Solving Illegal Immigration

There was an ATSNN thread concerning the new border fence, and I posted a few of my ideas on fixing illegal immigration. Naturally some people disagreed with me, and they definatly had the right to, however I figured it'd be best to simply make a topic here instead of derailing ATSNN more than I have.

So anyhow I figured now might be a good time to try to constructively solve the issue of illegal immigration. Each person could present some of their own ideas for an ideal program, and discuss the ideas of others, all in a constructive manner. Here I go;

1. Amnesty. I know it's definatly not fair at all, but from a practical standpoint I don't think that we can afford to go out and roundup all the illegal immigrants in this country and deport them. I also feel that morally speaking it wouldn't be right to send back somebody who's been here most of their life but was brought over as a child.

2. Grant equal wages to those who've come over illegally. If employers have to give the same wages and benefits then what's the advantage of hiring illegals? (Many thanks to Maddox for coming up with this.)

3. Improve the nation's education program. This means getting rid of the No Child Left Behind Act, making college more financially accessable, and doing what we can to change the culture of stupidity being cool. Ask rich and famous to go out to schools and profess being a nerd (assuming they were one, such as Bill Gates), and why being smart is actually a good thing. Considering how much Bill Gates is into helping out education he'd be the ideal candidate to go around and talk to kids on why it's cool to be smart.

4. Enough with the outsourcing. Who benefits from outsourcing? The lower class in the short term, and the upper class in the long run. The middle class winds up getting screwed over equally. What happens when industry leaves America? The jobs leave with the industry, thus causing widespread problems within the middle class economy. The lower class may benefit from lower prices at Big Box Mart in the short run, but what happens when the errosion of the middle class causes a depression? The lower class gets screwed over.

Forgive me if that sounds like communism, but what I'm advocating wouldn't actually be the state taking direct control of the economy. Instead we could offer tax breaks to companies that employ in the US so as to give incentive to come over, and then make huge tax hikes on companies that continue outsourcing, that giving incentive to leave places like China and India.

With outsoucing taken care of the common person will finally be able to get a job in the industry without having to worry about his/her job being outsoucred. This should in effect open up more jobs, and mainly get America used to getting it's hands dirty. White collar work might look good on the economy, but in my opinion it's teaching us to be more dependant on others. We find ourselves dependant on cheap labor, in this case immigrants. I feel that if America can learn to be self sustaining again and become the industrial powerhouse it once was we'll become a much more self reliant nation. One that doesn't need illegal immigrants to do the dirty work for us.

5. Do something about Wal-Mart. If you're going to pass a law that says you can't employ illegal immigrants then at least enforce it. I say we fine Wal-Mart a good sum of money and use that cash to finance our educational programs.

6. Build some schools in Mexico. As much as I hate the idea of having to do the work for the Mexican government, their government isn't going to fix their country within the next century is my guess. So I say offer them help by building schools so as to educate the masses, and hopefully make Mexico a better place to live.

7. Significantly lower taxes on low-wage workers. Considering that they don't make much, the tax money we get from them isn't much and we wouldn't loose too much. However tax breaks for the poor would be worth a lot to them. Buy lowering income taxes on lower paying jobs that would encourage legal citizens to take those jobs instead of holding out for something higher paying since they'd be capable of making more than previously.

8. Revamp the welfare system and umemployment office to work so that you'll immediatly be assigned a job, no matter how low paying it is until a better one can be found for you. If you think you're too good to work in a field (this is assuming you're physically able) and don't want to work then no ememployment welfare for you. If working in a field doesn't pay enough but you're willing to work that job then you can get some welfare to supplement your paycheck while you and the unemployment office search for a better job for you. This will also help to fill vaccancies in job slots for low paying jobs, thus making the economy even more competative, and less attractive for unskilled immigrants.


In conclusion my idea is that although walls and security cameras are good, they won't solve the fact that there's a lot of motivation to escape from Mexico to the US. I think that the best long term solution would be to improve the competativeness of the US econcomy (it certainly could use it), and get Americans to be willing to get their hands a bit dirty.

Hi Cyberdude:

Cyber >> 1. Amnesty. I know it's definatly not fair at all, but from a practical standpoint I don't think that we can afford to go out and roundup all the illegal immigrants in this country and deport them.

That is bogus. Prosecute those ‘hiring’ ILLEGALS and they will be forced to simply go back home. Giving ILLEGALS amnesty (stupid idea) only opens the floodgates to more ILLEGAL immigrants. We are a nation of LAWS. What part of ILLEGAL are you having trouble understanding? Your idea gives our children the notion that we are only bound to obey those laws we feel are personally ‘affordable.’

Cyber >> I also feel that morally speaking it wouldn't be right to send back somebody who's been here most of their life but was brought over as a child.

Morally? These ILLEGALS are citizens of another country. The law abiding citizens of the USA have no responsibility to suffer under the steady inundation of ILLEGALS upon practically every county and township of this once great country. American employers are using the ILLEGALS to gain an unfair advantage in the marketplace, but the general public must subsidize the needs of an out of control ILLEGAL population. This “child” lingo is nothing more than Corporate America Propaganda!

Cyber >> 2. Grant equal wages to those who've come over illegally. If employers have to give the same wages and benefits then what's the advantage of hiring illegals? (Many thanks to Maddox for coming up with this.)

OMG! You have no right to ‘give’ anything to anyone entering this country ILLEGALLY. Employers must be forced to OBEY THE LAW and hire documented AMERICANS. Giving some ILLEGALS a work permit will NEVER WORK, because these same Americans hiring the ILLEGALS will also pass those over to hire the undocumented workers at a lower rate. American Employers are hiring ILLEGALS at an alarming rate to push their competitors OUT competition in the marketplace. Your stupid ideas will only give those hiring ILLEGALS a stronger foothold.

Cyber >> 3. Improve the nation's education program. This means getting rid of the No Child Left Behind Act, making college more financially accessable, and doing what we can to change the culture of stupidity being cool.

Everything in this section of your OP is more stupidity. Because you are unaware, America is a capitalist society based upon ‘competition’ in the local markets based upon the presumption of a ‘level playing field’ protected by the Federal and State Governments. The Feds are NOT protecting our “national” sovereignty by letting every kind of ILLEGAL cross our borders and move about freely to be hired by any American company that comes along. We must penalize those ‘hiring’ the undocumented workers and reduce the power of the ILLEGAL Job Magnet, so all the ILLEGALS are forced to simply go home.

Cyber >> 4. Enough with the outsourcing . . . Forgive me if that sounds like communism, but what I'm advocating wouldn't actually be the state taking direct control of the economy . . .

This has nothing whatsoever to do with the topic of this thread.

Cyber >> . . . We find ourselves dependant on cheap labor, in this case immigrants.

Dependant? Please . . . Everyone ‘hiring’ ILLEGALS in the USA is breaking the Law. Period! They do so to gain an unfair advantage over their law abiding competitors. One mason with a mortar mixer goes out and hires ten or twelve ILLEGALS willing to work at half the price and NO OVERHEAD, which eventually drives the prices down and the other masons in the area must concede OR begin hiring ILLEGALS also. The same thing is happening the carpentry, drywall, stucco, electrician, plumber, etc., trades all over America as we speak. Why? Because nobody is ‘enforcing’ laws already on the books against the hiring of undocumented workers. Am I serving my country and local economy by firing all of my masons and tenders to hire a herd of ILLEGALS? No. Do I serve “We The People” by forcing all of my employees to take pay cuts, so I can compete with those hiring the ILLEGALS? No. You need to pull your head out of the sand and wake up, because you haven’t the slightest clue about what you are rambling about; as these things have application to the local economies and the common middle class worker. Americans cannot get a raise, when fifty ILLEGALS are standing on the corner willing to do the same job for half the price.

Cyber >> I feel that if America can learn to be self sustaining again and become the industrial powerhouse it once was we'll become a much more self reliant nation. One that doesn't need illegal immigrants to do the dirty work for us.

How unaware are you of the size of this ILLEGAL hiring problem??? Local house builders here in Florida are firing all their American subcontractors to hire crews dominated by 100 percent ILLEGALS. They are even cutting out the American that once hired the ILLEGALS to work directly with those coming across the border in droves. They live 20 in a house and ship their money back to Mexico, which takes more and more money OUT of our local economies. And you want to make them legal? LOL! Just open up the borders and let 100 million of them in and another 100 million will follow, while the American middle class disappears before your very eyes. They are not here to become Americans. They are here to replace us and siphon off as much of our wealth as possible.

Cyber >> 5. Do something about Wal-Mart. If you're going to pass a law that says you can't employ illegal immigrants then at least enforce it. I say we fine Wal-Mart a good sum of money and use that cash to finance our educational programs.

Pass laws? We already have a ton of laws on the books that the Bush Administration and their cronies refuse to enforce! What makes you believe for one minute they intend to enforce any new legislation? The Bush Administration pushing their “Comprehensive Immigration Reform” package represents the president’s attempt to place pressure upon the Legislative Branch of our Federal Government. He is no right or power to be telling our Congress how to make laws, when this crisis is being caused by his own FAILURE to enforce laws already on the books.

[Continued]

[edit on 27-10-2006 by Terral]

Mr. Bush needs to do is job of ‘enforcing’ current laws and shut up about how Congress is making new ones.

Cyber >> 6. Build some schools in Mexico. As much as I hate the idea of having to do the work for the Mexican government, their government isn't going to fix their country within the next century is my guess. So I say offer them help by building schools so as to educate the masses, and hopefully make Mexico a better place to live.

Holy Molies . . . Instead of enforcing current laws forbidding American companies from hiring ILLEGALS, your solution is to build schools in Mexico. Haaaaaa! We cut off the ILLEGAL Hiring Magnet in this country by penalizing the Employers, so the ILLEGAL hiring job market dries up and all of these Mexicans go home! They can work to make Mexico a better place to live.

Cyber >> 7. Significantly lower taxes on low-wage workers.

Low wage earners do not play taxes now. I know mason contractors working out there right now who pay all of their employees cash and take out no taxes at all. There is no enforcement of laws already on the books and American employers are getting away with murder. Your finger pointing is in all the wrong places . . .

Cyber >> Considering that they don't make much, the tax money we get from them isn't much and we wouldn't loose too much. However tax breaks for the poor would be worth a lot to them. Buy lowering income taxes on lower paying jobs that would encourage legal citizens to take those jobs instead of holding out for something higher paying since they'd be capable of making more than previously.

Please stop the fantasy! Well over 90 percent of the ILLEGALS are displacing Americans in the workplace making less than 40,000 dollars per year and in many cases under 25,000 dollars. Masons in my area were making 20 dollars per hour at the turn of the century, but the same jobs right now pay much less. Some of these idiots want to pay you 12 bucks per hour, because their ILLEGALS are willing to work for that price. Changing tax laws represents a pipedream, when we have such massive lawbreaking going on. How many ATS members reading this post see a car full of ILLEGALS going to work on most mornings? That is someone’s American Dream going right out the window.

Cyber >> 8. Revamp the welfare system and umemployment office to work so that you'll immediatly be assigned a job, no matter how low paying it is until a better one can be found for you.

In that case nobody would pay a fair wage, because we would wait for the next guy coming off the ‘assigned’ assembly line. Why pay my masons 20 bucks per hour like six or seven years ago, when I can wait and pay some poor guy 10 bucks off your assigned line?

Cyber >> If you think you're too good to work in a field (this is assuming you're physically able) and don't want to work then no ememployment welfare for you. If working in a field doesn't pay enough but you're willing to work that job then you can get some welfare to supplement your paycheck while you and the unemployment office search for a better job for you. This will also help to fill vaccancies in job slots for low paying jobs, thus making the economy even more competative, and less attractive for unskilled immigrants.

LOL . . . I can hardly believe any thinking human being would dream this stuff up. Many of these ILLEGALS are highly skilled and more efficient than the American workers they replace. I have seen ILLEGALS hang drywall twice and three times as fast and accurately has their American counterparts, even though they work for less than half the price. According to you, our skilled masons, carpenters, etc. are not worthy to continue in the trades handed down from their fathers and their fathers, because we are not willing to work for the peanuts being shelled out to the ILLEGALS living 20 in a house. What is going on right now every day in this once great country is ILLEGAL and those sworn to protect Americans, their livelihoods and our posterity are part of the problem. America is going to hell in a hand basket and you sit there deciding who deserves ‘employment welfare.’

Cyber >> In conclusion my idea is that although walls and security cameras are good, they won't solve the fact that there's a lot of motivation to escape from Mexico to the US. I think that the best long term solution would be to improve the competativeness of the US econcomy (it certainly could use it), and get Americans to be willing to get their hands a bit dirty.

In other words, do all of these ridiculous things BUT do not hold any American Employers accountable for hiring the ILLEGALS in the first place. How convenient . . . You should run for the US Senate, because they have things completely backwards also. The only thing for certain is that things are going to continue to get worse and worse, until we wake up one day and we are surrounded by tens of millions of ‘have nots,’ willing to take everything away from the ‘haves’ like you. How about if I give all of my employees pink slips and replace every one of them with ILLEGALS? That way I can lower my prices and be more ‘competitive’ and make more money at the same time. What you are basically saying is “Screw The American Middle Class” and force everyone to work for the wage of the least common denominator, which just happens to be millions of ILLEGALS; because Bush thinks that is a great idea.

Terral

[edit on 27-10-2006 by Terral]

Solving illegal immigration

There will never be any complete solution, as some will always get through no matter WHAT we do.

BUT

1. We can reduce the numbers dramatically, and Bush's signing of the new fence legislation is a great step, imo.

2. Illegal aliens in the USA need to be deported, plain and simple. Because their lives here are not based in legality. They had their run here, and made lotsa money. Great. But now it's time to go. Sorry. The breaking point has been reached, and the problems have been compounded far too greatly for them to be ignored any longer.

3. And the employers who have been hiring illegals? Well gee, if the almighty dollar hadn't been their primary concern, to the point of hiring illegal immigrants, and shrugging off hard working legal citizens who want better wages- then let them have to raise wages to attract legal citizens, and then raise the prices of their products accordingly. Even if that means for some things the American public has to pay higher prices.

Because those are the prices we should have been paying anyway in accordance with with the rise of living costs and wages across the board. The part of our economy running on illegal labor was a bad dream, that never should have happened in the first place. It was a mistake, that more people should have anticipated. Eisenhower sure did, and hence Operation Wetback. The only way to fix this is to reduce our dependency on this illegal labor and bring the LEGAL American workforce back into play- at the right prices. Politicians have to stop relying on illegal labor help to offset inflation.

4. Get tough on penalties:

A. Seize any and all property obtained by working here illegally. Auction that property, pool the resulting funds, deduct an appropriate administrative fee, and then use the rest for job assistance programs for LEGAL citizens. And maybe some of that should go towards uneployment programs as well, in the appropriate places where it is clear that illegals have had a negative effect on local, LEGAL labor.

B. Imprison any illegals and make the originating country pay for their return to their own country. There is no reason the American taxpayer should have to foot this bill. And if the originating country will not fund their return, then make them work under prison jurisdiction until they earn enough to finance their own deportation. Conditions should be extremely harsh in the prison to make them want to leave. Pronto.

C. Change this stupid ass policy that the border patrol can't chase illegals. DUH! Border patrol policies need to be toughened across the board, allowing an agent to chase them into next week and seize them as long as they are on our side of the border. Provide an authentic green card or go to prison. Period.

D. Increase penalties to employers who still hire them. Severely. We have to take away the economic incentive for illegals to come here. Some local towns and cities are taking it upon themselves to do this already, increasing penalties to anyone who knowingly rents to illegals.

5. Appeal to the American public to get involved, and work together to ease this transition back to a truely legal American workforce. Even if it means reporting your own employer.
________________________________________________________________

In conclusion, it seems to me that these steps, along with severe border enforcement, are the basics. It is cold, harsh reality, and necessary for American self preservation, imo. When a problem gets too overwhelming, it needs to be dealt with. We had a heart- or did we? Was this bad dream the result of lazy politicians, or a greedy corporate america? Did this happen because of competition in the marketplace or Americans having a heart to see to the needs of our southern friends in need of work?

Regardless of the reasons, it must stop.

Hat Tip to TrueAmerican for the excellent post above. I think your assessment and suggestions were great.

I loved the last one that is perhaps one of the biggest problems there is regarding illegals and yes we should turn employers in

Originally posted by shots
Hat Tip to TrueAmerican for the excellent post above. I think your assessment and suggestions were great.

I loved the last one that is perhaps one of the biggest problems there is regarding illegals and yes we should turn employers in

hey, thanks shots!

But really, I think Terral's rebuttals to cyberdude's OP were very very good, on all counts. Clearly Terral's head is in the right place on this, and I agree pretty much lock, stock and barrel.

I am starting to wonder if people like cyberdude really understand the magnitude and gravity of this problem, to be making suggestions like that in the original post. To think of giving amnesty is just dumbfounding to me. Let em break the law, and then reward them for it?

The anchor baby issue is also scam city, and another point to add. If your kid goes and bashes the neighbor's car windshield in, guess who they sue? You. Not your kid. In other words, you are responsible as the parent. Similarly, why then should anchor babies be awarded all the benefits of an american citizenship when the parents are responsible for breaking the law to be here in the first place? That is an issue the kid needs to address with the law-breaking parents, and not hold it against American society when that stupid ass law finally changes. And it needs to be changed. Benefit should never be obtained from breaking the law, whether it be the parents or their kids. It's living a lie- a life in this country that should have never happened here- and the unfortunate reality is that it is the parent's fault.

I think that there's a slight misunderstanding here. It seems that you guys might have the impression that I'm all up for just leaving the doors wide open. That's actually not what I'm for, I think that we should definatly secure the border and prevent more illegals from coming into this country. What I was proposing however was a solution on what to do with the illegals that are already here, and how we can possibly discourage more illegals since no wall will stop a truely determined man.

You guys are absolutely right in that we should punish those who came in illegally. However I think it'd just be unpractical to do so considering that the amount of illegal immigrants in this country is estimated to be in the millions. The wikipedia estimate place's it at about 12 million as of this January, that'd be twelve million people that we'd need to somehow track down, round them up, prove them to be illegal, and then transport them back to which ever country they might've come from. What's even worse is that close seven million of those are estimated to be under the age of twelve.

The rest of you might not agree with me, but my personal code is against punishing a man's family (specifically children) for his mistakes. Most of them have themselves up pretty well in the United States, a lot of those children simply would not survive if you sent them back to Mexico after the life they've lived here in the United States. A lot of children have come to the US, grown up, lost a lot of spanish speaking ability, don't know anyone in Mexico, and are accustomed to the American way of life. Now to try sending them back to Mexico because their parents decided to try to get them a better life (doing it the wrong way I'll admit) just doesn't seem right to me.

Either way it just seems unfeasible to round up twelve million people in a nation of three hundred million and then send them to a country that many of them have not seen in years. It might sound good on paper to send them all back, but I strongly doubt it'll work very well. So I say we may as well minimize the damage by just giving citizenship to those that are already here, or at the very least grant citizenship to the children since we can't just send them back.

What I will agree on is that we definatly need to stop the flow of newly arriving illegal immigrants. Although a wall and some thermal sensors won't stop every single person, it'd make illegal immigration a very small problem. The big problem is that wall won't remove those that are already here, and there's not much we can do about those who're already here. We should've never let this happen, but it did so the best we can do is stop the flow of new illegals and minimize the damage from those that are here.

cyberdude78

Have you ever heard the phrase give them and inch and they take a mile? I have and that is exactly what these illegals are doing, many were given amnesty in the past and that is when their numbers started to increase greatly.

Now as for deportation, yes it would be hard, but it could also have the same effect only greater then Eisenhower's program did. In that case they rounded up 80,000 and others followed voluntarily to the tune of around 800,000 that is roughly a ten fold increase. Imagine how many would follow if we deported 2 million would the numbers that follow be as high? I doubt it but I am sure their numbers would be high just the same although not as high to achieve ten fold. Oh I almost forgot to mention that when the border patrol cracked down earlier this year the crossing rate during that time dropped ten fold in AZ alone.

Hoover also deported roughly 300,000 and many others followed those although the numbers are unknown, so yes deportation can work.

As for your school plan give me a break it is those illegal children who are costing the American taxpayers millions a year in school taxes alone. Heaven only knows how much illegals cost us in medical care alone but I am sure it is also in the millions, it also costs Americans Jobs.

Now employers that want cheap day labor just drive out in the money and round up a pickup full and pay them 5 or 6 bucks an hour in some cases which is under the minimum wage because that is what those employers want to pay.

I also notice you avoided to mention anything about the increased crime they cause, why is that?

What is the first thing they do to get here. Break the law

If they get caught after breaking the law entering the country what do the do? Break the law again when they refuse to appear in court.

The third most likely thing they do is steal a car to get farther away from the border if not rob someone so they can eat. That is assuming they enter via Arizona who has one of the highest crossing rates and number of cars stolen.

I could be wrong but from what you have said; I think you are one of their backers that want them here since you a promoting virtually the same as their activists groups do.


Sorry but I am not buying what you are selling and I say Build the Fence and build it HIGH!

They can apply for legal citizenship as my grandparents did.

.... I have a question. Aside from the fact that they are in the country illegally, what's the problem of having them in the States?

Originally posted by intrepid
.... I have a question. Aside from the fact that they are in the country illegally, what's the problem of having them in the States?

Just a few reasons

They are taking jobs from Americans

They have increased our crime rate dramatically. According to Lou Dobs weekend a recent study done in LA shows for everyone that is arrested once each of them is rearrested 4 times.

Many of them are not paying taxes

The increased numbers of children alone is costing the US taxpayer millions of dollars a year to educate them.

If you can right now turn on Lou Dobbs special edition it is on right now and has many more reasons then I can possibly think of.





[edit on 10/28/2006 by shots]

Originally posted by shots
They are taking jobs from Americans

From what I've read, they are doing jobs that American's won't do for the wage. We've got that here too with immigrants from Asia.

They have increased our crime rate dramatically. According to Lou Dobs weekend a recent study done in LA shows for everyone that is arrested once each of them is rearrested 4 times.

Meh, from the strenght of numbers? Is it a small % that keeps reoffending?

Many of them are not paying taxes

The increased numbers of children alone is costing the US taxpayer millions of dollars a year to educate them.

Here's the crux of the matter as I hear this a LOT. What's wrong with amnesty? Now they are citizens, complete with SS#'s and their employer's have NO choice but to tax them. These problems then go away, more in the public coffers and the drain is gone.

What's wrong with that?

I also have a question......

Who is going to do the work that the illegals do?

I can look into the future and tell you exactly what the solution is going to be....

W is going to grant amnesty to all illegals so his big Corporate campaign contributors can continue to hire cheap labor: Legal American Citizenship is going to be granted on a 3x5 card printed in Spanish and submitted at any post office. A huge contributed to the GOP is Tyson foods but there are many others. Employer legal sanctions are a pitiful joke as they currently stand. Cheap labor is not going end ever. Are there a lot of American Citizens that want to cut up chickens for 8hrs for min wage. I bet not to many.


Build all the fences you want but the highway project to unite the Americas is going to allow the "illegals" to come into this country by the truck loads. And it is going to be built with mainly Mexican labor. Labor contractors are going to flourish, starting in O8. The surveyors are already shooting elevations north of El Paso.

The United States of America has drastically changed and will continue to change thanks to the power of the Mega Corps and their slick well funded lobbiest. The old sayin "Money talks, BS walks" operates big time in DC.

Habla Espanol anyone. If you want more of the same Vote GOP, but the Democrats are as beholden to the Corporate Oligarchy as the GOP. We here in the southwest already feel the winds of change.

It's a brave new world; welcome to the monkey house.



[edit on 28-10-2006 by whaaa]

[edit on 28-10-2006 by whaaa]

[edit on 28-10-2006 by whaaa]

Originally posted by intrepid
From what I've read, they are doing jobs that American's won't do for the wage.

That used to be true but that is no longer the case. Now many companies that employed Americans now hire illegals because they will work for less. The meat packing industry is a good example. Another example would be the building industry they are now hiring anyone that can swing a hammer off street corners for the very same reasons cheap labor. Up until a few years ago those jobs were done by Americans so the excuse Americans will not do those jobs is ludacris.

Meh, from the strenght of numbers? Is it a small % that keeps reoffending?

I just used that as one example I am sure there are more studies that will give similar results if one really wanted to look them up.

Here's the crux of the matter as I hear this a LOT. Now they are citizens, complete with SS#'s and their employer's have NO choice but to tax them. These problems then go away, more in the public coffers and the drain is gone.

What's wrong with that?

Boy that was a real stretch you just took there, now you have made them citizens when that as you well know is not the case they are still illegals until they receive naturalization papers.

A vast majority of those SS#s are fake that is what is wrong with part of that and contrary to what you may think many employers are not, I repeat are not paying or collecting taxes from those with fake SS#s. How do I know that you will ask. Just stand on the same corner they picked them up in the morning and at night when they drop them off they pay them in cash, I have seen it first hand. That as you well know would not be the case if they were collecting taxes etc.

as too your question What's wrong with amnesty? to which I would answer give them an inch and they will take a mile i.e. increase illegal crossings as they did when amnesty was given to them years ago.

[edit on 10/28/2006 by shots]

Originally posted by shots
cyberdude78

Have you ever heard the phrase give them and inch and they take a mile? I have and that is exactly what these illegals are doing, many were given amnesty in the past and that is when their numbers started to increase greatly.

That won't happen if we do this as a two step program, the first step being to build that wall. And by building that wall, I mean build a real concrete wall across the whole border and actuallly fund it, because we know the wall that's going up now is really just a political show. I'll repeat, I'm for securing the border. If we do that then we can offer citizenship without having to worry about even more illegals coming in.

Now as for deportation, yes it would be hard, but it could also have the same effect only greater then Eisenhower's program did. In that case they rounded up 80,000 and others followed voluntarily to the tune of around 800,000 that is roughly a ten fold increase. Imagine how many would follow if we deported 2 million would the numbers that follow be as high? I doubt it but I am sure their numbers would be high just the same although not as high to achieve ten fold. Oh I almost forgot to mention that when the border patrol cracked down earlier this year the crossing rate during that time dropped ten fold in AZ alone.

The problem is we're talking about a number close to twelve million, and the corporate backing to keep them here will prevent them from voluntarily leaving. Securing the border to shut the tap will work, trying to remove millions of people is not going to work. I for one am in area that's right by a city that's loaded with illegals, and the local economy here will most likely go through hell if we try removing all the illegals. That and how're we going to find these illegals to deport them? They're not on any records, the only one's that know about them aren't going to hand them in, so unless we're going to go round up everybody with darker skin I don't see how we're going to deport even half of the illegal immigrants.

Hoover also deported roughly 300,000 and many others followed those although the numbers are unknown, so yes deportation can work.

That was 300,000; we've got around forty times that to deport. Also keep in mind that back then legal citizens were willing to do the lower paying jobs that are almost exclusivley reserved for illegals these days.

As for your school plan give me a break it is those illegal children who are costing the American taxpayers millions a year in school taxes alone. Heaven only knows how much illegals cost us in medical care alone but I am sure it is also in the millions, it also costs Americans Jobs.

Well if they have citizenship then they'll have to pay the taxes. If the continue to not pay taxes then we let the IRS do what it does best.

Now employers that want cheap day labor just drive out in the money and round up a pickup full and pay them 5 or 6 bucks an hour in some cases which is under the minimum wage because that is what those employers want to pay.

You can't do that with a legal citizen, and you most certainly can't do that if you stick a nice big concrete wall on the border. Thus I think that my idea of simaltaneoulsy granting citizenship to those that are here now (not future illegals) while at the same time putting up a wall would prevent this.

I also notice you avoided to mention anything about the increased crime they cause, why is that?

What is the first thing they do to get here. Break the law

If they get caught after breaking the law entering the country what do the do? Break the law again when they refuse to appear in court.

The third most likely thing they do is steal a car to get farther away from the border if not rob someone so they can eat. That is assuming they enter via Arizona who has one of the highest crossing rates and number of cars stolen.

Like I said, I'm in favor of a wall that would prevent crossings down in the southwest. After that I think that the main reason for the high crime rates is it's not because they're illegal, I think it's because most of them live in poverty. I'm not making excuses for those in poverty who commit crimes, but statistically speaking people in poverty are more likely to commit crimes.

Once they've got citizenship then employers won't be able to simply pay them less than minimum wage as they do now, and that will help get them out of poverty. After only a generation or two once the kids are in school the poverty problem should fix itself enough to allow future generations to work their ways to a better life.

I could be wrong but from what you have said; I think you are one of their backers that want them here since you a promoting virtually the same as their activists groups do.

Actually I'm just your average legal American citizen. And I'm not promoting the same thing, their activist groups are generally against the wall.

I say Build the Fence and build it HIGH!

Well at least we agree on that much.

They can apply for legal citizenship as my grandparents did.

Which is what future immigrants should have to.

Originally posted by whaaa
Are there a lot of American Citizens that want to cut up chickens for 8hrs for min wage. I bet not to many.

Not any more they won't. That is because of Tyson. and others within the meat industry that you can thank for that. Years ago Americans were paid piece rate for killing chickens and processing them and they made a very decent living I might add. I am speaking from experience here several members of my family worked in the poultry industry and I know how we lived and what they made in wages.

Patrick Cudahy and Armour are just two within the pork industry that locked out the unions just so they too could hire illegals at day rate and far lower wages. Up until the lockouts it was Americans doing that work not illegals.

You do not even want to get me started on the beef industry I can turn your ears red there

[edit on 10/28/2006 by shots]

The problem is we're talking about a number close to twelve million, and the corporate backing to keep them here will prevent them from voluntarily leaving.

Hogwassh many will leave simply because they know if they are the next to get deported their chances of ever getting here legally are slim to none. You also have to keep in mind many will be forced to follow simply because there is no one to support them.

Originally posted by cyberdude78
The rest of you might not agree with me, but my personal code is against punishing a man's family (specifically children) for his mistakes.

I feel you on this, cyber, and no doubt it is a tough call to make. But this is nothing compared to other mistakes parents make around the globe that result, in some cases, in the DEATH of the children, and/or the parents too. Being moved back to their country of origin is hardly that drastic. I think, in somewhat of a compromise, that maybe there could be a minimum age limit, such as 18, that must be reached under anchor baby conditions before a child could be allowed to stay. Because any child younger than that is still legally under the custody of the parents- and therefore should remain under the parent's care when the parents are deported.

Most of them have themselves up pretty well in the United States, a lot of those children simply would not survive if you sent them back to Mexico after the life they've lived here in the United States. A lot of children have come to the US, grown up, lost a lot of spanish speaking ability, don't know anyone in Mexico, and are accustomed to the American way of life. Now to try sending them back to Mexico because their parents decided to try to get them a better life (doing it the wrong way I'll admit) just doesn't seem right to me.

lol, that's pretty far fetched, cyber. Nopers. You are talking to someone (me) who was yanked at the age of 9 from Boston and taken to live in the Dominican Republic amongst a bunch of natives who had never seen blonde hair before. It was pretty rough at first, but within weeks we were all speaking spanish and getting along with the natives. I'd like to think we survived- although sometimes I wonder.

Either way it just seems unfeasible to round up twelve million people in a nation of three hundred million and then send them to a country that many of them have not seen in years. It might sound good on paper to send them all back, but I strongly doubt it'll work very well. So I say we may as well minimize the damage by just giving citizenship to those that are already here, or at the very least grant citizenship to the children since we can't just send them back.

On that note I'd say see my suggestion above- anchor babies over 18 only get to stay. And their parents get deported, even if they are older. They committed the crime, and they should bear the consequences.

And Intrepid-
You say you have a similar problem in Canada with Asian immigrants and local labor- are you speaking of illegals or legals?

EDT: spelling

[edit on 28-10-2006 by TrueAmerican]

Sorry to hear that you got sent to the Dominican at the age of nine.

Anyhow the age limit of 18 sounds like it'd be a pretty fair compromise so long as we could effectivley deport as many immigrants as we'd need to.

Hi Intrepid :

Intrepid >> Before I post.... I have a question. Aside from the fact that they are in the country illegally, what's the problem of having them in the States?

What part of ILLEGAL are you having trouble understanding? Two people go into a bank and one of those take out money ‘legally.’ How much money does the other guy have to take out ILLEGALLY, before you start having a problem?? Two people go into a hospital and one of them take a baby home ‘legally.’ How many babies must the ILLEGAL take home, before you start having a problem? Every ILLEGAL to falsify documentation in order to gain ILLEGAL employment in this country is stealing the identity of a law abiding citizen. How many ILLEGALS must use the same social security number, before you have a problem? Any moron can check the numbers and realize that if 1000 people are using the same number, that 999 of them are ILLEGALS. Right? That means 999 addresses on 999 employment applications that requires someone’s immediate attention.

How many of the ILLEGALS running too and fro in this country have connections to terrorist cells? You have no clue and neither does the government, because there is no attempt to document who is even in this country. Those overstaying their visas are allowed to roam freely for as long as they wish, because our system is broken, corrupt and none of our so-called ‘leaders’ give a crap. Who is responsible when ILLEGALS rob our banks, inundate our social services in droves, bankrupt our county budgets cleaning up after them and even when they murder law abiding citizens? Is one American life worth allowing millions of ILLEGALS free access to everything we have worked so hard to build for our posterity? The fact that you can ask the question above is evidence that our House and Senate are falling down on the job and fail to properly educate Americans on the potentially FATAL situation facing us with 10’s of millions of ILLEGALS. You give these ‘backdoor’ ILLEGALS citizenship and another 100 million will follow. How many billions of ILLEGALS will you eventually recognize as a problem?

Why should our children obey the smallest law, when Bush cannot enforce immigration laws already on the books? Your question leads us down the slippery slope of LAWLESSNESS, which is exactly what you get when everyone decides which laws to enforce and obey. What if someone decides to ignore the law against murder? Apart from the fact that murder is ILLEGAL, what’s the problem with having ‘murderers’ in the United States? Uhhhh, what part of ILLEGAL are you having trouble understanding???

Every one of the ILLEGALS needs to go home and come back in the ‘legal’ front door. Then nobody will have a problem with any of them being in the United States.

GL seeing the difference,

Terral

The problem with illegal immigrants already in this country is that they need to work to support themselves and their families.

But many once they receive amnesty will just go take advantage of our system and just live off it.

Yes many with enough education and training will be able to advance, but those are scarce and they already work for a better way of life.

What many do not understand is that I have worked with illegal immigrants and these people are hard working but many don't even know how to read or write, but they can work menial works under pay where they are good at.

Once part of the system they will not be working in menial works under pay they will fall in our broken system and live up just like others that has been doing that for decades.

It will be more burden to the tax payer and the already dying middle class in this country.