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Slave Descendants Try to Revive Lawsuit

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posted on Sep, 29 2006 @ 12:55 AM
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Thanks Semper, but no thanks this time. However, I would like to ask you to stop trying to interpret to me what another poster's words meant.

I know what loam said. And I know what I thought of it. I posted my opinons.

And I ask the same questions. Would people say what happened during the Holocaust was nonsense? Would they dare to say it to those asking reparations for the Holocaust?


Originally quoted by loam

ceci2006, the cause against racism and injustice would be much better served if you actually focused on examples of it, rather than manufacture examples like the response you just made to me.


Did you look at my example on page one? Did you miss the beaten slave? Did you miss the drawing of the Middle Passage?

Did you look at Abstract_P's examples?

Sorry loam, but it's more than a nice try. And it's not manufactured. Unfortunately, there are people here that throw in a lot of manufactured things regarding the stereotypes of Blacks. And only a few, if any, will say anything.

Who knows how people would spend the money? Who knows how Blacks will be affected by this? It seems no one will ask, but they have a bunch of answers stating how African-Americans might treat the reparations if it were to be received, let alone how they might react. Did you miss Rockpuck's comments?

But unfortunately, the entire slavery issue is a bunch of nonsense to a lot of people. And it will stay that way as long as they keep repeating the same old diatribes against reparations. That is why court cases like these will never get the proper respect because there are a bunch of loud voices who will shout down any attempts to do so except to minimalize what Blacks have gone through since they arrived in this country. So it is quite more than calling a court case rubbish.

That is why I wonder about the Holocaust and whether people would be as adamant about prescribing what the Jews would do while belittling their history in order to mimimalize experiences of suffering such a horrible, unspeakable event.

What other example will get people to think differently about the suffering that Blacks have received, except that of the Holocaust?



[edit on 29-9-2006 by ceci2006]




posted on Sep, 29 2006 @ 12:58 AM
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Ceci,

You may ask whatever you wish.

However, I will post what ever I feel is relevant.

You wanted to know what going to Africa has to do with the thread, what does the Jewish Holocaust have to do with it?

Are the Germans being sued as well?

Semper



posted on Sep, 29 2006 @ 01:01 AM
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Originally posted by Keyhole


How can you hold people responsible TODAY, and make THEM pay money in reparations, for things that were done by people who have died a long time ago.

This "politically correct" thing just drives me crazy!





Well it goes the same for any house that you may buy. If you don't search back far enough to the title and you buy the house only to find there are Liens and taxes owed, you inherit those liens and taxes and you are held responsible for it, not the original owner.

Pie







[edit on 29-9-2006 by ThePieMaN]



posted on Sep, 29 2006 @ 01:05 AM
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Thank you for granting me the freedom to express my opinion, Semper. It is quite an honor not to be subjected to having my behavior and opinions subjugated pretty much like my forbears.

But look above. I answered your question.


[edit on 29-9-2006 by ceci2006]



posted on Sep, 29 2006 @ 01:14 AM
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Originally posted by ceci2006
I know what loam said.


Apparently, you don't.


I suggest you go back and read it, as well as my subsequent reply.


Originally posted by ceci2006
Would people say what happened during the Holocause was nonsense?


Consistent with my view on the injustices perpetrated by the slave trade, I would not.


Originally posted by ceci2006
Would they dare to say it to those asking reparations for the Holocaust?


There is a material difference between some restitution claims made against certain commercial entities for their role in the plight of Jews during WWII and the legal claims that are the subject of this thread. Many of the WWII perpetrators (or their direct beneficiaries) are still alive today. That is not to say that ALL WWII associated restitution efforts are legitimate. To the extent that any seek to unjustly hold accountable the innocent of today for the sins of others in the past, I would equally call that nonsense on par with the lawsuit originally described in this thread.



posted on Sep, 29 2006 @ 01:22 AM
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That's fair and I have reread your comments. I see what you are saying. But in disagreement, there are other things that need to be said.

The perpetrators of Jim Crow Segregation and the Civil Rights era are alive today. The laws of segregation were made from the residue of slavery lingering after the institution was over. In fact, the perpetrators of those laws and acts of violence still are living. The victims are still living. Slavery didn't end because of the Emancipation Proclamation. The violence, social restriction and prejudice stemming from the past time continues to go on even to this day.

Who could forget the death of James Byrd from Jasper, TX? That is an occurrence of racial violence that happened in the present day.

But fine. This lawsuit is nonsense then. Nothing should be done for the racist acts against African-Americans. Instead, they should be ridiculed, if not forgotten. At least that is what I am gleaning from the dissents against this issue.

Truthfully, the issue of African-American slavery is being mimimalized by the comments made against the lawsuit. That is why, I made my opinon about what you said.

People seem to be forgetting it has to do with the corporations that have taken part in slavery and perpetuated the institution while making money. There are corporations that still exist from the time of slavery. We do know that the life of a corporation is longer than any human one.

It has nothing to do with a particular race of people being made to pay anything.


But think of it this way: the "innocents" are beneficiaries of a system their descendants have perpetuated since the creation of this country. It is call a system of institutional racism and the privileges attached to it. When discussing the matters of inequality and treatment, I would suggest to you that the "innocents" have achieved social mobility, status and power because of the efforts executed in the past. They still benefit today because they will not renounce the privileges they receive by virtue of birth and race.



[edit on 29-9-2006 by ceci2006]



posted on Sep, 29 2006 @ 01:46 AM
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SORRY I just got off the phone with my father because I was so enthralled by this conversation about the sue and my father asked whose is going to pay him back for all the African slaves that he has bought out of slavery that still goes on to this day and just to let you know all slave trafficking in Africa is by black tribes.



posted on Sep, 29 2006 @ 01:56 AM
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Originally posted by cmaracing
SORRY I just got off the phone with my father because I was so enthralled by this conversation about the sue and my father asked whose is going to pay him back for all the African slaves that he has bought out of slavery that still goes on to this day and just to let you know all slave trafficking in Africa is by black tribes.


Your father bought africans out of slavery in africa? Well why did he do that if he expected to be repaid later for it? Doesn't sound like its something he really wanted to do. Did someone force him to buy them out of slavery with a promise of repayment? I'm not fully understanding this.



posted on Sep, 29 2006 @ 02:01 AM
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It was a rhetoric comment on our society its not just my father there are many people in Africa that do this, it has been going on since I was a kid



posted on Sep, 29 2006 @ 02:02 AM
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and ist 8:00 a.m call some one there and they will tell you the same thing about the slave trade



posted on Sep, 29 2006 @ 02:26 AM
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I read this thread and I want to offer my insight ... take it or leave it.

I am a white Lithuanian male and I strongly disagree with the idea of reparations. But my reason for this line of thinking is much different than you'd think. I have many friends of all races. My best friend is black. I have no racism or hatred of any race.

My great great great grandfather and grandmother were slaves to a southern plantation owner in the late 1800s (I have historical documentation ... if anyone would like proof I can scan these documents and provide them, even though it would destroy any relative anonymity I have on these boards due to my family name being on them). They were first slaves to a white tennessean plantation owner who had a history of capturing the polish immigrants coming down from the midwest and east (my ancestors travelled with them over here ... that's another story that's worthy of it's own thread one day). Later they were sold to a black owner who had been a former slave himself. They were treated brutally as were all slaves. They finally escaped in 1869 and travelled back north to the midwest ... the rest is unrelated to this thread.

The point is ... I have never once thought about asking for reparations for my slave ancestors. Not once. It's not my right to bring up issues that I did not experience in my lifetime with people who did not foster them. But when I speak out against reparations with my logical OPINIONS in a public setting, I get booed, sworn at, and labelled a racist.

People fail to see that the REAL issue should be with the MISTREATMENT ... not the race. Plenty of other people were mistreated just the same, regardless of what your history books tell you. Realize what really happened before you look to take sides on an issue.

I wanted to mention this here so that people do not remain ignorant to a debate that is mainly viewed as a simple race issue ... when it's clearly not (regardless of my own personal side of the issue).

EDIT: grammar



[edit on 29-9-2006 by Fiverz]



posted on Sep, 29 2006 @ 02:34 AM
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It appears you added to your post above so I will address those edits as well.


Originally posted by ceci2006

Originally quoted by loam

ceci2006, the cause against racism and injustice would be much better served if you actually focused on examples of it, rather than manufacture examples like the response you just made to me.


Did you look at my example on page one? Did you miss the beaten slave? Did you miss the drawing of the Middle Passage?


While they are perfect examples of the depravity man is capable of, how are the companies being sued today specifically responsible for the very examples you cite?


You have an odd notion of culpability and justice.
Fortunately, our legal system doesn't agree with your view.


Originally posted by ceci2006
Sorry loam, but it's more than a nice try. And it's not manufactured.


When you falsely claim I indicated those examples- or the injustices of slavery- are "nonsense", at best you either have a reading comprehension issue or at worst you are simply being dishonest. I will not mince words here. Did you just misread what I wrote or were you intentionally and pathetically lying about my position?

:shk:


Originally posted by ceci2006
Unfortunately, there are people here that throw in a lot of manufactured things regarding the stereotypes of Blacks. And only a few, if any, will say anything.


I agree and also find it inappropriate. BUT, I will not because of it excuse any nonsense or dribble issuing from your posts.



Originally posted by ceci2006
Who knows how people would spend the money? Who knows how Blacks will be affected by this? It seems no one will ask, but they have a bunch of answers stating how African-Americans might treat the reparations if it were to be received, let alone how they might react.


My initial comments were restricted to the actual lawsuit which is supposed to be the specific subject of this thread...

I don't know what people in this thread have said about the questions you mention, but it is my opinion that if one is indeed entitled to "reparation" money, they are equally entitled to spend it in any legal manner they choose. The one issue has nothing to do with the other.


Originally posted by ceci2006
Did you miss Rockpuck's comments?


So you really didn't read my initial post, did you? I barely got through page two.


Originally posted by ceci2006
But unfortunately, the entire slavery issue is a bunch of nonsense to a lot of people.


While I do not disagree that some might think the "entire slavery issue is a bunch of nonsense", the notion that "a lot" of people think that way is a paranoid delusion.


I think the VAST majority are as repulsed by it as you.

Like I said, stick with actual examples of injustice and stop trying to manufacture injustice where it does not exist. Intellectual dishonesty on this matter does nothing to help those who are the true victims.


Originally posted by ceci2006
And it will stay that way as long as they keep repeating the same old diatribes against reparations.


Which raises another point requiring clarification. "Reparations" are payments made by government to compensate for some wrongdoing. I don't care what the source article says, their use of the term is wrong and does not apply to the lawsuits in question.

What the plaintiffs are seeking is compensatory or restitution damages from several commercial entities.

Those are entirely different concepts. While I *might* be receptive to debate on the appropriateness of government reparations, I vehemently oppose the claims made against the businesses in the specific lawsuit that is the subject of this thread.


Originally posted by ceci2006
That is why court cases like these will never get the proper respect because there are a bunch of loud voices who will shout down any attempts to do so except to minimalize what Blacks have gone through since they arrived in this country.


No. Those cases fortunately fail because they have no legal merit. I'll say it again. Assigning a previous generation's culpability for its crimes to another generation is pure nonsense. That logic is as twisted as some of the similar convoluted logic espoused in support of slavery.



Originally posted by ceci2006
So it is quite more than calling a court case rubbish.

That is why I wonder about the Holocaust and whether people would be as adamant about prescribing what the Jews would do and belittling their history in order to mimimalize experiences of suffering such a horrible, unspeakable event.

What other example will get people to think differently about the suffering that Blacks have received, except that of the Holocaust?


ceci2006, is this thread about the lawsuit described in the source article or the evils of slavery, racism and prejudice? They are not the same discussion.


[edit on 29-9-2006 by loam]



posted on Sep, 29 2006 @ 02:34 AM
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One of the misconceptions I have read repeatedly throughout this thread is that America was built on the backs of black slaves. That is simply not even close to being true. Blacks have always comprised a very small percentage of the population of this country and most of them were used in the southern colonies/states because that's where most of the agriculture was and where slaves could be used most effectively. Being mostly confined to plantations/farms in the South just what did they build? Oh sure, some of them (a very, very tiny portion) worked on railroads, in construction, in factories, etc. and those few can be said to have helped build this country; however, their contributions are far, far outweighed by those of European immigrants.

So, just to set the record straight, let me say that blacks have probably done less to build this country than any other ethnic group in America.

[edit on 29-9-2006 by Astronomer70]



posted on Sep, 29 2006 @ 02:48 AM
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Fine loam. You made your point. However, I did not think you were lying about your position. In fact, I know that you did not mince words. I just find it problematic that people will use this issue of deriding reparations for any good reason just to minimalize the impact that slavery had on African-Americans. That is all. That is why I used the example of the Holocaust.

On that note, I have a question then:

1)What did Blacks contribute to America?

2) What should be done to address the mistreatment that has happened in America?



[edit on 29-9-2006 by ceci2006]



posted on Sep, 29 2006 @ 02:48 AM
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And now for the other side...


Originally posted by Astronomer70
Being mostly confined to plantations/farms in the South just what did they build?


Astronomer70, are you freakin' kidding me? That distinction is PAINFULLY artificial!!!


No wonder ceci, and others, go nuts...

Minimizing the significant economic contribution made as a consequence of slavery to the nation's economy is a gross misrepresentation of the historical truth.

Unbelievable.

:shk:



posted on Sep, 29 2006 @ 03:01 AM
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Originally posted by ceci2006
1)What do you think Blacks did to help America?


The contributors (whether by consent or not) are numerous enough they would certainly be poorly represented by any response I might be able to provide in a single post.


Originally posted by ceci2006
2)What should be done to address the mistreatment that has happened in America?


Address the actual and very real mistreatment that happens today...and seek to prevent such mistreatment from occurring in the future. Punishment by proxy for the crimes of others in the past does NOTHING to advance the real issue of injustice.

What do either of your questions have to do with the subject lawsuits of this thread?



posted on Sep, 29 2006 @ 03:13 AM
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loam, well, the reason why I asked is that the same old arguments come up again in terms of dismissing reparations:

1)Blacks have not contributed anything to America

2)That they should not deserve reparations because other people experienced the same thing (notwithstanding that others did not have be in fear of being segregated, lynched, bred, raped, restricted and enslaved).

However, you asked for some concrete examples. I will post some.

This is from the site, Is That Legal?. This the response to an argument made against slavery reparations. President Lincoln's words and there assessment provides part of an answer:


A Sloppy Argument Against Slavery Reparations

I find Abraham Lincoln's words on the point rather more apt:

"If we shall suppose that American slavery is one of those offenses which, in the providence of God, must needs come, but which, having continued through His appointed time, He now wills to remove, and that He gives to both North and South this terrible war as the woe due to those by whom the offense came, shall we discern therein any departure from those divine attributes which the believers in a living God always ascribe to Him? Fondly do we hope, fervently do we pray, that this mighty scourge of war may speedily pass away. Yet, if God wills that it continue until all the wealth piled by the bondsman's two hundred and fifty years of unrequited toil shall be sunk, and until every drop of blood drawn with the lash shall be paid by another drawn with the sword, as was said three thousand years ago, so still it must be said "the judgments of the Lord are true and righteous altogether."


The Civil War was no final accounting for slavery. Slavery's legacy is all around us. It may be impossible to calculate the present cost of that old injustice, and it may be unjust to expect certain parties to pay it. But that doesn't mean that the nation has in fact paid down the debt of the historic injustice of slavery, or that the injustice of slavery is truly in our remote past.


This is yet another article from alternet.com that discusses good reasons why reparations should be granted:


ARGUMENT FOR SLAVE REPARATIONS

The rightness of African American Reparations is based on that from 1619 – 1865, the legal status of people of African descent was property (i.e., Massachusetts Body of Liberties-1641; Belt v. Dalby-1786; Fugitive Slave Act-1850; Dred Scott Decision-1857), a status legitimized by all levels of government. Again, African American Reparations is not about simple dissemination that, yes, all immigrants face. It is about the countless laws passed at all levels of government (local, state, federal) that in effect institutionalized the dehumanization and disfranchisement of black people. No law was passed against the Irish from practicing their own culture. No law was passed to prevent the Irish from learning to read and write English. For 246 years, this was the case for people of African descent in the United States, laws that often carried the death penalty. During a brief period 1865 – 1876, blacks received full protection as citizens under the law. However, in short order, the federal government again institutionalized and thus sanctioned the dehumanizing and disfranchisement of African Americans (i.e. R. B. Hayes deal-1878; jim crow laws; Plessy vs. Ferguson-1896).

One horrific evidence of the federal government complacency towards and collaboration in dehumanizing and the disfranchisement of African Americans, is that while an estimated 3,386 people were lynched from 1882 to 1930, the vast majority of which were African America men (On average that is the equivalent of 1 person every 5 days for 48 years), an anti-lynching act could not be passed in congress. Do not confuse lynching to be an isolated act of violence. Lynchings were generally social events. For example, in Ohio on June 18, 1897 a black man was lynched in front of a crowd of estimated 9,000 people. Lynchings were not social responses to an individual, but individual examples to the entire black community regarding the power of whites over blacks. Furthermore, there are no records of any person associated with a lynching of being convicted from 1880 – 1905, which implicates local, state and federal governments as sanctioning lynching.


NPR had a program about an ex-slave who actually asked the government for reparations. The author of her story was interviewed.

You can listen to it here: Book Documents Struggle for Slavery Reparations

This was on my thread, but I would like to repost it here so that others may read it. This from a professor of the Ohio State Law school:


"If the Shoe Fits, Wear It:An Analysis of Reparations to African Americans"


This almost constant plea for reparations over the past one hundred and thirty years appears mysterious and even irrational from the perspective of many Americans. The perception among many that reparations are threatening or ineffective is revealed in a number of contradictory arguments, for example: 1) reparations are unlikely ever to be awarded, after all, no relief has been given for the past one hundred and thirty years; 2) reparations are undeserved by African Americans since all ex-slaves have been dead for at least a generation; 3) white Americans living today have not injured African Americans and should not be required to pay for the sins of their slavemaster forbearers; 4) it is impossible to determine who should get what and how much; and 5) African Americans must become self-reliant and determine their own fate and stop waiting for relief from external sources. Opponents of reparations to African Americans are so overwhelmingly entrenched in the rightness of their position that they conceptualize the cry for reparations as frivolous, meritless, and divisive.

However, the reparations movement cannot be easily dismissed or discredited, in part because so many of its supporters are part of the American mainstream. For the same reason, the movement cannot be classified as radical or extremist. A movement that has been sustained through several generations and that has won the support of knowledgeable and reputable people throughout history, including members of Congress, business people, professionals, academicians, attorneys, educators, and other hard working people cannot be dismissed as frivolous. Proponents of reparations pursue their cause with fervor equivalent to that of its opponents and stand firm in their assertion that the reparations given to Jews by Germany, and to Native Americans and Japanese Americans by the United States, set precedents for the payment of reparations to African Americans. The moral basis for reparations is simply stated: 1) slaves were not paid for their labor for more than two hundred and sixty-five years, thereby depriving the descendants of slaves of their inheritance; the descendants of the slavemasters inherited the benefit derived from slave labor, which properly belonged to the descendants of slaves; 2) the United States Government promised ex-slaves forty acres and a mule and did not make good on that promise; and 3) systematic and government-sanctioned economic and racial oppression since the abolition of slavery impeded and interfered with the self-determination of African Americans and excluded them from sharing in the growth and prosperity of the nation.



I hope that this provides some intellectual reasons why this should be taken more seriously than before.

[edit on 29-9-2006 by ceci2006]



posted on Sep, 29 2006 @ 03:16 AM
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Really, ceci2006, if you are going to continue to edit the substantive content of your posts after they have been responded to, I am done here... It would be obvious you are only interested in playing games, rather than have a true discussion on the issues.


Originally posted by ceci2006
However, I did not think you were lying about your position.


You really do have a reading comprehension issue...


Nowhere do I claim you thought *I* was lying. It was I who asked whether YOU were purposefully lying about my position.

I don't know how you could have gotten that wrong.



Originally posted by ceci2006
In fact, I know that you did not mince words.


I rarely do.



Originally posted by ceci2006
I just find it problematic that people will use this issue of deriding reparations for any good reason just to minimalize the impact that slavery had on African-Americans.


That statement makes no sense. What are you saying? How does opposing these lawsuits minimize the impact of slavery on African-Americans?



posted on Sep, 29 2006 @ 03:24 AM
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I'm sorry for misconstruing your words. I scan the posts like anyone else and sometimes, I make mistakes. That's why I edit. I am not playing games. I edit heavily because I meticulously look over what I write.

But, yes, I do think that opposing reparations minimalizes the experiences of slavery regarding African Americans. By that, I mean that by saying that Blacks are owed nothing, people are in effect dismissing the harsh treatment, death and other vagaries African-American suffered immensely. By saying no to reparations, it is in effect for Blacks the same way it might be construed as denying the Holocaust for Jews.

By not having any form of apology made by a government that has enslaved, tortured, killed, taken away your belongings, made laws and endorsed the violent actions of others is rather a slap in the face. To have other Americans rape and treat your relatives as chattel and have no apology for it is more of the same.

The worst of it is that people do not want to face the ugly part of slavery. They can say what they want and write it off by saying that Blacks do not get anything for their suffering. At the same time, the same mistreatment and disrespect goes on to this day--even in this thread.

That's why I also asked what people would suggest in place for reparations. Because the ugliness of the past cannot be ignored. And there is an entire race of people who continue to be brutalized by the ignorance and hatred that continues because of the legacy of slavery.




[edit on 29-9-2006 by ceci2006]



posted on Sep, 29 2006 @ 03:25 AM
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Stop editing the substantive content of your posts after they have been responded to!!! Add a new post instead!!!

Get with it! Will you?


Originally posted by ceci2006
However, you asked for some concrete examples.




No, I did not.

But I don't object to your content nonetheless.


Originally posted by ceci2006
...reparations...


Again, you are confused. REPARATIONS are NOT the issue in the subject lawsuits.

Are you just ignorant of the distinction or are you purposefully ignoring it?


I thought you wanted people to stay on the subject lawsuits?



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