Slave Descendants Try to Revive Lawsuit

Originally posted by donwhite
I have two questions, Mr F, that if you will answer, will help me to better understand your family’s history. 1) Was you family “white” or not? 2) Was you family indentured or not? Are you familiar with the meaning of “indentured” as I use it?

Yes my family was white. No they were not indentured servants ... they were slaves.

No, I’m saying, it is my impression that people of European culture tend to be more accepting and more resigned to what may well be inevitable. Americans OTOH, are not willing to accept the past as a mold for the future. We have little history - barely 400 years here. And don't forget, we are descended from people who did not like it over there. Where European culture goes back at least to the late Roman era c. 500 AD. That’s all. Critics might express it as “Europeans are more law abiding but Americans will tolerate large amounts of violence and often cheer the lawbreakers.”

Ah I see what you're saying and I'd probably have to agree. But particularly on this issue I believe it's becoming more and more clear that sensible educated people are weighing in on this with better evidence and knowledge about the situation than ever before. So in general I would agree about us Americans, but not this specific case.

And on that score - a human rights issue - you are exactly right. Thanks for the nice exchange, Fiverz.

Likewise.

What is the real motive in this case? If you say justice, then it is way to late for that, because all Bank of America is is a name of a company... The justice you are looking for is toward the person who allow the company to make profit out of slavery, I'm pretty sure those guys are long dead.

Lets say Bank of America change their name to American Bank. Then what would happen?

All this lawsuit will do is just cost Bank of America employees their jobs.

[edit on 29-9-2006 by IspyU]

I took a break from posting here because I saw some of the same old thing. But, I have to correct loam. My beliefs are not "misguided". But, unfortunately, it might be easier to believe loam's comments because "Jim Crow Ettiquette" dictates it as such.

And before you say that is "misguided", please look up "Jim Crow" ettitquette and read the entire thing.

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Fiverz,

Segregation and slavery is not the same thing. You are correct in saying so. However, segregation did happen during slavery due to the laws against the Black slaves. And it continued after the short period of Reconstruction until forty-two years ago.

So again, I ask, did your relatives have to pay a poll tax and drink from the "ColoredsOnly" water fountain? It should be an easy question to answer. My relatives did and endured so much more during slavery and after it. As I mentioned before on another thread, my parents were among the first generation to integrate after the passage of the 1964 Civil Rights Act.

I wonder, what your relatives were doing during the times of segregation and the Civil Rights Era, which echoed the residual effects of slavery.

I mean, did they take advantage of their privileges to engage in social mobility? Or did they reflect their lowly status and was socially isolated through law, custom, politics and education?

I'm sure that they wouldn't go that far in echoing the lowly and often degrading status as Black people had to do. If they refused to go into those "Whites Only" buildings, I would have to nominated them for sainthood.

So, I'm sorry I had to say this because I truly feel bad that your relatives, like mine, had to be slaves.

But there is a difference between what your relatives experienced in slavery afterward and mine.


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And even though the Union army practiced conscription, I would be hard pressed to say that some of these "past relatives" had a choice in the matter whether they were going to serve or not. So, there's no law suit here.

Instead, take your grievances to possibly to many of the Conferate groups that exist to this day that celebrate Civil War history or reinactments. After all, it was the Confederate soldiers that killed your relatives. Not any slaves.

And furthermore, such a statement truly reveals the lack of research into why the Civil War was actually fought. Slavery was one reason why the war was started. However, there were a lot of economical and political reasons why it was fought also. So, all I can say is that when you say that you ought to "sue the slaves" it echoes the same racist behavior and resentment toward a race that you are trying to prevent when you say you want the lawsuit thrown out.

Or is it "Do as I say, Not as I do"?

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Keyhole, I will find out your requests a little later.


[edit on 29-9-2006 by ceci2006]

Originally posted by ceci2006
But, I have to correct loam. My beliefs are not "misguided". But, unfortunately, it might be easier to believe loam's comments because "Jim Crow Ettiquette" dictates it as such.

And before you say that is "misguided", please look up "Jim Crow" ettitquette and read the entire thing.

It's more than just misguided...IT'S DISHONEST.

Fight your imagined demons and ignore the true injustice standing right beside you.

It is obvious that people who share your view have infirmities of personal character that have NOTHING to do with the issue of racism. The latter one is a problem of society... the former is an individual dysfunction.

Wallow in your artificially enhanced victimhood- whatever your motivation. I care less. The choice is yours.

Intellectual dishonesty like YOURS will never be a part of the solution.

Next.

:shk:


[edit on 29-9-2006 by loam]

Who cares?

I continue to speak my peace about this topic. And I will continue to do so whether you think it is dishonest or not. You voice only one opinion. Big deal.

So, truly, I don't care. Say what you must. But all the time you've wasted raking me over the coals could have been spent "correcting" us about the true facts of the case by posting your own information.

You haven't done much to set a better example.

Indeed. Next.

[edit on 29-9-2006 by ceci2006]

This is such a joke. I agree with hoohaa, give every living slave the money thats due them but to pass it along to 3rd and 4th generation family members? get real. So now we have to go back throughout history and pay every nation or group of people because they were enslaved or occupied by another? The world was a far different place back then with a totally different mindset, does that make it right? No! But I'm not going to be held accountable for the sins of my great great great grand parents thats just crazy! This just seems an attempt at a money grab btw who sold us the slaves in the first place?

Originally posted by IspyU
What is the real motive in this case? If you say justice, then it is way to late for that, because all Bank of America is is a name of a company... The justice you are looking for is toward the person who allow the company to make profit out of slavery, I'm pretty sure those guys are long dead.

Lets say Bank of America change their name to American Bank. Then what would happen?

All this lawsuit will do is just cost Bank of America employees their jobs.

[edit on 29-9-2006 by IspyU]

Good point, Bank of America did not exist, it was actually founded in the western states by an Italian, and was formed as "Bank of Italy" in San Fransisco Calif.

After the 1906 earthquake the man who founded the Bank of Italy become the number one lender, that is how he got his corporate power and through his ability to form branches of his bank, he then formed the Bank of America.

Please, explain to me 1. When did California have slaves in 1906?
2. Why you feel you deserve something from this bank?

en.wikipedia.org...

[edit on 9/29/2006 by Rockpuck]

Original quote by Ceci:I continue to speak my peace about this topic. And I will continue to do so whether you think it is dishonest or not. You voice only one opinion. Big deal.

No, Loam does not stand alone. His is not "one" opinion.

I stand with Loam as well.

Semper

Good for you. I still don't care. But thank you for standing with loam because it shows your loyalty.

posted by Fiverz

Yes my family was white. No they were not indentured servants ... they were slaves. [Edited by Don W]

First, I am not disputing your g-grandparent’s account of a tragic moment in their lives. No one would ever forget that. The Oregon Trail movement began in the 1820s. Most of the organized wagon trains started at St. Joseph, MO. There are still wagon ruts visible in the ground where the ox drawn wagons began their 5-6 months journey to the “promised land.”

It is easy for me to imagine how people from Europe who did not speak English - or speak it well - and going to places for which the available maps left a lot to be desired, could get lost or take a wrong turn. Others would have no hesitancy to take full advantage of them, all the more so if the farmer was a member of the local power elite which meant no one would dare challenge him for his misdeeds. Although they were “enslaved” they were not “legal” slaves.

Our Founding Fathers were fully aware of white slavery - the Barbary Coast for example - but slavery was only possible here because the generally held belief was that white people were God’s first choice and other people of color were inferior beings. This was the rationale which made it possible for them to say “All men are crated equal . . ” when at the same time they were slave owners.

Their’s is an interesting story and not one that I had heard before you brought it up, Mr F. Thanks.

Ceci,

We are loyal to the truth.

Loam has showed compassion for your "cause" and your opinions on here and because he/she disagrees with "one" segment of this, you have alienated him/her.

There is no reason for this. All anyone has ever asked is that you stick to the truth, and debate without rewording, twisting or reediting to confuse.

It really should be obvious to you by now. You have alienated all but 3 or 4 off of your thread and apparently you are attempting to do that here.

You have some really compassionate thoughts, you are intelligent and thought provoking. It is however, ludicrous to imagine that anyone will AGREE with you 100% of the time. The beauty of the debate and what keeps members posting, is the disagreement. Until that disagreement becomes uncomfortable as it has on your threads. Then people begin to understand that you are not after their opinions, instead you are trying to convert them. Our opinions are every bit as valuable as yours even if they are completely different.

I do not know if you get frustrated because we don't agree with you, or mad, whatever it is, it causes you to either not understand what we post, or choose to ignore it, or twist it to fit whatever it is your feeling at that moment. Either way, it does not induce good debate and gives people a bad feeling about debating you at all.

I used to LOVE reading and responding to your posts and watching the threads you contributed to develop. Then something happened and you no longer care about the purity of the debate. It seems that all you care about is winning at any cost. No one on here wins, we are all different and all have our own personal, valued opinion.

This really got bad, debating with you, right after the Board refused your forum on race and I hope that you are not striking out at the rest of us because of that.

I miss how it used to be, just a few months ago Ceci.

Semper

I agree with what you are saying, Don. It conveys to me that the issue of slavery is complex and difficult when discussing what should be done to get America to get in touch with its past and make some sense out of it.

I am captivated by Fiverz story for many reasons. But, he has not answered whether his relatives were mistreated in times of segregation, or did they take advantage of the color of their skin and enjoyed the privileges that others of their race became accustomed to up until forty-two years ago.

To me, that demonstrates a difference in terms of mistreatment and that things were still unequal during times of slavery.

It'd be different if generations of his family were held in captivity until the Emancipation Proclamation. But if one generation was all it took for people to feel a sense that slavery occurs, what do the descendants of Black slavery have to do get other Americans to feel the same sort of empathy?

Semper, fine. Tell it to the judge. Otherwise, I am staying on topic.

Originally posted by semperfortis
...him/her...

I'll remove all doubt.

I'm a guy.

Originally posted by semperfortis
I used to LOVE reading and responding to your posts and watching the threads you contributed to develop. Then something happened and you no longer care about the purity of the debate.

I agree. I consider the transformation a loss...and I am saddened by it.

Originally posted by semperfortis
I miss how it used to be, just a few months ago Ceci.

For example, where is the ceci found in this thread?

capital police congressional assault race and sex card cynthia mckinney

Look, ceci, I haven't given you a square inch in the last two threads because you didn't deserve otherwise. Our positions aren't so far apart on the issue of race, yet you surprisingly have decided a dishonest scorched-earth approach to your obvious pain.

I don't know what happened to you, but the enemy does NOT lurk behind EVERY corner. There are sympathetic friends too...regardless of whether you fail to recognize them.

There is enough evil in the world. I would think you wouldn't want to confuse the clarity of that fact.

Hope you snap out of it. You're smarter than this.

EDIT: I wanted to add... semperfortis I'm impressed by your posts. You sound like a decent and honest person.


[edit on 29-9-2006 by loam]

The sentiment is very nice indeed, but still I would like to stay on topic. And the topic is not my posting style or my personality. I'm sure that it would be to the benefit of everyone else as well.

But I'm confused. I haven't changed. I still am the same person I always was.


[edit on 29-9-2006 by ceci2006]

Ceci,
We are truly confused as well.

Those of us that have debated you in the past are wondering what has happened?

This is an emotional topic to be sure, yet what can we hope to gain if our emotions are not kept in check?

Anger never solved anything, and trust me I get angry at work all the time.

Thanks Loam (OH YEAH, Hey "MAN" how you doing?)

Semper

This has nothing to do with anger. But if you think that an intervention needs to be made, u2u a mod, supermod or the Three Amigos. Have them contact me. Otherwise, space is being wasted on a topic that needs to be discussed.

I don't know what you don't comprehend about what I am saying. But I'll say it once again so you understand it: I am staying on topic.



[edit on 29-9-2006 by ceci2006]

The difficulty in this case is that no one alive today was ever a slave in this country.

Just because you are black does not mean you are descended from slaves.

so what is the point of this money? Where will it go? Why should the descendants be entitled to it? They were never slaves.... So I dont understand what this is suppose to do....

I would like to see the reparitions paid just so I didnt have to hear "my ancestors were slaves! whitey is evil and my problems are a result of him." anymore....

SO I agree....pay them the money....but speaking of slavery after the day the money was paid in any attempt to garner sympathy will no longer be tolerated and have to be put up with.

XP,

What a unique approach and it sure would be nice to hear the quiet for awhile.

Something tells me though, that a few dollars will not stop the madness. Never has worked before.

And there is still a valid question out there. I have a black ancestor though many generations removed. Am I qualified for any money? I need a new boat.

Semper

People paid the 9/11 survivors money and the topic regarding 9/11 is brought up often.

People paid the Holocaust survivors money and the topic about the Holocaust is still brought up more than often.

And neither of these recipients requested to put their money in a general fund. Does that mean they are more greedier than the descendents bringing up the lawsuit?

Explain what the difference is between them and not bringing up slavery again?

[edit on 29-9-2006 by ceci2006]