God, eternity

Hi everyone, this is my first thread here so please excuse me if this looks messy.
Anyways, the other day i was just thinking about how god has always existed from eternity, and since we know that god knows everything that has ever happened or will ever happen, does that also mean since he knew that he would create something, namely us humans, that we have somehow always existed since we were in gods mind? god always knew he would create you and me so we have existed eternally in his mind!!! PRETTY CRAZY HUH!!!

[edit on 19-10-2006 by thehumbleone]

Yes maybe God imagined us, in the form we are now. A bit like how you imagine a house would look like, from the foundations, but without the inner workings like electric, gas, pipework etc. But we weren't self-aware hence we didn't know about this. That could be an explanation

Not hard to think about really. If we were created, and existed with no idea of our own self-awareness of our own being, it would theoretically the same as mr.God creating us while we officially don't exist to others or the world in general. An outside observer, who is self-aware, ie. mr God could confirm we exist but not ourselves, we would just "be" I think.

[edit on 19-10-2006 by SteveG]

The idea that all things exist as 'forms', eternal, idealized versions of their physical selves, goes back to Plato. And yes, these forms were conceived of as existing in the mind of God -- not the Christian God, obviously, but Plato was a monotheist too. So yes, the idea that you existed (in idealized form, whatever that means) in God's mind before you were actually born is far from new.

Of course, this concept presupposes belief in a God. I'm afraid it is not true to say that 'we know that God knows everything'. We don't know anything of the kind. We don't even know that God exists. Some people like to believe in God; that's their privilege, but it doesn't mean a thing as far as the rest of us are concerned.

Correct. Take all the attributes that you know God to have and apply them to the reality, consciousness, existence, and (infinite/eternal)universe that you live in. You are with God, God is with you, you are within God and God is within you.

[edit on 19-10-2006 by UbiquitousInfiniteReality]

Originally posted by thehumbleone
Hi everyone, this is my first thread here so please excuse me if this looks messy.
Anyways, the other day i was just thinking about how god has always existed from eternity, and since we know that god knows everything that has ever happened or will ever happen, does that also mean since he knew that he would create something, namely us humans, that we have somehow always existed since we were in gods mind? god always knew he would create you and me so we have existed eternally in his mind!!! PRETTY CRAZY HUH!!!

[edit on 19-10-2006 by thehumbleone]

I am going to take issue with something you said.

"since we know that god knows everything that has ever happened or will ever happen"

Sorry, but that is ridiculous. First off it implies that we know a god even exists. That is false. No matter how much faith and belief you have, you still don't know. The act of having faith is "believing without proof". Belief is not knowledge, it is more closely related to hope. With that being said, the statement that a god knows the future must also be incorrect. Since it is belief and not knowledge.

Normally I would have left this alone. That is because usually people say "I believe", or "I know". If you want to think you "know" this that is your decision even though it is wrong. Just try not to use words like "WE". Using that word implies that I know those things. Even if I believe them, I could never know them. Not in this lifetime at least providing there is a next.

Sight2reality. Your name says it all. Go look in the mirror and ask yourself if God exists. If you still don't believe then come back and we will chat.

♥~Infinite love and eternal peace~♥

(your being is your proof of God, your ability to question God is your proof of God)

[edit on 19-10-2006 by UbiquitousInfiniteReality]

Originally posted by UbiquitousInfiniteReality

Infinite love and eternal peace.

(your being is your proof of God)

Wouldn't that be boring!

If my being is proof of God, what is evil proof of?

God is supposed to be Omni everything, including Omnibenevolent, which means that He does not like Evil.

And yet evil exists (in big doses), three options then:

1) God does not know evil is there (not Omniscient)

2) God knows evil is there but cannot do anything about it (not Omnipotent)

3) God knows evil is there but will not do anything about it (Malevolent)

We must stop blaming God. God is with you, you are with God, God is within you and you are within God. Blame is only an escape from your own responsibility. Existence (God) is perfect the way that it is. Love and evil are entities of their own. God is perfect. Do you see now? You are perfect. What do you wish to do with this perfection that God has blessed you with? You are now your own God, become omnibenevolent, become omnisentient, become omniscient, become omnipotent... become the existence that you are. Manifest your being, manifest your God, manifest your Heaven. Do not even fear nothing... fear does not exist as does nothing.

♥~Infinite love and eternal peace~♥

[edit on 19-10-2006 by UbiquitousInfiniteReality]

Ersatz, i see what you are trying to say, but i question how you come up with your concept of evil since you say that evil exists i wonder if this is what you came up with on your own, or do you think that this knowledge was already placed within us? some people say the concept of good is part of the evolutionary process that benefits the person but if that is true i wonder why there are many instances of people giving up there life to save someone else, such as a soldier jumping on top of a grenade to save other people. if evolution is true what benefit would an action like this have for the person. evolution is selfish and only cares about itself, so to me, actions like this just would not have any place in this world if evolution is true. this completely goes against the theory of adapting to survive, cause in evolution everything is about survivng at all costs.

[edit on 19-10-2006 by thehumbleone]

[edit on 19-10-2006 by thehumbleone]

Originally posted by thehumbleone
i see what you are trying to say, but i question how you come up with your concept of evil... i wonder if this is what you came up with on your own, or do you think that this knowledge [of evil] was already placed within us?

Well, this God people like to talk so much about is supposed to be omniscient. It must, therefore, know the difference between good and evil. So if we have all existed for eternity in the mind of God, we existed side by side with the knowledge of good and evil there. Maybe we became infected with it.

some people say the concept of good is part of the evolutionary process that benefits the person but if that is true i wonder why there are many instances of people giving up there life to save someone else, such as a soldier jumping on top of a grenade to save other people. if evolution is true what benefit would an action like this have for the person. evolution is selfish and only cares about itself, so to me, actions like this just would not have any place in this world if evolution is true. this completely goes against the theory of adapting to survive, cause in evolution everything is about survivng at all costs.

Yes, this apparent paradox troubled evolutionary biologists for a long time. It has been explained, however. See this Wikipedia piece on altruism.

Altruism refers to behavior by an individual that increases the fitness of another individual while decreasing the fitness of the actor. This would appear to be counter-intuitive if one presumes that natural selection acts on the individual. Natural selection, however, acts on the gene pool of the subjects, not on each subject individually. Recent developments in game theory (look into ultimatum game) have provided some explanations for apparent altruism, as have traditional evolutionary analyses.

You'll find more on the subject in the works of E.O. Wilson and Richard Dawkins, among others. I urge you to follow it up. It will improve your understanding of evolution and even, perhaps, help you find answers to some of the Big Questions that trouble every thinking person.

Originally posted by thehumbleone
Ersatz, i see what you are trying to say, but i question how you come up with your concept of evil since you say that evil exists i wonder if this is what you came up with on your own, or do you think that this knowledge was already placed within us? some people say the concept of good is part of the evolutionary process that benefits the person but if that is true i wonder why there are many instances of people giving up there life to save someone else, such as a soldier jumping on top of a grenade to save other people. if evolution is true what benefit would an action like this have for the person. evolution is selfish and only cares about itself, so to me, actions like this just would not have any place in this world if evolution is true. this completely goes against the theory of adapting to survive, cause in evolution everything is about survivng at all costs.

What Astyanax says about altruism is correct, also, when you are with people for a long time you form bonds of friendship, they become like family, part of the same team.
It is a subconscious part of the pack mentality that the important individuals in the group survive because they can keep the group going.

You might give your life up for your mother, brother or father because you love them , because they are part of your pack and it is important that your pack/tribe survive for the genes to continue.
In the case of soldiers you want your country to continue.
Heroism, altruism,friendship, love etc... exist without this or that god or priest.

Astyanax, Ersatz, if you guys believe in the theory of evolution then surely you must believe in the big bang. how could something come out of nothing? if the big bang is true what caused the first movement? In the end, we are humans who have the ability to reason and think and we must ask ourselves why something exists at all instead of nothing. its ridiculous to me to think that such an awesome world just happened for no apparent reason and that it somehow exists with no purpose or direction. you agree that there is such a thing hunger dont you? well, there is such a thing as food to satisfy that hunger. why would humans have a deep desire for a relationship with the creator if there is no such thing as a god to satisfy that desire, to me the desire to know god proves he exist just as hunger proves that there is such a thing as food, or did we somehow develop this desire by some evolutionary process that would benefit us by constantly looking for some pie in the sky? the majority of the world believes in some sort of god, atheists are among the minority. i wonder why would that be? HMMMM???

Originally posted by thehumbleone
Astyanax, Ersatz, if you guys believe in the theory of evolution then surely you must believe in the big bang. how could something come out of nothing? if the big bang is true what caused the first movement? In the end, we are humans who have the ability to reason and think and we must ask ourselves why something exists at all instead of nothing.

People used to think that the Earth was flat and that the Sun went round it,God used to be behind a cloud and cause thunder and lightning, thanks to science we have progressed from those days. I do not know what caused the Big Bang but I am pretty certain it was not Yahweh or Allah. If you feel that they did it, feel free.

its ridiculous to me to think that such an awesome world just happened for no apparent reason and that it somehow exists with no purpose or direction. you agree that there is such a thing hunger dont you? well, there is such a thing as food to satisfy that hunger. why would humans have a deep desire for a relationship with the creator if there is no such thing as a god to satisfy that desire, to me the desire to know god proves he exist just as hunger proves that there is such a thing as food, or did we somehow develop this desire by some evolutionary process that would benefit us by constantly looking for some pie in the sky? the majority of the world believes in some sort of god, atheists are among the minority. i wonder why would that be? HMMMM???

So you are saying that hunger proves God? What does lust prove ? Envy prove? Stupidity prove?

I used to believe in Father Xmas when I was a kid, slowly I grew out of that; same as I did with Jesus and God and I now feel a balanced grown up, only sheep need a Shepard.
I am certainly not going to believe what some priest tells me. In the last two thousand years organized religion has tortured and killed millions of people. People are still killing each other in the name of God.
Gods are fragile things; they may be killed by a whiff of science or a dose of common sense.
There is no rational evidence for the existence of God and in the words of Galileo:
"I do not think it is necessary to believe that the same God who has given us our senses, reason, and intelligence wished us to abandon their use".

I know this isn't directed at me, but... lust is good as long as it entails love. Without love lust is a lack of 'God'. Stupidity is a lack of 'God'. When will people get off of the Big Bang that never occured? Anyway, just wanted to clear that up. It is my duty.

♥~Infinite Love and Eternal Peace~♥
@::Bloom::@

Ersatz, i'm saying that a desire to know God can prove him, the majority of people have this desire, why would we have it? people don't desire things that dont exist do they? What is another thing that most humans desire? it would probably be happiness right? you know that in this world there is mostly misery with moments of happiness to far and few in between. why would we desire happiness if we had not experienced this feeling somewhere before? what is joy? how could i say i want to experience happiness and joy if i had not had the knowledge of these things called "Joy" or "happiness" placed in me? surely i didnt make up the desire for these things if they did not exist. Recent scientific evidence exists that says the human brain is hardwired for belief. why would evolution do that to us? what would be the purpose of desiring something false? you cant tell me that every human doesnt desire something more than this life, athiest or not. in this life i have found out that nothing here can completely satisfy me, which probably means that i wasnt created for this place. A man cant tell you what a straight line is if he has no concept of what a straight line is right? so where did this desire for something more than this life come from? i also disagree with you about what you said that organized religion has done. surely, if you have ever read what Jesus said and if every human would truly follow what he said, these atrocities would never have happened. could you imagine how happy this place would be if we could all follow what jesus taught. there would be no murder or violence or wars. so dont blame god for this. these are only the acts of foolish fallible human beings. Its true, there is no evidence which can prove god exists 100%, but there is plenty of rational evidence that suggests that he does. also, to say there is no god is to make an absolute statement, and to do this you will need to know every single thing about the universe, for instance you would need to know exactly how many stars and galaxies there are in the universe, how many grains of sand there are on the entire planet combined, what happens after we die etc. For example, if i was to tell you there is no gold in mexico i would have to know every single thing about mexico, whats under every rock, what is in every cave, etc. But now if i would tell you there is gold in mexico this would be much easier to prove, all i would have to do is go to a jewelry store or look inside someones mouth to see if they have a gold filling. Is believing in god really that hard? to quote the founding fathers, "we hold these truths to be self evident." In the end, that is a leap of faith you'll have to decide to make for yourself. I also recommend that you check out this website, www.godandscience.org Sorry, i dont know how to put the link here. Have A Good Day!!!!

"For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse." (Romans 1:20)













[edit on 20-10-2006 by thehumbleone]

Originally posted by thehumbleone
Astyanax, Ersatz, if you guys believe in the theory of evolution then surely you must believe in the big bang. how could something come out of nothing? if the big bang is true...

I know you're the original poster, but do you really want to run your own thread off the rails and into a pointless mire of arguments about evolution, the Big Bang and the existence (or nonexistence) of God? I would be terribly bored, and quite disappointed, if you did.

There are a zillion threads on this site devoted to thrashing out those unwinnable debates. I thought this one was about something else. I was attracted to it because it contained an unusual (if not exactly original) idea -- the idea that we are or were thoughts in the mind of God. I reckoned that would make for an interesting discussion. It's a philosophical question; our personal beliefs need not come into it at all.

So if that's what you want to talk about, let's talk. But if you just want to argue about how evolution and the Big Bang are a pile of scientific horse manure, count me out.

[edit on 20-10-2006 by thehumbleone]

I'll try to keep things on the original discussion from now on.

I have another thought on the subject. What if everything that exists right now is imagined by god and everything we see only exists because god is imagining it in his mind? I kinda wonder if we are just a dream of God.

[edit on 20-10-2006 by thehumbleone]

Originally posted by thehumbleone
I also recommend that you check out this website, www.godandscience.org Sorry, i dont know how to put the link here. Have A Good Day!!!!

Thanks for the link; quite frankly I don't know where to begin but sometimes an illustration is better than a thousand stories.
I am going to give you a link that differs from the one you chose in as far that it is very short(less than 30 seconds) and it is honest (does not require donations).
www.ecardtricks.com...
In an oblique way is similar to your link..
Can you guess what the similarities are?
If you work it out you will understand the basis of all organized religions.
Let me know what you think..