Where are the Bush supporters now??

Originally posted by Waiting2awake
Come on man. WMD's were false, and were based on poor intelligence that no one bought other than those that were trying to make it fit.

That is entirely incorrect. No one, not the inspectors, not the UN, and not Russia, France, Germany, or anyone else, was saying that Iraq had no WMD. AND Iraq had secret chemical plants, mobile chemical labs, and chemical munitions, as was ultimately revealed.

Iraq was never a threat. They had no WMD's, had allowed the UN in there and was doing EVERYthing they were asked to do.

This is actually false. The did not disclose their weapons programs, and the inspectors were not able to find things like the secret chemical plant, the mobile chemical lab, or even the buried chemical munuitions. The war showed that hussein was lying, that the inspectors were unable to perform any of their functions, and that he was ready to start building WMD the moment the sanctions were lifted.

if THAT was the reason there are many better countries to go after than Iraq which was tied down tight and couldn't sneeze without the world knowing it. Meanwhile, Saudi Arberia(sp?)

As I noted, saudi arabia and others can be manipulated through diplomacy, economy, and threat of violence. Iraq couldn't. Iraq was already being hit with the most the international community would hit it with, crippling sanctions. And the Baathist regime still refused kept its chemical weapons infrastructure and WMD programmes a secret and still funded international terrorist organizations.

do you really beleive that anything that you wrote about the WMD's, Iraq being a threat or some Islamic cultural war is what caused this?

On the weapons, absolutely, no one disputes it. They didn't have nukes, or weaponized anthrax, or a supply of ready to use mustard gas bombs, correct. But they were covering up their WMD programmes, well enough to fool the inspectors.

As far as the 'cultural war', the islamist militants are essentially correct, the west has supported terrible regimes that were horrible to their own people but were ammenable to the desires of the west. The islamists say 'so lets put and end to that by killing those regimes, and then using terror attacks on western civilians to scare them out of the middle east forever, then we'll establish a proper islamic theocracy'. The West is now saying 'you're right, we screwed up, we're now going to promote democracy'.

That, at least, is the logic of the global war on terror. Personally, I don't think that they are doing a very good job of it.

[edit on 12-10-2006 by Nygdan]

Originally posted by half_minded

We are criticizing Bush, not his followers. We are merely encouraging the followers to open their eyes and not just follow Bush blindly.

If you have a different conclusion than state it here, instead of constantly bashing the bush haters of posting against Bush.

The conclusion is simple.

Your veiled assumption that you are opening my eyes, or anyone else for that matter is exactly what is being discussed. Your assumption that you perhaps have information that I/we do not possess or even that you are more intelligent than those that support President Bush. That is completely laughable.

Supporting the President in no way implies a lack of understanding, quite the contrary. We have not fallen for the "I hate Bush" party line and unlike you are not blindly following some mantra about lies that were never told, assumptions because of the media and other pursuits of ignorance.
Unlike the Bush Haters, we actually read and understood the Speeches and why we went there. We did not take anything out of context. Unlike Bush haters, we are intelligent enough to read and understand the Constitution and not fall prey to any Partisan groups with personal agendas.
Unlike Bush Haters, we don't ridicule and throw a party every time any man makes a mistake speaking in public.

Speaking only for myself and the few on here I have corresponded with, your assumption that you could possibly open our eyes is completely hilarious. Most of us are thoughtful educated people, that have been active in politics for more years than the average poster has been alive. Yet, you espouse knowledge and inner thinking as it it was your own exclusive property.

Then when you are called on it, as is your want; you retreat back into a corner and start crying "Why are the Bush supporters picking on me." What is insulting to you to point out that you and others like you have an unfettered hatred that has no actual foundation?
You spout that he has done all of these horrible things and yet no proof exists. You pull op/ed pieces and throw them around as proof, and expect to be taken intellectually. You take parts of speeches out of context and use them to bolster weak arguments not expecting us to listen to/read the entire speech.

See, that is the problem. We are not attacking you, we are just turning on the light and truth. I know it is a shock, but come out of the darkness awhile and you will find it wonderful here.

Semper

Bush says at a fundraiser on 10-05-06:

“177 of the opposition party said, ‘You know, we don‘t think we ought to be listening to the conversations of terrorists.‘”

In reality:


Not even the White House press office could actually name a single Democrat who had ever said the government shouldn‘t be listening to the conversations of terrorists.

-from MSNBC's Keith Olberman, Oct 6th 2006

There you go, the president gives misleading information, or to not be as nice, lied to the American Public.

Go ahead and justify, or spin whatever you need to do.

I, with the other, roughly 67% of the population think he's not fit for the position of president.

Any info presented so far in this thread that attempts to justify the job he is doing has yet to convince me.

Originally posted by semperfortis
Your veiled assumption that you are opening my eyes, or anyone else for that matter is exactly what is being discussed.

I never said I AM operning your eyes. I said I encourage you to open to your eyes, by which I mean to look at the other side of the fence.

Originally posted by semperfortis
Your assumption that you perhaps have information that I/we do not possess or even that you are more intelligent than those that support President Bush. That is completely laughable.

Please state exactly where I assumed that and where I concluded that I am more intelligent than you. Back up your claims before making assumptions.

Originally posted by semperfortis
Supporting the President in no way implies a lack of understanding, quite the contrary. We have not fallen for the "I hate Bush" party line and unlike you are not blindly following some mantra about lies that were never told, assumptions because of the media and other pursuits of ignorance.

Supporting the president may not, but supporting the president BLINDLY is a lack of understanding or just pure arrogance. It does not require a great deal of intelligence to know that Bush has been a complete failure regarding major decisions.

Originally posted by semperfortis
Unlike the Bush Haters, we actually read and understood the Speeches and why we went there. We did not take anything out of context. Unlike Bush haters, we are intelligent enough to read and understand the Constitution and not fall prey to any Partisan groups with personal agendas.
Unlike Bush Haters, we don't ridicule and throw a party every time any man makes a mistake speaking in public.

Where did I ridicule Bush for making mistakes in his public speech. Quote me atleast one instance before accusing me. I was discussing about his reasons of war and his failure in general. Infact, I don't think I even used the word 'speech' anywhere else in the thread, yet you are accusing me without backing up your claim.

Originally posted by semperfortis
Speaking only for myself and the few on here I have corresponded with, your assumption that you could possibly open our eyes is completely hilarious. Most of us are thoughtful educated people, that have been active in politics for more years than the average poster has been alive. Yet, you espouse knowledge and inner thinking as it it was your own exclusive property.

Asking someone to look at the other side of the story and try to make sense of everyhting is not too much to ask when you are on a website solely for this purpose. You make your point, I make mine, then we decide which makes more sense using our own understanding and reasoning. You keep attacking the point about 'me opening youe eyes' by twisting my words and blowing it out of proportion while carefully avoiding the actual issue of discussion. I did NOT FORCE you.....i ENCOURAGE you.....see the difference.

You are doing the exact same thing that you are accusing me of. You assume that you have more knowledge without knowing anything about the other person. You assume you have been in politics longer than other have even been alive!..wow....

Originally posted by semperfortis
Then when you are called on it, as is your want; you retreat back into a corner and start crying "Why are the Bush supporters picking on me." What is insulting to you to point out that you and others like you have an unfettered hatred that has no actual foundation?

Lol....im not surprised you keep attacking the opposing discussion party while you avoid the actual discussion at hand. Please quote as to where I cried "Why are the Bush supporters picking on me.". Its funny how you make up stuff and make numerous assumptions just to personally attack us just because you cannot argue the actual discussion issue.

Originally posted by semperfortis
You spout that he has done all of these horrible things and yet no proof exists.

No proof? Maybe you should go ask the Iraqis and the afghanis for proof. Maybe the hundreds of thousands who have died will rise out of their grave and give you proof. As I said earlier, you do not need a lot of intelligence to see that Bush has been a failure all around.

Originally posted by semperfortis
You take parts of speeches out of context and use them to bolster weak arguments not expecting us to listen to/read the entire speech.

See, that is the problem. We are not attacking you, we are just turning on the light and truth. I know it is a shock, but come out of the darkness awhile and you will find it wonderful here.

Again you accuse me of something without quoting me. And on top of that you accuse me of the exact same thing you are doing. The difference is that I can actually show you from your own quotes while you cannot do the same.

You just spent an entire 3/4 page doing exactly what you acuse me of doing.

Typical. Also inevitable. Asking for opinions and giving none, taking comments out of context, re-interpreting statements, at least I'm in good company.

Hate is a terrible twisted emotion, it's a shame it is wasting so many minds.

Here maybe this will help..

Conversational Terrorism

Semper

[edit on 10/12/2006 by semperfortis]

[edit on 10/12/2006 by semperfortis]

To stir up the embers....


"I don't give a goddamn," Bush retorted. "I'm the President and the Commander-in-Chief. Do it my way." "Mr. President," one aide in the meeting said, "There is a valid case that the provisions in this law (the USA Patriot Act) undermine the Constitution." "Stop throwing the Constitution in my face," Bush screamed back- "It's just a goddamned piece of paper!" - Doug Thompson, capitolhillblue.com

"You don't get everything you want. A dictatorship would be a lot easier." Describing what it's like to be governor of Texas. (Governing Magazine 7/98) - From Paul Begala's "Is Our Children Learning?"

"If this were a dictatorship, it would be a heck of a lot easier, just so long as I'm the dictator," - Bush joked. CNN.com, December 18, 2000

"A dictatorship would be a heck of a lot easier, there's no question about it," Bush said. - Business Week, July 30, 2001

"What's all this whining about the environment? They're always talking about "stop the clearcuts." I mean do the math people. If we were out of trees then we wouldn't have any clearcuts to be complaining about now would we?" The National Speculator, March 2000

And my favorite two quotes:



"The most important thing is for us to find Osama bin Laden. It is our Number one priority and we will not rest until we find him!" - George W. Bush, September 13, 2001

"I don't know where bin Laden is. I have no idea and I really don't care. It's not that important. It's not our priority." - George W. Bush, March 13, 2002

Originally posted by semperfortis

You just spent an entire 3/4 page doing exactly what you acuse me of doing.

Typical. Also inevitable. Asking for opinions and giving none, taking comments out of context, re-interpreting statements, at least I'm in good company.

Hate is a terrible twisted emotion, it's a shame it is wasting so many minds.

Here maybe this will help..

Conversational Terrorism

Semper

[edit on 10/12/2006 by semperfortis]

[edit on 10/12/2006 by semperfortis]

I did not re-interpret any of your statements, I quoted them exactly how you posted them. Nothing is out of context....its pretty clear. I actually quoted you and replied to your statements. You have once again failed to provide any proof or quotes which shows that the assumptions u made about me, and the accusations u made, were true. Nice try, but too bad.

I was merely speaking in the language you would understand. But I can see its hopeless. Whether I try to argue my point or not, Whether I discuss my opinion or not. You are just gonna crticize me, all the while, staying off topic and avoiding the actual discussion and try to use personal attacks to get your voice heard. Too bad thats not how it works. Please refrain from the personal attacks because I am getting tired of it. If you are gonna post anything then atleast try to post something that is relevant to the thread and the topic at hand.


[edit on 13-10-2006 by half_minded]

Originally posted by tha stillz
"The most important thing is for us to find Osama bin Laden. It is our Number one priority and we will not rest until we find him!" - George W. Bush, September 13, 2001

"I don't know where bin Laden is. I have no idea and I really don't care. It's not that important. It's not our priority." - George W. Bush, March 13, 2002

Haha.....good one. And these are Bush's statements exactly 1 year apart. Yet, people fail to see why we call Bush a failure and why we do not trust him. Most of the 'Bush supporters' on this thread that I encountered kept crying about how the Bush haters keep bashing Bush. Lol......the best thing about this thread is that it is not based on any theories but actual hard facts. Thats why, even though people tried to debunk by arguing, they failed because you cannot debunk simple facts.

I have no doubt in my mind that US is in Iraq only for oil. And every other war it has fought throughout history has been for some secret/personal agenda. The truth of the matter is that the war on Iraq has not helped anyone. Not the Iraqi people, not the American people, not the soldiers. Only ones who profited from this war....well we all know who they are.

Here are some quotes as well,

From the Beloved Clinton..

1. "You can't say you love your country and hate your government." - Bill Clinton, 1995

2. "The other thing we have to do is to take seriously the role in this problem of...older men who prey on underage women...There are consequences to decisions and...one way or the other, people always wind up being held accountable." Bill Clinton, June 13, 1996 (Folley esque?)

3. "Just try to imagine what it would be like to be 300 million years old." -- President Clinton in Ashe County, N.C

4. "No one wants to get this (Lewinsky) matter behind us more than I do, except maybe all the rest of the American people," Bill Clinton, July 31, 1998 (Precious)

5. "You know the one thing that's wrong with this country? Everyone gets a chance to have their fair say."
President William Clinton addressing the people of Philadelphia, May 28, 1993 in the Courtyard, City Hall, Philadelphia, PA. (hmmmmm )

6. "I was thinking of you last night, Helmut, because I watched the sumo wrestling on television."

7. Bill Clinton, January 27, 1992, speaking about the allegations that he had a 12 year affair with Gennifer Flowers..."They've been exposed as the trash they are"
Arkansas Gazette

January 1998, Bill Clinton admits under oath in the Paula Jones deposition that he had an affair with Gennifer Flowers

8. "Thanks for the poncho."
President Clinton said this when he was presented with the Romanian tri-color flag during his visit in July.

9. "The last time I checked, the Constitution said, 'of the people, by the people and for the people.' That's what the Declaration of Independence says."
President Bill Clinton, campaigning October 17, 1996. From a campaign speech given in California. Quoted in Investor's Business Daily October 25, 1996

Gee, Mr. Clinton, that statement is in NEITHER - that phrase was in the Gettysburg Address!!

10. "You know, if I were a single man, I might ask that mummy out. That's a good-looking mummy!"---Bill Clinton
Hear Bill Clinton say this!

11. "African-Americans watch the same news at night that ordinary Americans do."
President Clinton on Black Entertainment Television, November 2, 1994 (HAHAHAHAHAHAHA)

12. As a candidate in 1992, Bill Clinton blasted Bush administration standards of behavior and pledged to conduct "the most ethical administration in the history of the Republic."

(Hysterical laughter....)

13. "the purpose of government is to rein in the rights of the people"

14. "[I]t depends on how you define "alone" ... there were a lot of times when we were alone, but I never really thought we were."

15. "It depends on what the meaning of the word 'is' is"

www.gargaro.com...

Plenty more where that came from and we don't even have to get started on any other Dem. President saying stupid things in public, we could be here all day.

Semper

Semper

We are going to be here all day anyway so lets take a moment to reflect on these quotes, because, to an extent, they offer a looking glass into their personalities. And let me preface this with my stance on democrats and republicans in general - I think they are both despicable, not because it is a convenient stance, but it is what my logic has deduced. But since Bush is our current leader, it makes more sense to focus on him. Besides, it is of little value to quote clinton in a "where are the Bush supporters" thread...

But taking a look at those somewhat amusing Clinton quotes, one can conclude he is a goofball, not much more. The Bush quotes on the other hand lead one to believe he has little understanding for the value of the consititution that he swore to uphold, dismissing it like junkmail. I'm still at a loss as to why you are adament in your support for him, Semper. I mean, I can see why you have trouble justifying the Bush quotes and quickly sidestep to our former presidents misguided banter, because no rational person can say "yeah, I do believe Bush is interested in upholding the constitution" because it's obvious that he is not - it is after all, in his words, only a piece of paper.

What do you have in his defense? If all you have is a retort consisting of the quotes of democrats that is pretty weak. And again, I will concede that many democrats are imbeciles as well.

I guess it takes a certain level of maturity to concede that, just like it takes a certain level of maturity to admit one was wrong, or that one failed. A level of maturity that we do not see from this administration or this president, and apparantly from the posts here, his supporters. Semper, you fail to admit the president you support has made any mistake at all. As the patriotic American you are, judging by your Podcast, I can't understand why you can't even admit he is wrong about the value of our constitution.

stillz

Again with the blanket statements..

Semper, you fail to admit the president you support has made any mistake at all.

Was that a lie, or did you just not read any of my posts?
At what point in what post have I ever said that he has made NO mistakes?
Are you just bolstering your argument with incorrect allegations?

But taking a look at those somewhat amusing Clinton quotes, one can conclude he is a goofball, not much more. The Bush quotes on the other hand lead one to believe he has little understanding for the value of the consititution that he swore to uphold, dismissing it like junkmail.

REALLY???
hmmmmmmm

You know the one thing that's wrong with this country? Everyone gets a chance to have their fair say."
President William Clinton addressing the people of Philadelphia, May 28, 1993 in the Courtyard, City Hall, Philadelphia, PA. (hmmmmm )
Constitution

"You can't say you love your country and hate your government." - Bill Clinton, 1995
Freedom of Speech

"the purpose of government is to rein in the rights of the people"
WOW not much more to say huh?

I agree with your one statement . They are all basically corrupt, it is simply the level of corrupt and ones ability to get up from the computer, go out and get involved in Politics to really see what is going on.

All of the keyboard babies on here are simply spouting the Liberal party line and refusing to accept that there are some of us that are truly involved and not just sitting on our guffs doing nothing. That we are actively working to improve things.

Semper

Well, at least your moniker is correct...half minded or half-baked. I am a proud Bush supporter...Sure go ahead and call me names. I can call names right back at you.

IMO we're in Iraq and Afganistan in an effort to fight the terrorist there rather than here. Makes sense to me. Yes, I will admit POTUS has made many mistakes in this regard. So has every other president that been in that office. I support him, the people working for him and our troops. God bless the USA.

Go ahead and show your behind...let the name calling begin.

It's ok KIA,

All they have is an emotional response, logic means nothing as they will distort it anyway.

Semper

Originally posted by semperfortis
stillz

Again with the blanket statements..

Semper, you fail to admit the president you support has made any mistake at all.

At what point in what post have I ever said that he has made NO mistakes?
Are you just bolstering your argument with incorrect allegations?



Semper

You had me doubting myself. I went back and reread every post on this thread you wrote, so I'm not sure if in your entire history with ATS you never admitted fault on President Bush. But in this thread the content seemed limited to the parameters you deem appropriate to deliver a fair arguement, the reasoning of 'bush haters', the habitual one sidedness of political views from people in general... I didn't see where you admitted the president had ever done anything wrong.

From my perspective, and the acts of the president with the patriot act, and handling of alleged al-queda prisoners (because not every prisoner is a terrorist), my concern for the purpose of this thread as it relates to current events is the President slowly stripping the American people of their constitutional rights - that was what one of the quotes were about. It is because I can envision this country turning into a police state right under our noses, which is how a dictator would do it with any success - You can't just have everyone waking up one day under martial law - that would simply not fly, but done over time slow conditioning the population with the gradual implementation of this, and creating false enemies, or a fear based model of mind control, it could happen to us without much opposition.

I guess I am frustrated because it seems you are side stepping this. Let me ask you directly Semper, do you approve of how the president is acting in regards to the constitution? By this I mean do you value habeas corpus?

When having this conversation with conservative folks, It usually comes down to: If you aren't doing anything wrong then what do you have to worry about? God I hate when people say that....

Edit:

as for the clinton quotes, I am not going to make any excuses. If he meant those things as the way they sound, then he is just as bad.


[edit on 13-10-2006 by tha stillz]

I guess I am frustrated because it seems you are side stepping this. Let me ask you directly Semper, do you approve of how the president is acting in regards to the constitution?

NO,

As for me posting positives in reference to the President and no negatives meaning I indicate he has done no wrong.... WELL .. You can't prove a negative.

I have never approved of the actions of any president 100%. If that were true, then I would not be an independent person, which I most definitely qualify for.

My contention is the criticism on every front. Usually by those that if he actually did what they say he should, they would simply cry foul about that as well.

Example, the same people that are crying in their beer over the interception of overseas phone calls related to terrorist activity, are the exact same ones that will weep the loudest when we are attacked again and scream that President Bush did not do enough. They are the same people that hung the beautiful American flags on their cars when we first went to Iraq, and now cry huge tears because some soldier died in combat.
They sit behind their safe little keyboards, in their safe little houses in their safe little neighborhoods and complain about people that are getting up every morning and working 12 and 16 hour days to make sure they can still complain.

It is incredible hypocrisy in action.

He is one man, with VERY limited powers. Where is the criticism for the congressional leaders that all voted for the same things? No easier it's to blame one man, when all he is doing is what we put him in there to do.

Though not to the extent that President Bush experiences it, I know somewhat how he must feel. I too am out there fighting it everyday. Working with FERC and HS and the computer network. Most of you have no idea what is being done, because to broadcast it would aid the enemy and that is not something we are willing to do. Unlike the New York Times.



Semper

Fair Enough Semper.

A couple of notes:

I don't think anyone is crying over intercepting overseas phone calls. Its the domestic ones that raise eyebrows. Also the "whats next" mentality of fear of the Americans who feel that it may be their phone calls that are monitored, or the "whats next" feeling as it applies the the new measures which threaten our rights and freedoms being tossed around in congress.

I definitely agree that Bush is not the one stop shop to drop off an ass-whooping, but then again, the buck does stop with him.


I appreciate your thoughtful responses.

Anytime Stillz

I enjoy your debates

Semper

Originally posted by KnowItAll
Well, at least your moniker is correct...half minded or half-baked. I am a proud Bush supporter...Sure go ahead and call me names. I can call names right back at you.

Please point out where I called you names. Please quote me and show me where I called you names that offended you so much.

Originally posted by KnowItAll
IMO we're in Iraq and Afganistan in an effort to fight the terrorist there rather than here. Makes sense to me. Yes, I will admit POTUS has made many mistakes in this regard. So has every other president that been in that office. I support him, the people working for him and our troops. God bless the USA.

This thread is not comparing Bush with any pther president. Its merely a discussion of why you support/not support Bush. And those of us who do not support have justified our statements with actuals news and facts.

Originally posted by KnowItAll
Go ahead and show your behind...let the name calling begin.

There is no front and back on an online forum. Only words. And as i said earlier, quote me where i used name calling before u accuse.

Ok....heres something new for a change. Instead of crtiticizing Bush and constantly pointing out his 'bad' goods lets try to point out the 'good' deeds he has done.

Bush is the President. So as the President, everything he does should be in the best interest of the people. So, how about you guys point out the 'good' things he has done which has actually helped his citizens or any other country for that matter.

Easy...

1. Tax Cuts
2. Best Economy in decades
3. War on Terror
4. Prosecution of the War in Iraq
5. Strong reestablishment of the respect for the office after it was lost prior to him.


Now in all fairness, I'll post what has disappointed me.

1. Immigration (Too weak)
2. Spending (He spends like a Dem)
3. Needs to stay out of Gay Marriage and let the State Decide

Overall, he is no Regan, but a good solid President.

Now you can argue all that you want, and you will. Yet, understand you asked for my opinion, so why waste your type on trying to convince me otherwise? As those that have posted and debated against me know, I study this extensively and these are "MY" conclusions.


Semper