The Lawless One Revealed

Originally posted by dbates
So, you're saying that church members are blindly following their pastor? [...]

harpstrings
People who attend church in the name of Jesus Christ are unable to think for themselves unless and until they come out of that darkness and seek the Real Messiah Yeshua!! [...]

i'm still befuddled by this .

Is anyone suggesting that....every church goer must engage in further studies
like a Divinity School equivelent? or become versed and academic like they learn in Seminary?

The pastors, preachers, priests, clergy have all went thru that training...
and they each individually have come to develop their own unique ministry...
and there still seems to be a question, about if they are adequate 'shepherds'

The world has become way too diverse & complicated for a layman to be a
'Rennaissance Man' any more....keepin the job, providing for family, paying the taxes and being a 'blind'-follower in a congregation are more than enough for a person now-a-days.
There's other faiths that direct how, what, when & where, one is to behave, dress, study, pray.....are they also ?blind-followers?

dBates,

Thank you for trying to explain it. Sadly I still don't get it. Works is works. Faith/beleif is faith/beleif. Now, I maybe subsituting the comman beleif and transfering that to you. if so I apologize in advance. However, from what I have seen it goes something like...

"Salvation is born through faith that Jesus Christ is your lord ans saviour and through beleiving that he died for your sins. "

That is something I can not see. I can see where a really great man, who upon learning the mysteries dedicated himself in trying to teach the ignorant masses. This is/was and probably always will be an invitation to be killed. I can see how a man would try and do good, and how the system of power and material can and would be used to silence him. I can also see how such a man would be usefull in creating a new, and complete religon whereby the only requirement would be faith(and a percentage of your pay). This would control people(Do what we...errr...Christ says or go to hell and burn in eternity), and stop others from even attempting to undercover the mysteries.

I don't know if that makes any sense. It is hard to translate emotions into words huh?

Originally posted by Waiting2awake
Now, I maybe subsituting the comman beleif and transfering that to you. if so I apologize in advance.

None offense taken. Not wanting to derail this topic, so I'll just mention the thief on the cross beside Jesus (Yeshua). The ultimate story of how faith alone is enough.

[edit on 1-11-2006 by dbates]

Harpstrings, I'ld like to see more of this.
Where can I find good info on the 7 seals and such?

Hi Essedarius:

Essedarius >> In my opinion, you are placing far too much weight on names. Don't you think that the ideas of Jesus or Paul or God merit more consideration than the sampling of phonemes that are used to get their attention?

We disagree. Jesus means “Iesous (# 2424) means “Jehovah is Salvation.” Studying the meanings of Biblical Hebrew and Greek names can reveal much and add to the character and flavor of God’s Word. Satan’s name “Satanas” (#4567) means “Adversary.”

Essedarius >> We are having a discussion about faith right now and I'll let you in on a secret...Essedarius is not my real name. I'm going to go out on a limb and say that the same is true for SpeakerOfTruth, dbates, and for you too Harp.

Terral is my real name and I could not imagine using another. You could have helped things by choosing a smaller one. : 0 )

Esse >> Does this fact keep us from sharing our ideas and engaging in productive conversation? Nope. We need our names only so we can attach ideas to individuals and organize conversations. They are no more important than that.

That of course is a matter of one’s own opinion.

Esse >> God is many things to many people, I reckon...and a rose by any other name would smell as sweet.

And calling each other certain names gets us warnings and the boot right out of here. It is funny how things so unimportant to some are very important to others. The topic of this thread is “The Lawless One Revealed” which is a reference to Paul’s teaching in 2Thessalonians 2:1-6. What many fail to read correctly is that the antichrist will be revealed (Matthew 24:15) “IN HIS TIME” (2Thes. 2:6), which has nothing at all to do with ‘our time’ of today. God is building a mystery (Eph. 5:32) ‘body of Christ’ (Eph. 4:12) through a mystery (Eph. 3:3) Paul calls the “mystery of Christ” (Eph. 3:4, Col. 4:3).

The ‘mystery of iniquity’ (2Thes. 2:7) is the antithesis doctrine that teaches a ‘body of sin’ being built right along side the our “His body” Church (Colossians 1:24). In other words, everyone obeying the ‘true’ gospel (Christ and Him crucified = #2 Gospel here = www.belowtopsecret.com... ) become members of the “Christ’s body” church. However, Denominationalism is fabricating an even larger unholy ‘body of sin’ in the likeness of Goliath at the very same time. The antichrist (Matt. 24:15) and Christ Himself (Matt. 24:30+31) both make grand appearances “IN” their time very near the ‘end of the age’ (Matt. 24:3+), but NEITHER appear ‘physically’ in ‘our mystery time’ of today.

The ‘god of this world’ (2Cor. 4:3+4) blinds the minds of the unbelieving into believing a physical antichrist is coming today, so ‘professing’ Christians under his spell will not realize they have been caught in the net of his “mystery of iniquity,” without even knowing ‘that’ aspect of ‘the mystery’ even exists! Now that is keeping an ‘abovetopsecret’ topic buried underground, so people never even realize there is a conspiracy at all.

In Christ Jesus even now,

Terral

Originally posted by HarpStrings
I was a church goer myself and I thought for myself in the name of Yeshua Messiah and got out. (It's actually when we little sheep do think for ourselves that we get swept into the wilderness)

I don't see that coming up with a different name for Jesus makes ideology more authentic, and I do recall that Jesus broke Mosaic laws (which include dietary laws and work laws. His disciples specifically asked him about this.)

As for "thinking for oneself", I've encountered more divergant philosophies in those "thinking for themselves" with the result that the concept of the Christian god is now all over the map. According to what you thought for yourself, he may want you to follow all the laws in the Old Testament or only some of them, he may want you to believe that the Earth is only 6,000 years old, he may want you to believe that Biblical remedies are better than modern medicine, he may want you to believe that transfusions are evil, he may want you to believe that rock/rap/jazz is evil, etc, etc.

I'd have more faith in the "think for yourself" if it didn't seem to mean "everyone can make up their own philosophy."

dBates,

Glad no offense was taken. I love discussing this stuff, and fully accept that I know nothing of any real value of it. But I like to ask questions and sometimes they come off as being argumentative. I don't mean them to be, so if I happen to go that way, just correct me.

The problem I see with accepting the story of the Theif on the cross beside Yeshua is that it is from the same corruptable, and some say proven corrupted, book. However, that assumes the beleif in the literal word of the bible I suppose. Many people beleive that the Bible is more of an alagory, and if that is the way you feel about the story of the theirf on the cross(Along the same lines as the sower and the seeds alagory) then I suppose I just lack the background of the man on the Cross.

Anyway - who is the Lawless one. Aparently he is revealed.

Originally posted by St Udio
Is anyone suggesting that....every church goer must engage in further studies
like a Divinity School equivelent? or become versed and academic like they learn in Seminary?

Y'know, it MIGHT be a good idea if the "I know a better version of Christianity" folks actually did that.

The pastors, preachers, priests, clergy have all went thru that training...
and they each individually have come to develop their own unique ministry...
and there still seems to be a question, about if they are adequate 'shepherds'

Many aren't. Many are real predators. And many who don't go through the training and set up a church of their own are even worse spiritual counselors and worse predators.

Originally posted by Waiting2awake
From purely my own perspective I find a lot of this as simple "My invisible friend" is better than your invisible friend.

I however simply can not see salvation through faith. It seems to be an oxymoron to me. Merely beleiving in someone can not grant you slavation, but rather good works. That faith alone is as dead as the word. Which is why I have always had a minor dislike for Christanity in general and Catholism in piticular.

I qould like to hear though why the Trinity is considered false. Not arguing one side or the other, it just seems that a trinity would seem to make some sense with the little I understand about the Tree of LIfe.

Any clearification would be appreciated.

And there will be a lot of that feeling. I'm not stating my Messiah is better. I'm stating that most people are foolishly following the false Messiah, who teaches a false doctrine to false prophets. Let me put it to you this way, if His name is not Yeshua (with many spellings) then he is not the Son of Man. If whatever is being taught in His name, doesn't line up with His teachings then it isn't Him.

Christianity is simply paganism all dressed up and looking pretty. Why do you think there are people that want to know Him, but "Christianity" get's in the way of that? And yet.... Christianity is being sold to millions of people, nation to nation because just like a used car salesman, you either believe his nonesense and lies and buy the lemon or you are disgusted and walk away and therefore buy nothing.

The trinity was set up as a prop for the stage in Satans ultimate showdown. I'll go into more detail later. At this time I am just touching on the subject, so I am praying for understanding. I know this; it is there to twist the Truth and confuse man into thinking/believing that G_d is one person in three personas!

Originally posted by buddhaLight
Harpstrings, I'ld like to see more of this.
Where can I find good info on the 7 seals and such?

The Holy Spirit will reveal to you the Truth if you seek to know it! You will begin reading that Bible like it is literally living-not to be confused with bible worship though, I know that I would not know anything or understand the deceptions (of the world) without the Spirit of Yeshua Messiah as my Shepherd-my only Shepherd.

I believe I understand some of this theory, and have seen similar ideas before.....

One that I recall, is that when the Roman Empire 'accepted' the Christians' religion, and made it the 'government's' church, control passed from the hands of true believers and at that point was somewhat 'hijacked' by Satan......tricking humans into worshipping the 'wrong' Jesus.....on the wrong day, by the wrong rituals, etc.

I realized the above was somewhat biased against Catholicism, but even taking that into account, it makes one think......

Originally posted by Indellkoffer

Originally posted by HarpStrings
I was a church goer myself and I thought for myself in the name of Yeshua Messiah and got out. (It's actually when we little sheep do think for ourselves that we get swept into the wilderness)

I don't see that coming up with a different name for Jesus makes ideology more authentic, and I do recall that Jesus broke Mosaic laws (which include dietary laws and work laws. His disciples specifically asked him about this.)

Jesus has broken MANY laws!!!! Yeshua IS The Law. If the name wasn't a key to getting into the church or Bride, then why do you think His name was removed????

HARPSTRINGS;

Thanks for the reply. What you said about names though - What if his name was not Jesus, or Yeshua. What if his name is, say, Buddha - but his teachings are in line with what Yeshua taught, but counter to what the Church teaches? Shouldn't the persons actions, or rather, works be considered before any professed name? Are we not known by our fruits?

I would really like to discuss the trinity. It has been an interest ot me for a bit now. I hold no beleif to it one way or another, merely that from what I have seen from the tree of Life, a trinity collection seems to make more sense. Unless the tree of life is wrong, but that predates(from what I understand ofcourse, this could be completely false) even the old testament, therefore it would seem to me to a more likely scenerio would be christanity being changed(inclusion of the trinity) to conform to the earlier lies in the tree of life, but that would seem to mean that people are hiding something from people who would never see it in the first place. Clearly an illogical thing to do.

Anyway, I will wait for when you get around to the trinity issue. You seem to be loaded at the moment. I'll go for a beer. I was always told there was a devil in that bottle, maybe I'll see him this time.

Originally posted by St Udio

Originally posted by dbates
So, you're saying that church members are blindly following their pastor? [...]

harpstrings
People who attend church in the name of Jesus Christ are unable to think for themselves unless and until they come out of that darkness and seek the Real Messiah Yeshua!! [...]

i'm still befuddled by this .

Is anyone suggesting that....every church goer must engage in further studies
like a Divinity School equivelent? or become versed and academic like they learn in Seminary?

The pastors, preachers, priests, clergy have all went thru that training...
and they each individually have come to develop their own unique ministry...
and there still seems to be a question, about if they are adequate 'shepherds'

The world has become way too diverse & complicated for a layman to be a
'Rennaissance Man' any more....keepin the job, providing for family, paying the taxes and being a 'blind'-follower in a congregation are more than enough for a person now-a-days.
There's other faiths that direct how, what, when & where, one is to behave, dress, study, pray.....are they also ?blind-followers?

Who do you think taught those pastors, preachers and priests?? You don't need physical (man) teachings to be versed in the knowledge of the Truth. However you would if you were being trained or versed in the knowledge of the lie.

The only thing that makes life spiritually complicated for man is Satan and his disciples. Put your faith in man has christians have done over the course of the years and you have broken every Law of G_d and Satan has made you lawless-he has you right where he wants you. He has christianity right where he wants it but his time is SHORT.

G_d said all through the Bible...Remember the Sabbath and Keep it Holy. Why didn't He just say Honor the Sabbath Day of rest? The key to knowing the answer is the first word "Remember" because He knew we (man) would forget. But we surely remember christmas and easter and birthdays which are all a distraction to keep man occupied so he would forget!

Originally posted by HarpStringsJesus has broken MANY laws!!!! Yeshua IS The Law. If the name wasn't a key to getting into the church or Bride, then why do you think His name was removed????

Ya wanna clarify that one?

"Yeshua is the law?" I've seen about a dozen different interpretations on what laws he delivered in the past few weeks, including laws about homosexuality, whether women could hold office, satanic songs, and various things identified as The Beast.

And if his name was removed, how is it that we know it? If you mean Jesus=Yeshua, then are you arguing that only those who know the ultra-secret name are actually in heaven? This would mean you're worshipping a deity who deliberately allowed the hiding of his name so he could condemn billions of people to hell and save just a few thousand.

Originally posted by Waiting2awake
HARPSTRINGS;

Thanks for the reply.

Anyway, I will wait for when you get around to the trinity issue. You seem to be loaded at the moment. I'll go for a beer. I was always told there was a devil in that bottle, maybe I'll see him this time.

Yes absolutely man is known by his fruits. But Yeshua is not a man anymore. His fruit are us. Buddism (spelling) is a teaching/philosophy and the teaching does NOT line up with the Word. It sounds good *tickles the ears* but it isn't right for those who DO want to follow Yeshua Messiah. When you meet the Holy Spirit for the first time you begin to see the deceptions upon mankind thus Truth is *revealed* to you through The Holy Spirit Yeshua Messiah. When you learn and recognize the voice of your True Shepherd calling you out of darkness and deception, you can begin to discern the false shepherds voices.

I understand it this way; you cannot know truth if you are living a lie. You are on the inside looking out. You must -absolutely must -walk away from the lie and in order to do this, you must seek understanding of the Scripture through the Holy Spirit.

Yes I promise you that when I understand more, I will share more with you. (regarding the holy trinity)

Originally posted by HarpStrings
I'm not placing any merit in the name Jesus Christ but many many people do. I place my faith totally in YHWH, through Yeshua Messiah and if another comes in His name speaking peace, love harmony etc...then they obviously are not He.

I'm confused...you will know that they are not He because of their NAME, or because of their thoughts? Doesn't Yeshua Messiah speak of peace, love, and harmony?

In other words the savior we loved and knew Jesus, is an impostor by identity and the Roman empire set it up this way FOR Satan/anti-christ(s)

That's where we really really disagree. Imposters get put on an altar all the time. If Jesus was a Roman shill, I simply don't believe that his fake religion would have survived the 3rd century, much less the 13th, even less the 21st.

So you think then it is alright if I worship and praise Yeshua Messiah in the name of baal or saturn or....zeus?? You think Yeshua would really approve?

I think that any God worth worshipping is able to see through an honest labeling mistake quite easily. The important thing is not that you call God the right name at the right time with the right prayer...I believe that the important thing is that you sincerely call...that's all.

Hi Waiting:

Waiting> Thank you for trying to explain it. Sadly I still don't get it. Works is works. Faith/beleif is faith/beleif. . . I apologize in advance. . from what I have seen it goes something like...

One of the most difficult Bible teachings is the truth that God chooses us and NOBODY chooses Him. There is no preacher on this planet ready to preach the Gospel to you, until God taps him on the shoulder and sends him your way. A person does not simply wake up one morning and say, “Hey, I am going to become a Christian today.” Anyone can join a ‘Denomination’ that way, but that will never place you “IN” Christ Jesus. You keep harping on this ‘faith/belief’ concept, but do not know about the ‘faith of Jesus’ required to actually allow someone to truly ‘believe’ (Ephesians 1:13+14) the gospel. That faith comes by ‘hearing the word concerning Christ’ (Romans 10:17), which is the gospel itself. Hearing in this sense has little to do with your ears, but has everything to do with your willingness to place yourself into the position of obedience.

You told your child not to play in the street, but look out there five minutes later to find him on the other side of the road. Then you march out there and take him by the ear to lead him home, saying, “I told you not to cross the street, do you HEAR ME?!” Of course the lad hears you, because his ears are working just fine; but that is not your true intention at all. You want to know if he is ‘now’ ready to be ‘obedient’ to your commands. Suppose God sent me to preach the Gospel to you: I would tell you that Jesus Christ is the Son of God (Romans 1:4) and He died for our sins and God raised Him from the dead on the third day (1Cor. 15:3+4); that our redemption is “IN” Christ (Romans 3:24) and our forgiveness is through His precious blood (Eph. 1:7). The Holy Spirit in my mortal body (1Cor. 3:16, 6:19) is surrounding you in anticipation of handing you the ‘faith of Jesus,’ but He is looking for that opening of ‘hearing’ in the form of your placing yourself into the right position; exactly like you are wanting to see in your child now on your side of the street. If you look into His eyes with the affirmative “Yes,” even without uttering one sound, then the Holy Spirit Himself ‘seals’ you (Eph. 1:13+14) into the ‘one body’ (1Cor. 12:27) for the ‘day of redemption’ (Eph. 4:30).

The key is that the Holy Spirit actually baptizes you into Christ (Gal. 3:27) on the cross 2000 years ago, so you can be “crucified with Christ” (Galatians 2:20). That allows God to THEN raise up you with Christ (Col. 3:1-3) and seat you in the heavenly places with Him “IN” Christ Jesus (Ephesians 2:6). You are only introduced to God’s ‘grace’ through the same ‘faith of Jesus’ given you by the Holy Spirit upon ‘hearing’ (becoming obedient) to the Gospel.

“Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom also we have obtained our introduction BY FAITH into this grace in which we stand; and we exult in hope of the glory of God.” Romans 5:1+2.

Waiting > "Salvation is born through faith that Jesus Christ is your lord ans saviour and through beleiving that he died for your sins."

Not exactly. Believing that Jesus is Lord AND God raised Him from the dead (Romans 10:9) are component precepts teaching our ‘doctrine of salvation’ for today. However, you are saved by God’s grace through faith apart from works (Eph. 2:8+9) and adding the tiniest itsy bitsy little “WORK” makes “VOID” (1Cor. 1:17) the power of the cross to save anyone. I preach the Gospel and you either believe it or disbelieve it – Period! There are no prayers, songs, water baptisms or any other WORK to be added to the Gospel of your salvation:

“In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God's own possession, to the praise of His glory.” Ephesians 1:13+14.

Dying with Christ to be raised with Him fulfills the requirement that “And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to DIE ONCE and after this comes judgment. . .”. Hebrews 9:27.

God raised you up with Christ “IN” Him and seated you Both “IN” the heavenly places “IN” Christ Jesus (Eph. 2:6). The fact that Christ has been raised means you have been forgiven of all sins, because God placed everything on Him on your behalf (2Cor. 5:21). We already know this makes NO SENSE at all, which is part of how and why God choose things to be this way.

“For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not come to know God, God was well-pleased through the foolishness of the message preached to save those WHO BELIEVE.” 1Corinthians 1:21.

Suppose we lined up every man and woman here on the eastern shores of the USA and everyone who can swim to Europe would be saved. How many would make it? Zero? Nobody here is capable of paying for their own transgressions against God that have been carried out far beyond the realm of time and space itself. Everyone here is standing before our God in His Infinite Realm for crimes connected to the Satanic Rebellion and “He” is calling “Only” those to Him found “innocent” of those crimes. If you stand guilty in God’s Infinite Realm where “Your are gods” (Psalm 82:6, John 10:34), then NOTHING in this universe is going to save you. However, when God judges you and things go in your favor, then He sends somebody just like me to offer the Gospel concerning His Only Begotten Son; that by ‘hearing’ you will be numbered among the ‘sons of God’ (Romans 8:145, 19, Gal. 3:26, etc.).

Waiting > That is something I can not see .

Many believe Christianity is a Religion, but in truth it is ‘a faith’ and a relationship between you and our God through His Son by the power of the Holy Spirit in our mortal bodies. Having the faith of Jesus inside (Christ in you = Col. 1:27) is also having the ability to jump out on nothing to land on something that God has placed there specifically for you. The saved walk by faith and not by sight (2Cor. 5:7) to follow the Spirit and not the flesh (Gal. 5:16-18). Waiting until you can see it takes the ‘faith’ aspect right out of the picture.

In Christ Jesus,

Terral

Originally posted by Indellkoffer

Originally posted by HarpStringsJesus has broken MANY laws!!!! Yeshua IS The Law. If the name wasn't a key to getting into the church or Bride, then why do you think His name was removed????

Ya wanna clarify that one?

"Yeshua is the law?" I've seen about a dozen different interpretations on what laws he delivered in the past few weeks, including laws about homosexuality, whether women could hold office, satanic songs, and various things identified as The Beast.

And if his name was removed, how is it that we know it? If you mean Jesus=Yeshua, then are you arguing that only those who know the ultra-secret name are actually in heaven? This would mean you're worshipping a deity who deliberately allowed the hiding of his name so he could condemn billions of people to hell and save just a few thousand.

There is The Law of Moses delivered from G_d for ALL mankind, old and new etc etc..and then there are the Liviticus laws for the earlier people (creation) to know wrong from right. The Law I'm referring to is The Ten Commandments. Once Yeshua 'came' He became that Law, He is The Law. No one can get to the Father YHWH, except through the Son, Yeshua.

I'm attempting to bring to light for you the how and the why His name was removed and replaced. You can research as well through the history or His-story and you will have the answers to your questions. I can give you answers and guide you to seeking further confirmation. But do not sit idle and think the Truth is going to come to you by means of me or anyone because that isn't how He does things, you must seek Him, ask Him for Truth. If you do not, then I or anyone could talk to you/write to you His Truth, but you will NEVER understand it without His Spirit. Thus proclaiming His name.

Originally posted by HarpStrings
Who do you think taught those pastors, preachers and priests??

Being familiar with the seminary, those who taught them were scholars and they read extensively the letters and other works of the earliest Christians.

You don't need physical (man) teachings to be versed in the knowledge of the Truth.

That belief fosters ignorance of the rich history and writings of those who knew the Savior and those who walked with his disciples. It fosters foolish knowledge based on bad understanding and on not reading the whole book.

Put your faith in man has christians have done over the course of the years and you have broken every Law of G_d and Satan has made you lawless-he has you right where he wants you. He has christianity right where he wants it but his time is SHORT.

Your own interpretation. One of thousands, and you haven't bothered studying the ancients. How can we trust that YOU are right? Jim Jones said the same thing and in the end he murdered thousands of his followers. David Khoresh said the same thing with bitter fruit for his followers... and on, and on and on.

There are so many people here just like you, and each with their own specific interpretation. I don't see any reason to follow ANY of you "guided by inspiration" folks. Give me someone who has studied the book and its foundations instead of "someone on divine fire."

Khoresh was on divine fire. So is polygamist Warren Jeffs. So is Kip McKean of International Church of Christ (a real scumbag.) So was Marshal Applewhite (Heaven's Gate). So was Charles Manson. So are Roland and Georgette Robidoux, founders of The Body of Christ (busted when bodies of some of the group's infants were found at a state park.)

All these people and more came out of nowhere, proclaiming that traditional religion led to "sheeple" and that THEY had the right message. They had various names for Jesus (sometimes) and all of them had the Divine Message.

I'm suspicious of religious advice offered by those who read and think and reject automatically any other sources. The Church Of God With Signs Following grew out of George W. Hensley's conviction that everyone else had it wrong and he had it right. The deaths of 60 of his followers from snakebite is a trivial issue for them.

I don't think anyone should trust the interpretation of just one person.