Obviously most of us know what it means to be lawless. For example when we drive 50 mph is a 35 zone, we are-according to “mans” law-lawless….

The lawless one spoken of or better yet, forewarned of in 2 Thessalonians 2 (the entire chapter needs to be read to understand) is not a speeding man on the roads today. However being that I’ve used speeding as an example, I’ll continue with that flow to bring understanding to those who want to understand. The lawless one written of Biblically is man without YHWH, he is a man who places anything/anyone before YHWH thus he is *spiritually speeding*.

Now take another example; 2 persons (or more) are in the car with the driver who is “speeding” or the lawless one, they are friends, possibly even family, so is it “nice” to say slow down and obey the law? Yes, it is the responsibility of anyone who is intelligent inside the car to enforce the driver to slow down as they are risking the lives of the passengers AND even other drivers on the road!! (which I’ll explain later)

Spiritually, most of mankind is speeding. And when the pastor speeds, no one is “nice” enough to tell him to slow down. Why? I’ll tell you why. You trust your pastors, preachers, priests etc….You believe that they are above The Law and can keep you safe no matter how fast they go. You would allow this much control by another man for your salvation but not approve of your brother or sister et al driving 90mph in a 25mph marked zone!

If the above spiritually is the case with you, you are the one spoken of or warned of in 2 Thess. You have allowed or have personally placed another god (man) above YOUR ONE AND ONLY ETERNAL CREATOR YHWH and subsequently you have placed another savior or king above Yeshua Messiah. And all of those who attend to your church are at risk of suffering or death too.

Wake up sleepy heads it is time!

So, you're saying that church members are blindly following their pastor? I'm not disbelieving you but give us some examples.

Yeah but easily 70% of the people I see on the road drive at least 10mph over the speed limit. Doesn't that indicate the speed limit is unreasonably low? 55 mph is far too low, for sure. But then traffic courts are revenue courts anyway so having a speed limit that didn't allow cops to pull people over and for revenue to be gained, would be non-profitable.

But then there's the school which says that people should be prevented from hurting themselves, and I think this is relevant to Judaism, which proscribes so many laws that their people are usually miserable and consigned to a lifetime of misery and obedience. Ya-hoo.

I suppose your post has merit primarily in pointing out two sets of laws which are divorced from reality and a burden on the people, namely the Vehicle Code and the Mosaic Code. Good observations.

I pay good money every time I go to church in order to be accepted into heaven, it's a time honored and ancient practice that goes back thousands of years.

Besides ... who, aside from your god, says your god is the only true god?

The ancient Greeks never heard of your god.
The ancient Chinese never heard of your god.
The American Indians never heard of your god.

Go back to your temple and cloth thyself in preistly attire, pay gold for another holy book and offer gold to keep your temple intact. Then hit the roads and curse others who commit small transgressions while praising those that commit huge transgressions.

Originally posted by dbates
So, you're saying that church members are blindly following their pastor? I'm not disbelieving you but give us some examples.

Does the church teach that Jesus is Christ and he will save you. Does the church worship or gather in the name of Jesus Christ on Sun day. Does the church teach that you are saved by water baptism. Does the church teach of the false trinity. Does the church condone or allow pagen holidays to supersede The Almightys festivals and feast days.

The foundation for Satan was laid years ago for the church to deceive man. And the closer we come to that 6th seal being opened, the more people are coming to the knowledge of the Truth. Or the closer we come to the opening of that 6th seal, the more people NEED to come to the knowledge of the Truth.

Originally posted by 2stepsfromtop
I pay good money every time I go to church in order to be accepted into heaven, it's a time honored and ancient practice that goes back thousands of years.

Are you serious? You "pay" good money to be saved? Did you not know that salvation is free???? You must be joking. I hope you are.

Originally posted by dbates
So, you're saying that church members are blindly following their pastor? I'm not disbelieving you but give us some examples.

Certainly they are. When have you actually witnessed a "churchgoer" who thought for him/her self?

[edit on 1-11-2006 by SpeakerofTruth]

No, I think that most are blindly following their leaders, but there are some who question what's going on and will leave if the church is taken over by a pastor that's out of line. They usually get labeled "troublemakers". I've been in that group before, and to the suprise of the people that stayed, their sweet pastor was involved in tax evasion. Those of us that left (read pushed out for complaining about his abuse) were not quite as suprised as the rest of the church. No one wants to hear their pastor has flaws.

I think most church leaders mean well, but you have to make sure they are actually reading from the Bible.

Originally posted by smallpeeps
I suppose your post has merit primarily in pointing out two sets of laws which are divorced from reality and a burden on the people, namely the Vehicle Code and the Mosaic Code. Good observations.

The Law from G_d given to Moses is the Ten Commandments. All who love The Father, YHWH and believe in His Son Yeshua Messiah are still to remain faithful to The Law as even Yeshua did. The church today however is doing away with or teaching away from G_ds Law. See Daniel 7:25.

Originally posted by dbates
No, I think that most are blindly following their leaders, but there are some who question what's going on and will leave if the church is taken over by a pastor that's out of line. They usually get labeled "troublemakers". I've been in that group before, and to the suprise of the people that stayed, their sweet pastor was involved in tax evasion. Those of us that left (read pushed out for complaining about his abuse) were not quite as suprised as the rest of the church. No one wants to hear their pastor has flaws.

I think most church leaders mean well, but you have to make sure they are actually reading from the Bible.

Tax evasion of course if evidence of something going on that isn't right. But is lighting a Christmas Tree really so bad? You have to look further than the obvious to see the false doctrine being taught. You have to use the Spirit of Truth to discern. But how can you (universal you) if your Spirit is being choked by deception clothed in white?? "If it looks good it must be good" is not the case here.

Oh they are actually reading from the Bible, but because they are not reading from the Word with the Spirit of Messiah, they can manipulate Scripture and thus teach a false doctrine straight out of the Holy Book. Satan is a pro at this, he's been doing it for a while now.

Originally posted by SpeakerofTruth

Originally posted by dbates
So, you're saying that church members are blindly following their pastor? I'm not disbelieving you but give us some examples.

Certainly they are. When have you actually witnessed a "churchgoer" who thought for him/her self?

People who attend church in the name of Jesus Christ are unable to think for themselves unless and until they come out of that darkness and seek the Real Messiah Yeshua!! He is was and always has been and will be the only Savior for mankind. He is the Truth, the Way and the Life. And Satan has done a so so job at imitating Him and deceiving those who don't know His voice. Satan already has many men worshipping his image, the image of Yeshua Messiah.

Originally posted by SpeakerofTruth
Certainly they are. When have you actually witnessed a "churchgoer" who thought for him/her self?

Well if that isn't the most broadly ignorant statement I've heard in a long time.

I'm surprised Speaker, I haven't known you to dabble in stereotypes.
Do you have any other good ones for us?

Maybe one about hicks in the midwest? Pot smokers in Oregon? People who like football. Shoppers who like malls?

Ooo ooo I know, how about people who frequent conspiracy forums, they're ALL the same, aren't they?

Come on, come on...don't stop at "churchies", that's like shooting fish in a barrel. You're better than that.



[edit on 1-11-2006 by Essedarius]
*fixed quote

[edit on 1-11-2006 by dbates]

Originally posted by Essedarius
Apologies for my post above and the misquoting.
I'm troubled by the whole "editing" thing.
You know people like me...so dumb.

Here's what I meant to do:

Originally posted by SpeakerofTruth
Certainly they are. When have you actually witnessed a "churchgoer" who thought for him/her self?

Well if that isn't the most broadly ignorant statement I've heard in a long time.

I was a church goer myself and I thought for myself in the name of Yeshua Messiah and got out. (It's actually when we little sheep do think for ourselves that we get swept into the wilderness)

Shoud you be criticized for saying Yeshua instead of יֵשׁוּעַ

There's a language barrier here, so we don't pronounce the Hebrew names exactly as one would have then.

Christ comes from the Greek word Χριστός (Christós) which is the usual translation for the Hebrew word מָשִׁיחַ (Mašíah), that is Messiah. It means the anointed one.

Jesus is actually a contraction or short form of the name Joshua, but we don't rail people for not calling Josuha "Yehoshua". The meaning of course is something to the effect of "salvation of God".

So Jesus Christ = Salvation of God, The Anointed One

I don't have any problems with that.

EDIT: F.Y.I. The New Testament was mostly written in Greek, thus the word "Christ"(Greek) instead of "Messiah"(Hebrew). Po-TAAA-to ....Po-Ta-to



[edit on 1-11-2006 by dbates]

Originally posted by Essedarius

Well if that isn't the most broadly ignorant statement I've heard in a long time.

I'm surprised Speaker, I haven't known you to dabble in stereotypes.
Do you have any other good ones for us?

Maybe one about hicks in the midwest? Pot smokers in Oregon? People who like football. Shoppers who like malls?




[edit on 1-11-2006 by Essedarius]
*fixed quote



[edit on 1-11-2006 by dbates]

Okay,okay.. I deserved that one. I was indeed speaking very broadly when I made my remark,and yes, it was stereotyping.

Originally posted by HarpStrings
(It's actually when we little sheep do think for ourselves that we get swept into the wilderness)

Wait wait, whoa!

I feel like I'm riding the pirate ship ride at the fair!

God gave us the power to analyze situations. Do you really think that he is up in heaven shaking his head when we use that power to analyze our faith? No no.

As SpeakerOfTruth pointed out, many people surrender the gift of analytical thinking at the door of their church. (In fact, every churchgoer Speaker has ever ever encountered has done that, apparently.) God gave you that ability to think independently. Why would you neglect a gift like that?!?

Having faith is not a synonym for living in ignorance

I know that I will never even come close to mapping the complexion of God Almighty...but I will never stop exploring.

To shut your mind off is to spit on God's greatest gift to you.

Originally posted by dbates
Shoud you be criticized for saying Yeshua instead of יֵשׁוּעַ

There's a language barrier here, so we don't pronounce the Hebrew names exactly as one would have then.

Christ comes from the Greek word Χριστός (Christós) which is the usual translation for the Hebrew word מָשִׁיחַ (Mašíah), that is Messiah. It means the anointed one.

Jesus is actually a contraction or short form of the name Joshua, but we don't rail people for not calling Josuha "Yehoshua". The meaning of course is something to the effect of "salvation of God".

So Jesus Christ = Salvation of God, The Anointed One

I don't have any problems with that.

I don't have any problem with anything you've written! HOWEVER, if and when you learn prophesy in the Bible straight out of the mouth of Yeshua Messiah even, you can line that up with the Word of the Holy Spirit and understand that the name Jesus which came only a few hundred years ago, has allowed Satan to do exactly what is written and that is come in the name of Messiah and deceive many, if not all mankind. Satan cannot come AS Yeshua Messiah, only as the IMAGE of Messiah. Therefore Satan planned(or planted) the name Jesus Christ so that he could come as king and teach a new, false, mystery religion under the name of Christ.

As far as I am aware, Jesus' name is Yeshua... Yes,Harpstrings, as far as I know, you are correct on that account.

Originally posted by Essedarius

Originally posted by HarpStrings
(It's actually when we little sheep do think for ourselves that we get swept into the wilderness)

Wait wait, whoa!

I feel like I'm riding the pirate ship ride at the fair!

God gave us the power to analyze situations. Do you really think that he is up in heaven shaking his head when we use that power to analyze our faith? No no.

As SpeakerOfTruth pointed out, many people surrender the gift of analytical thinking at the door of their church. (In fact, every churchgoer Speaker has ever ever encountered has done that, apparently.) God gave you that ability to think independently. Why would you neglect a gift like that?!?

Having faith is not a synonym for living in ignorance

I know that I will never even come close to mapping the complexion of God Almighty...but I will never stop exploring.

To shut your mind off is to spit on God's greatest gift to you.

I understand you. And yes we have the power and ability to think for ourselves, absolutely! But it is when we 'place man before G_d' the First Commandment that we are not thinking for ourselves!!!!! Thus we are swept into wilderness and become prey of the wolves in sheep clothing (The false ones the lawless and wicked)

Originally posted by SpeakerofTruth
Okay,okay.. I deserved that one. I was indeed speaking very broadly when I made my remark,and yes, it was stereotyping.

You are good people, Speaker.

I don't mean to come off so high and mighty.
We all wander into the world of stereotype now and again...whoops...see?