic placements of nuclear bombs? I doubt it.

[edit on 6-11-2006 by SpeakerofTruth]

I'm not following you Speaker, which nuclear bombs are you talking about? There were none found in Iraq or anywhere else that I know of. And there are better ways to deal with terrorism, such as figuring out the root cause and dealing with that. Terrorists dont come out of a vacuum for no reason at all. They are terrorists because they are desperate. America needs to look at its part in creating terrorism and even now, in Iraq we're creating more and more terrorists by the day.

But still, there is no good reason to try to keep Americans from traveling outside U.S. borders.

Originally posted by forestlady


And there are better ways to deal with terrorism, such as figuring out the root cause and dealing with that. Terrorists dont come out of a vacuum for no reason at all. They are terrorists because they are desperate. America needs to look at its part in creating terrorism and even now, in Iraq we're creating more and more terrorists by the day.

Root cause? You want the root cause?
The root cause is they want us to live the same way they do!! That is the root cause. Come on,forest, you are making it much more complicated than it is. If the media is to be believed, which I am not sure that it is, but given the information that we have, the root cause is simple.

Originally posted by ThePieMaN

If America is no longer the "land of the free" the want to come here will be a lot less. Why would people leave the same crap in their country to come to the same crap in our country?


Pie

No kidding, Pie. Its not like everyone will be banging down our doors, from overseas at least. Mexico? Oh, that's different! They're coming in by the thousands every day- business as usual.

I have read the Federal Register excerpts in which these proposals were made (as linked to earlier in this thread.) I am curious to know what the source of the original article's statement that these proposed changes will take effect on January 14, 2007 is. The word “January” does not appear in the Federal Register .pdf file. I am also wondering if there is any way to determine the status of these proposed changes, whether any action has been taken to enforce the proposal in the legislature, and what would have to happen before these rules take effect.

Would there need to be legislative passage of these changes? Are these merely formalities tantamount to in-agency rule changes for which legislative authority already exists? Is legislative authority even required? If so, are there any bills being debated, in subcommittees, being voted on, or that have already passed pertaining to these changes? Clarification regarding these issues would be enormously appreciated.

the possibility is there but it would have to be a severe change in the mindset of all the sheep in the us to let that happen.

Originally posted by forestlady

Did you not hear anything about the Military Commissions Act that was signed by Bush last month?

I read it before it was signed. You are misrepresenting what was in it. It did not give the Administrative Branch any new authority. It attempted to define that authority more completely. The President has always had that authority.

Why are so many willing to spin (lie about) the truth to protect the rights of criminals and terrorists. What is to be gained by allowing them free access to our country? Mexico is in a state of perpetual civil war and the Jihadists have made their intentions very clear. What part of wipe us of the face of the earth is so hard to understand? If you wanted to kill us how would you enter the US? If you wanted to sell drugs and commit crimes here, would you apply for citizenship and wait. Open borders only helps criminals and does nothing to law abiding people.

A complete shut down of the borders in the United States, a complete take over by the government, martial law, all of these things, they wouldn't work in the United States.

It's pretty safe to say that, currently, the United States government is the most powerful government in the world. But, they'd have the hardest time of a complete take over of the citizens out of any other government in the world.

We're pretty much the most free people in the world. That means, there's more for them to take away. I don't see our military co-operating with any type of hostile take over of Americans. These are the people they fight for. They don't fight for the government. Alot of them hate Bush already. This wouldn't work. You would see a war break out, politically and violently, between government and citizens/military. There, of course, will be some in the military who side with the government.

We may have a Civil War 2 developing. Maybe that's what the government wants. Maybe they've gotten a little full of themselves with their power. That will be a big mistake if they decide to do that. If there was a complete lock down of this country, I think what you'd see is 100+ million people fight to get their freedom back.

Originally posted by forestlady
In a country where habeas corpus and posse comitatus have been effectively repealed, it wouldn't be surprising if they restricted travel as well.

habeas corpus has not been repealed. that particular bill only applied to an

alien detained by the United States who has been determined by the United States to have been properly detained as an enemy combatant or is awaiting such determination.

NOT american citizens.

source


[edit on 6-11-2006 by snafu7700]

Why are so many willing to spin (lie about) the truth to protect the rights of criminals and terrorists.

Not criminals and terrorists, but alleged criminals or terrorists. And they can torture you, jail you without you knowing the ``proofs`` against you, if they even exists at all. Also, they can say you work for a foreign enemy, then you're an alien, then you have no Habeas Corpus. Anyway, when you legalise torture and supress habeas corpus, your going on the wrong path.

What is to be gained by allowing them free access to our country?

So your against the North American Union little Bush signed back in 2005?

Mexico is in a state of perpetual civil war and the Jihadists have made their intentions very clear.

Jihadists? There's isn't jihadists in Mexico, and if they were so dangerous, they would have blown something big in the US since 2001 for sure.

What part of wipe us of the face of the earth is so hard to understand?

Wipe you off the face of the earth? Sorry, but the entire planet want your government and people who support your government being wiped off the earth.

If you wanted to kill us how would you enter the US? If you wanted to sell drugs and commit crimes here, would you apply for citizenship and wait. Open borders only helps criminals and does nothing to law abiding people.

Agree. But they don't seem to enter the US, there's no terrorist attack in the US...

And remember that the neo-cons engineer 9/11, madrid and London.

Originally posted by DickBinBush
A complete shut down of the borders in the United States, a complete take over by the government, martial law, all of these things, they wouldn't work in the United States.

It's pretty safe to say that, currently, the United States government is the most powerful government in the world. But, they'd have the hardest time of a complete take over of the citizens out of any other government in the world.

Huh,... The people in the United States are probably the most blind folded people in the world. What gives you the idea that it would be hard for the U.S government to take over? Americans have a grave tendency to just "go with the flow." What in the hell gave you the idea that they are likely to finally wake up and start fighting the powers that be?

Why build a wall around a country to keep people in? How's this? The dollar slowly losing favour as the currency of choice mainly due to the massive trade deficit with China. A policy of raising interest rates to prop up the dollar finally runs out of steam as the money supply tightens and the economy runs into recession due to loss of internal demand. Property prices drop, consumers stop consuming. The recession deepens and unemplyment rises.
There is no option but to lower interest rates to try to stimulate the economy so the world money markets shy away from the dollar. The dollar drops further. China sees its dollar assets falling and tries to dump as many as it can before the value goes too low. The dollar goes into freefall. The dollar price of oil and raw materials sky rockets.
Companies collapse under the pressure, unemployment skyrockets, demand plumets. This is the spiral into hyperinflation and the only way out of the USA debt mountain. As the dollar falls in value, so does the the real value of the national debt. So the government prints more and more money and the dollar in your pocket is worth less and less. It means massive unemployment and serious potential for civil unrest and people wanting to leave the country. Excellent article at:

en.wikipedia.org...

What do you reckon?_javascript:icon('')
_javascript:icon('')

I don't see anything here that changes anything not already in effect, except time frames and the definition of departure.

This rule proposes to amend existing Bureau of Customs and Border Protection regulations concerning electronic manifest transmission requirements relative to passengers, crew members, and non-crew members traveling onboard international commercial flights and voyages. Under current regulations, air carriers must transmit to the Bureau of Customs and Border Protection (CBP), Department of Homeland Security (DHS), passenger manifest information for aircraft en route to the United States no later than 15 minutes after the departure of the aircraft. This proposed rule implements the Intelligence Reform and Terrorism Prevention Act of 2004 requirement that such information be provided to the government before departure of the aircraft. This proposed rule provides air
carriers a choice between transmitting complete manifests no later than 60-minutes prior to departure of the aircraft or transmitting manifest information on passengers as each passenger checks in for the flight, up to but no later than 15 minutes prior to departure. The rule also proposes to amend the definition of ‘‘departure’’ for aircraft to mean the moment the aircraft is pushed back from the gate. For vessel departures from the United States, the rule proposes transmission of passenger and crew manifests no later than 60 minutes prior to departure of the vessel.

frwebgate.access.gpo.gov

[edit on 2006/11/6 by GradyPhilpott]

Originally posted by Vitchilo
Not criminals and terrorists, but alleged criminals or terrorists. And they can torture you, jail you without you knowing the ``proofs`` against you, if they even exists at all. Also, they can say you work for a foreign enemy, then you're an alien, then you have no Habeas Corpus. Anyway, when you legalise torture and supress habeas corpus, your going on the wrong path.

Cite a single case and document it please?

So your against the North American Union little Bush signed back in 2005?

Where did I say that. Please provide the page number in this thread?
I am not opposed to free trade through legal means.

Jihadists? There's isn't jihadists in Mexico, and if they were so dangerous, they would have blown something big in the US since 2001 for sure.

I'm saying they would take advantage of the open border and enter through Mexico. But then you knew what I meant. Didn't you?

Wipe you off the face of the earth? Sorry, but the entire planet want your government and people who support your government being wiped off the earth.

Now you are revealing the truth. The reason why you spin the news and mislead is that you agree with them. This is disinformation to further your personal cause.

And remember that the neo-cons engineer 9/11, madrid and London.

That is pure terrorist propaganda. Unfortunately, we have a small group of anarchists who parrot that ridiculous story. The only 9/11 conspiracy is the disinformation being spread by Radical Islam to further their aspirations of World domination. They know at least part of our population can be manipulated through their hatred and they are taking good advantage of that. This board is one of their tools and it's being used effectively against the tiny part of our population who spends more than a minute here. The most posts on this board by members in a day is around 2,000 out of the entire worldwide network. Minuscule might better describe the 9/11 Conspiracy community. I think many are pretending to be Americans and are in fact members of Radical Islam themselves. There - hows that for honesty!

You seem to want the border open to anyone badly enough you are willing to spin the truth to get people to agree. Why is that? What horse do you have in this race? Not accusing, just asking. It's hard to converse with someone without knowing motivation? Or is this more political propoganda? If it is, don't waste your time. I'm not a Republican Or a Democrat Political parties are for sheep.

Originally posted by InDirectViolation

That is pure terrorist propaganda. Unfortunately, we have a small group of anarchists who parrot that ridiculous story. The only 9/11 conspiracy is the disinformation being spread by Radical Islam to further their aspirations of World domination. They know at least part of our population can be manipulated through their hatred and they are taking good advantage of that. This board is one of their tools and it's being used effectively against the tiny part of our population who spends more than a minute here. The most posts on this board by members in a day is around 2,000 out of the entire worldwide network. Minuscule might better describe the 9/11 Conspiracy community. I think many are pretending to be Americans and are in fact members of Radical Islam themselves. There - hows that for honesty!

Are you freakin kiddin me? Let me tell you something.I am an American citizen and I love my country,but do I think there was a 9/11 cover-up? You damn betcha I do!! Do I buy what the government controlled media spoon feeds me everyday? You damn betcha I don't!!

[edit on 6-11-2006 by SpeakerofTruth]

Originally posted by clearwater


Must be a sale on iron curtains.

That was beautifully put. Imagine that. Right here in the land of the free.

Did anybody read this?

This rule proposes to amend existing Bureau of Customs and Border Protection regulations concerning electronic manifest transmission requirements relative to passengers, crew members, and non-crew members traveling onboard international commercial flights and voyages. Under current regulations, air carriers must transmit to the Bureau of Customs and Border Protection (CBP), Department of Homeland Security (DHS), passenger manifest information for aircraft en route to the United States no later than 15 minutes after the departure of the aircraft. This proposed rule implements the Intelligence Reform and Terrorism Prevention Act of 2004 requirement that such information be provided to the government before departure of the aircraft. This proposed rule provides air
carriers a choice between transmitting complete manifests no later than 60-minutes prior to departure of the aircraft or transmitting manifest information on passengers as each passenger checks in for the flight, up to but no later than 15 minutes prior to departure. The rule also proposes to amend the definition of ‘‘departure’’ for aircraft to mean the moment the aircraft is pushed back from the gate. For vessel departures from the United States, the rule proposes transmission of passenger and crew manifests no later than 60 minutes prior to departure of the vessel.

frwebgate.access.gpo.gov

of course not grady, nor did they look at mine. they dont care about the truth, only there own little personal anti-america agendas.

"The Department of Homeland Security proposed new rules back in July that would fundamentally undermine the right of American citizens to travel abroad. Public carriers--airlines, cruise lines, even fishing boats--will be required to submit the names of all passengers to Homeland Security prior to departure and to obtain permission from Homeland Security to board those passengers. These new rules will take effect January 14, 2007."

What is this then, a lie? Is this NOT carrying things a bit too far?

[edit on 6-11-2006 by dgtempe]