God, eternity

Originally posted by thehumbleone
I have another thought on the subject. What if everything that exists right now is imagined by god and everything we see only exists because god is imagining it in his mind?

If this were the case, would it make any significant difference to us? I can't see how somebody would be able to tell a perfectly self-consistent subjective reality from an objective one. And if we can't tell them apart, that's as good as saying there is no difference. Does that seem to make sense to you, or do you feel there is a difference between God's dream and the real world?

Ersatz, i checked out the link, thanks, I dont really know what this has to do with the search for truth but thanks, it gave me something to kill some time with. All im trying to say is dont think that us humans know everything. i heard someone say we dont know one percent of anything and this is true. what are we humans to claim we know how this place came to be, compared to eternity we are but "dust in the wind" as the song says. we are here today and gone tommorow as if it was all a dream. I could go on and on about this but like i said, its your choice to believe what you want. I think we should listen to Astyanax idea and get back to the original discussion. if you want to debate the search for truth on another post please feel free to create one, i'll be glad to discuss this with you.

Astyanax, good ideas there, check out my other post on the dream world and this world, we got some discussion going on there.

Originally posted by thehumbleone
Ersatz, i checked out the link, thanks, I dont really know what this has to do with the search for truth but thanks, it gave me something to kill some time with. All im trying to say is dont think that us humans know everything. i heard someone say we dont know one percent of anything and this is true. what are we humans to claim we know how this place came to be, compared to eternity we are but "dust in the wind" as the song says. we are here today and gone tommorow as if it was all a dream. I could go on and on about this but like i said, its your choice to believe what you want. I think we should listen to Astyanax idea and get back to the original discussion. if you want to debate the search for truth on another post please feel free to create one, i'll be glad to discuss this with you.

The link I gave you was in response to your meaningless God and science link, I am sorry you were not able to draw any deeper significance from it.
I agree with you that humans do not know everything; I am convinced that doubt is the prerequisite to knowledge.
With regards to the search for truth, one first needs to establish what Truth is; I am a great believer of the ancient injunction inscribed over the temple of Apollo at Delphi.
The teachings held that to know another or anything, we must first know ourselves.

I do not claim that I know how "this place came to be" but it is inevitable that we all try and form an opinion.
In so doing I found that science helps more than religion because religion makes extraordinary claims without backing them up.

Oddly enough, Shakespeare had the same question about dreams and existence in his famous quotation:

To be or not to be (Shakespeare said)
To do is to be (Descartes added)
Do be do be do (Sinatra decided)

I see what you're saying when you say "I found that science helps more than religion because religion makes extraordinary claims without backing them up." It's just everytime i think about the big bang i can't get past what happened before that and what caused it, i find my answer to be something that is supernatural caused it. besides, science doesnt help me answer the questions that really matter in life, such as, why am I here? whats my purpose in life? where did i come from? whats gonna happen after i die? Thanks for sharing your opinion Ersatz.

Originally posted by thehumbleone
It's just everytime i think about the big bang i can't get past what happened before that...

Think of it like this.

Space is not infinite. Physicists, whose field of study is matters of this kind, generally agree that the universe has finite physical dimensions. Concepts such as parallel worlds and higher dimensions don't really affect the issue, by the way: space is finite. There is no space outside the universe. In fact, the concept 'outside the universe' is meaningless.

Time is like space; in fact, the branch of physics known as relativity speaks of them as aspects of one and the same thing: spacetime. Like space, time is finite. It only started going when the Big Bang happened, and when the universe has reached a state of uniform energy distribution, it will stop. Time cannot exist when no events are occurring, any more than space can exist without matter to define it.

So to ask 'what came before the Big Bang?' is meaningless. Nothing came before the Big Bang, because there was no 'before'.

...and what caused it.

If there was no before, then the question of a cause becomes irrelevant. Causation implies priority. In this one, unique case there could be no priority.

Space is not infinite; time is not eternal. Take that on board and the rest is easy.

science doesnt help me answer the questions that really matter in life, such as, why am I here? whats my purpose in life? where did i come from? whats gonna happen after i die?

Have you tried evolutionary biology? It answers all those questions quite satisfactorily.

1. Why am I here?

You are here in order to protect, preserve and propagate your genes. This is what you, like all living creatures, have evolved to do.

2. What's my purpose in life?

Primary: to survive, produce offspring and nurture them until they are able to survive without your help and reproduce in their turn.

Secondary: to contribute towards the survival and propagation of related genes -- the more closely related the better, but ultimately, your purpose is to contribute towards the survival and propagation of the entire human genome, even if you yourself have never had a child. Not everybody fulfils their purpose in life, by the way.

3. Where did I come from?

How far back do you want to go? Your parents? Australopithecus africanus? The first living creatures to inhabit dry land? The primordial slime that birthed us all? Mother Earth (the physical elements which comprised that slime)? The exploding stars from which those elements originally came? The primodial nebula? The Big Bang?

4. What's gonna happen after I die?

Nothing. You die and that's the end of it. But life goes on...

Some people, I know, find these answers somehow unsatisfactory. I'm sorry if you are one of them, but really, it's always better to face facts, and these are -- rather evidently, nowadays -- the facts.

Are you kidding me Astyanax, never have i even considered 1 and 2 the reason why i am here, i consider my purpose to be much greater than that. Thats cool if you want to lower yourself down to an animals level, please just dont do it to me. and as for the death thing, how could you say for certain that nothing happens if you have not died yet? and even when you do die you won't be able to tell us because, 1. nobody has ever been known to come back from the world of the dead, well except for one man, the initials of his name are J.C. and 2. the other possibility being eternal nothingness, which means you wont even know you ever existed.


[edit on 23-10-2006 by thehumbleone]

Originally posted by thehumbleone
never have i even considered 1 and 2 the reason why i am here, i consider my purpose to be much greater than that. Thats cool if you want to lower yourself down to an animals level, please just dont do it to me.

Do you know what this purpose is? And if you do, would you like to share it with us?

I am curious to learn what 'greater' purpose than survival and reproduction there could be in life. I should also like to know why and in what way you consider animals -- or any life-form, for that matter -- 'below' yourself.

We could talk about these matters some more, if you like. A good place to start would be to examine some of the unspoken assumptions in your statement above. What you have written so far in this thread indicates that you are a thinking person with a strong philosophical bent. Well, then -- have you thought about these things you are saying, or are you just repeating what you have been taught without examining what those statements really imply?

(I shall respectfully assume that you have better support for your ideas than ''cause the Bible tells me so'.)

as for the death thing, how could you say for certain that nothing happens if you have not died yet?

Well, I can say this for certain because

nobody has ever been known to come back from the world of the dead.

I would say that's a pretty telling indictment of belief in life after death, wouldn't you?

Until there is some evidence that gives us reason to believe in life after death, why should we? Animals are alive, then they die. Gone. Kaput. It's a pretty straightforward process and nobody claims that elephants and butterflies have immortal souls. Humans are animals too -- why should we imagine things are any different for us?

Well, it's easy enough to see why. The thought of ceasing to exist so terrifies us that we refuse to believe it will happen.

There is another reason. It is the same reason you have trouble believing that nothing came before the Big Bang. It has to do with the internal wiring of your brain (everybody's brain, actually; I don't mean to get personal).

As organisms, we have evolved certain ways of making useful sense of the information we receive from the environment. One of these is the perception of duration and sequentiality -- of time passing. It seems to be hardwired into us and makes it difficult (though, as we have seen, not impossible) to imagine a state in which time does not pass.

Another of these mechanisms is a sense of identity (consciousness, ego, soul, call it what you will) that serves to create a boundary between the organism ('me') and its environment. ('not me') Again, this seems to be pretty much hard-wired in, which makes it difficult for us to conceive of the world existing without ourselves in it.

But just because we can't conceive of it don't mean it ain't so.

I can think of a whole lot of other stuff to say, but I'll leave it for the present. Your turn.

The greater purpose i am talking about is that i truly believe each and every one of us was put here to know the infinite, immortal, and all powerful God. as you might have guessed by now, i am a christian and this is what the truth is, not what I think it is. that we can know God through Jesus Christ and have immortal life. Of course i can only show you so much proof, you'll eventually have to take that leap of faith for yourself. There is 100% proof that every one of us will get one day, that will be on the day that we die, which we all are moving ever closer to everyday. Although i don't recommend this route if you have not accepted Christ, but i really don't want to bore you with preaching so let me move on. How pathetic this life would be IF as you say the only reason we're here is to reproduce. to say that we are the same as animals is truly inconcievable. This is the kind of thinking that spawned the likes of Hilter. Can an animal make a moral judgement? Can he reason and ponder on the mysteries of life? I also disagree with you that the reason that death frightens us is because we can't imagine not existing. how could you imagine not existing if you exist?!?! it's pointless thinking about it. You're trying to think of something you can't conceive, we wouldn't even know we existed, what would there be to fear? The real reason i think people are afraid to die is what if there is something after death and cosequences for our actions here on earth. This is usually the main reason people don't want there to be a God, but don't worry he created an escape for us. Also since you are talking about the wiring of the brain i would like to know what you think of the recent scientific evidence that the brain is hard wired for belief. what purpose would this serve if we are only animals or like you said " are here in order to protect, preserve and propagate your genes. This is what you, like all living creatures, have evolved to do. "
If you had read my previous reply more carefully you would have read that there is one man who did come back from the world of the dead. The initials of his name are J.C. Can you guess who he is?


"For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse."

(Romans 1:20)












[edit on 24-10-2006 by thehumbleone]

Originally posted by thehumbleone
The greater purpose i am talking about is that i truly believe each and every one of us was put here to know the infinite, immortal, and all powerful God. as you might have guessed by now, i am a christian and this is what the truth is, not what I think it is. that we can know God through Jesus Christ and have immortal life.

The God delusion.

There is 100% proof that every one of us will get one day, that will be on the day that we die, which we all are moving ever closer to everyday.

100% proof, really!!

This is the kind of thinking that spawned the likes of Hilter.

propaganda

Can he reason and ponder on the mysteries of life?

Neither can people who have only faith/fanaticism at their disposal, animals are more honest, they do not lie nor are they hypocritical.
Had you stated that you were a fanatical christian we would have all wasted less time.

If you had read my previous reply more carefully you would have read that there is one man who did come back from the world of the dead. The initials of his name are J.C. Can you guess who he is?

Any relation to Father Xmas?

Originally posted by thehumbleone
The greater purpose i am talking about is that i truly believe each and every one of us was put here to know the infinite, immortal, and all powerful God...

To me, that's not a purpose, that's an aspiration. A powerful personal aspiration. But tell me, what purpose is served by our coming to 'know God' that God -- assuming for a moment such a being exists -- could not accomplish by itself, without our puny aid?

as you might have guessed by now, i am a christian

Yes indeed, this was apparent from the outset.

this is what the truth is. Of course i can only show you so much proof, you'll eventually have to take that leap of faith for yourself.

Faith is just another name for wishing. Being of inquiring mind, I prefer curiosity as a route to knowledge.

How pathetic this life would be IF as you say the only reason we're here is to reproduce.

I don't see what's so pathetic about it. By surviving and reproducing, we help spread life across the universe. We participate in the eternal struggle against entropy, forging order out of chaos and meaning out of noise. It may be that our descendants will one day participate in the evolution a being truly worthy of the name of God. I'd much rather be part of that than a pawn or puppet of some egotistical, bad-tempered tribal deity who inflicts haemorrhoids on his enemies and misery on his friends.

Why to say that we are the same as animals is truly inconcievable. This is the kind of thinking that spawned the likes of Hilter.

I'm afraid you've got that completely wrong. Hitler and his cronies were steeped to the gills in Higher Purpose -- the mangled myth of the Aryan Superman, the sacred mission of the Germanic peoples, Lebensraum, the whole debased mystery-cult of Nazism. Rational thought and hard questions were not very popular with the Nazis -- what they demanded from their followers and subjects was belief. No room for infidels under the swastika.

Can an animal make a moral judgement?

No, but how is this an indication of human superiority?

Can (an animal) reason and ponder on the mysteries of life?

No, and neither can religious people, who have to take whatever answers their religion dishes out.

I also disagree with you that the reason that death frightens us is because we can't imagine not existing. how could you imagine not existing if you exist?!?!

That is not what I said. I said we can't bear the thought of not existing. For all our self-deluding tales of heaven and hell, we're animals with an instinctive sense of self-preservation, part of which is a fear of death.

I also said there was another reason why we can't imagine not existing, which is that our brains are wired in such a way as to make this nearly impossible. But that was a separate point.

we wouldn't even know we existed, what would there be to fear?

Not existing. Dying. Being snuffed out. The urge to live and the fear of death are essential, primordial drives, and it's no good pretending otherwise.

hard-wired for belief

Yes. In our parents. An obviously useful evolutionary adaptation.

The initials of his name are J.C. Can you guess who he is?

Well, I don't suppose you meant that fellow who played viola with the Velvet Underground...

Originally posted by AstyanaxFaith is just another name for wishing. Being of inquiring mind, I prefer curiosity as a route to knowledge.

curiosity led me to find god.

Once an athiest, I believed firmly that when you die, there is nothing more, believed firmly that we are a complete fluke of nature, believed firmly that the only reason we're here is to pro-create and dissolve. there is no heaven, there is no hell, god is made up by human kind to justify their lives in someway meaningful.

well, that was until I got a glimpse of 'god,' and it has humbled me forever.

now, i don't believe, and never will believe in 'organized' religion because i feel they are corporations built upon controlling the masses and making tons of money. i will never follow that. no religion should be built upon making money.

anyhow...i know i can't divulge too much information on drug related experiences, but in short i think there 'clues' left here by god to 'remember' what we are. One of these clues is left in the form of a mushroom on earth, and when ingested by humans, can take the blinders off of normal reality, and enter the real reality...

in my opinion, we are all god...an infinite god that is tumbling through eternity one living being at a time. why??? because its possible, and possibilty is the prime component of infinity - impossible or not. god is the energy source of all things. we can never know for certain what's after life, but what i do know is that I am here right now...if you think that atoms can arrange themselves in a manner to become self aware arbitrarily, then you're mistaken. there is absolute purpose to everything, and its as simple as experience. the universe is self aware...it is all one thing which appears seperated to the untrained eye. this awareness is what you'd call god i guess. after having an overwhelming spiritual experience i can't help but believe there is an unending force of pure energy that always has been and always will be. what i am is a reality of its imagination (or my own imagination)...given the gift of life in order to experience.

just my opinion based on experience. take it as you may.

i still have many questions as does anyone. i don't believe anymore that science can answer the fundamentals. as much as i admire and follow science, it simply can't tell me how one day i sprang into existence. its the impossible made possible...









[edit on 25-10-2006 by psilogod]

To me, that's not a purpose, that's an aspiration. A powerful personal aspiration. But tell me, what purpose is served by our coming to 'know God' that God -- assuming for a moment such a being exists -- could not accomplish by itself, without our puny aid?

I won't even pretend to answer this one, how can i know what a being such as god thinks?

Faith is just another name for wishing. Being of inquiring mind, I prefer curiosity as a route to knowledge.

I agree, i also prefer curiosity, i started out an atheist like you and this is where my search for truth finally ended.

I don't see what's so pathetic about it. By surviving and reproducing, we help spread life across the universe. We participate in the eternal struggle against entropy, forging order out of chaos and meaning out of noise. It may be that our descendants will one day participate in the evolution a being truly worthy of the name of God.

ha ha ha!!! who do you think you're kidding. the way things are looking right now we'll probably wipe ourselves out with nuclear war, and that not including global warming and eventually running out of our planets resources. I dont know, the future looks pretty grim for the human race, i dont think you'll get to see your dream of a being evolving into a "god".

I'd much rather be part of that than a pawn or puppet of some egotistical, bad-tempered tribal deity who inflicts haemorrhoids on his enemies and misery on his friends.

hmmm? sounds like you got some sort of grudge against god. sorry, but god is who he is and there is nothing you can do about that. you're either with him or against him.

I'm afraid you've got that completely wrong. Hitler and his cronies were steeped to the gills in Higher Purpose -- the mangled myth of the Aryan Superman, the sacred mission of the Germanic peoples, Lebensraum, the whole debased mystery-cult of Nazism. Rational thought and hard questions were not very popular with the Nazis -- what they demanded from their followers and subjects was belief. No room for infidels under the swastika.

I disagree, i believe this was propaganda by Hitler to get the people believing in something, if you could get the people to believe something so strongly then they wont care what it takes to get it.

No, but how is this an indication of human superiority?

well in case you didnt notice, this is obviously of our mental superiority.

No, and neither can religious people, who have to take whatever answers their religion dishes out.

I obviously disagree with you here, some of the most intelligent people have been religious or believed in some deity, such as, isaac newton, st. augustine, thomas aquinas ,plato, aristotle, albert einstein.

Not existing. Dying. Being snuffed out. The urge to live and the fear of death are essential, primordial drives, and it's no good pretending otherwise.

hmmm? well i guess i must not be human because i dont fear this at all. myself being a human that can reason, i truly have to ask myself why would we fear death? does it sound logical or reasonable to fear something that is inevitable?

The urge to live and the fear of death are essential, primordial drives, and it's no good pretending otherwise

I laughed at this one, if thats the case then why are there so many humans who take their own lives? Have you ever seen an animal take its own life? I'll tell you what, us humans must be craziest animal on the planet!! LOL! I mean, we just do things that completely go against evolution.it's madness i tell you,madddnesssss!!!! LOL!!

Well, I don't suppose you meant that fellow who played viola with the Velvet Underground...

LOL!!! no, but that is a pretty good band though. I'm talking about the greatest revolutionary of all time, Jesus Christ.






[edit on 25-10-2006 by thehumbleone]

Well, thehumbleone, I think this is where our stimulating little colloquy must come to an end. The tone of your last post, especially the proliferations of 'LOLs' at the end, clearly indicates that things are getting a little warm chez la maison d'humble. Time for this godless heretic to bow out.

When the premises of argument become personal and faith-based, there is simply no point in arguing any more. This was inevitable, of course -- it always is with religious people, hence my reluctance to discuss these issues with you in the first place -- but I thought it might be worth our while to see how far we could take this before communication started to break down. As it turns out, it wasn't very far at all.

But at least we tried.