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Gaviotas: A village to reinvent the world

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posted on Sep, 26 2006 @ 04:38 PM
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A place where you can live from the inhibtion of science


Science itself isn't inhibited, it's the implementation of the technology that is strictly managed. Though in hindsight, the Gaviotans took a risk in planting "foreign" Carribian Pines in the Savanna. They had no idea at the time that it would turn out to be sterile so there was always the fear that they might have done wrong. But it all turned out freaking awesome and they are now thriving as a result.

[edit on 26-9-2006 by sardion2000]




posted on Sep, 28 2006 @ 11:10 PM
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posted on Sep, 29 2006 @ 12:35 AM
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This is really cool. I'll have to look into it in more detail. It reminds me a lot of the Arcosanti project in the US, in Arizona if I recall correctly. They are trying to build a self-sustaining arcology, a city that is more efficient in living space and resource use and what not, using top engineering and city planning and sociological considerations. The main difference is the Arcosanti has no politics involved, they just see modern cities as too wasteful in many ways and are trying to improve them. Perhaps in a few days once I learn some more about them and go through all the links and stuff, I'll post something a bit more substantial.



posted on Sep, 29 2006 @ 12:47 AM
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The Gaviotans aren't that political(they try to avoid it for the sake of survival), though they are very ideological, the results of their ideologies, which continue to shift around the core nugget of sustainability, are magnificent. You should check out the book titled the same as this thread, it's excellant!




Perhaps in a few days once I learn some more about them and go through all the links and stuff, I'll post something a bit more substantial.


Please do!

The aforementioned novel paints a very vivid picture of the village(now City I guess) of Gaviotas, a brief history of Columbia itself, all the key people involved(gathered through personal interviews), their innovations(including diagrams), and all the effects both positive and negative their innovations had on the surrounding Indiginous Population. There were many copies in the Library, so I would check there first as I found it hard to find in any bookstore(and I refuse to use the net for transactions now)


[edit on 29-9-2006 by sardion2000]

[edit on 29-9-2006 by sardion2000]



posted on Sep, 29 2006 @ 05:36 PM
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Originally posted by sardion2000
When I get my PhD, I want to start a Gaviotas in Canada. As far North as possible,


Okay, I want in but not where it's cold. Can't you find someplace else to inspire you?

Oh, and how long till you have a PhD? Will you be letting old ladies in then?


Gosh, I really envy this group. I have to start reading up on this. They sound like a ray of hope in the world.



posted on Sep, 29 2006 @ 05:47 PM
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Originally posted by Relentless

Originally posted by sardion2000
When I get my PhD, I want to start a Gaviotas in Canada. As far North as possible,


Okay, I want in but not where it's cold. Can't you find someplace else to inspire you?


Hehe, I'll go anywhere actually. New Mexico is another Ideal place as is Arizona(I also have family in those two states). Australia is also looking prime as well(sooo much empty land there). Heh, I've even considered Alaska and Alberta.


Are there places with Moderate Native population near dirt cheap and nearly worthless land in Nex Mexico/Arizona(limited red tape is a big plus)? I want the place to be relatively isolated so the easiest access will also be a disincentive to gawkers.(Air Access only would be a plus)



Oh, and how long till you have a PhD? Will you be letting old ladies in then?



6 Years approximately, it will take me at least that long to find all the necessary skilled people to make the whole project go foward(I'll need at least 5-10 people at first, it's what Gaviotas started with).

Anyone who is physically able to endure the rigors of such an existance(at least in the beggining) will be welcome. When all the permenant structures are up and the indiginous workforce is in place, then anyone will be welcome. I actually think a place like this could be a great place for Aging Hippies and Gen Xers(and those inbetween) to retire. Paulo Lugali wants to make his paradise a retirement center for Columbian Academics.



Gosh, I really envy this group. I have to start reading up on this. They sound like a ray of hope in the world.


Yeah so do I. If they can do this in war and drug ravaged Columbia, of all places, then it should be fairly easy to do so anywhere there is worthless land that no one wants. I just wish it was safe enough to actually visit their Village, though Paulo Lugali doesn't want N. Americans to come because A. They would be in danger and more importantly, B. Visitors(non hispanic ones at least) would put them in danger.

[edit on 29-9-2006 by sardion2000]

[edit on 29-9-2006 by sardion2000]



posted on Oct, 1 2006 @ 01:08 AM
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I've been thinking long and hard on this subject and I believe I have most of the details hammered out in my head, but there is one thing thats been bugging me, and that is what is the most efficient way to create a system to regulate the Jobs and those who are working on them. Since everyone will be payed the same, the system can be a little simpler then it would have to be in a non-equalized pay society.

Here is my idea(Contrustive Critism necessary for improvements so please, don't hold back!):

Have a Linux based wi-fi system where people can post jobs or join jobs currently in progress.

Each new Job will be givin the Thumbs Up or Down by a anonymous jury whom are selected from a pool of eligable jurors.

When a new job gets posted, a jury is automatically chosen by the computer and those who are chosen HAVE to cast their vote because the Computer system will not let them do anything else until they fulfill that obligation.

After the job gets approved, it gets sent over to the elected employment council, each of whom will serve a maximum of a 6 month term and will not be eligable for re-election for 18 months. The employment councils job is to help the Employer connect with the necessary skilled people to move his job foward. Once all the employees are in place(Employees can join and leave projects at will, only restriction is 2 weeks notice, unless otherwise exempted due to outside influences out of our control), the status of the job is upgraded to Project and be sent over to the Resources Council.

The Resources Council will be responsible for handing out the needed supplies after a timeline is submitted and okayed by this council.

Should a Project breach the timeline it will automatically come up for review and there are a number of options available for that.

1. Increased Resources and Manpower

2. Decreased Resoures and Manpower

3. Suspention of the Project

4. Termination of the Project

This will be voted on by all residents and is manditory for all to participate.

All the administrative stuff will ALL be computerized(with multiple redundant backup systems of course both onsite and offsite).

One other note: Any Job that is too large, will be upgraded to a Public Works project which has to have to approval of ALL residents(in another Manditory Vote).

[edit on 1-10-2006 by sardion2000]



posted on Oct, 1 2006 @ 04:40 AM
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Honestly, I think you are over complicating this issue. It comes across as very rigid, lacking room for creativity and time consuming. I doubt they go into so much detail regarding creating and filling a job at Gavioas do they?

Anyway, the first order of business should be assembling the people themselves, probably with people who are willing to contribute to whatever is needed, that their abilities allow, and the flexibility to "change gears" as the community grows and the needs change.

Just my thoughts.



posted on Oct, 1 2006 @ 05:58 AM
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Honestly, I think you are over complicating this issue. It comes across as very rigid, lacking room for creativity and time consuming. I doubt they go into so much detail regarding creating and filling a job at Gavioas do they?


Okay, thanks. I do think it's a bit rigid too after re-reading it, but a system like the above WILL be needed if the settlement grows too quickly. It would be a way to reign in growth, allow a large number of people to prioritize much more efficiently, and will allow us to build in transparency right from the get-go. But then again, I may be thinking too much like an Engineer.

Basically what my primary inspiration of this portion is something called "The Bounty Economy."

www.jrmooneyham.com...



The Bounty Economy is not a complex topic. Essentially it's merely a wide open invitation to ideas for solving problems for a fee, presented to all comers. In a global economy, rife with cut throat competition, such methods for dealing with tough problems are increasingly hard to beat. Especially now that ever improving computer software and performance allows for easy analysis, comparision, and judgement of the value of thousands of ideas per minute. Of course, credibility, accountability, and fairness rule supreme in the process-- illegitimate offers usually ruin forever the chance for the offending entity to successfully field such bounty offers again-- as the bounty economy's memory is forever.


Also which parts in particular do you think are too rigid?

As for finding people willing to do this, I have already found several in my 'hood. I've even intruiged my father. Unfortunately, all save for one, will not be needed in the initial settlement(I've got one Carpenter who is extremely eager about this, he was going to join a Hippy Commune before I came to him with this idea, which appealed to him much more). There are many more people on my street alone that will definately be interested (I live near what used to be a Hippy Coop housing project, a lot of them are still around).

I've also decided to purchase the land ASAP and start spending summers there just to learn the lay of the land and meet the locals.

Thank you for the Support and Input.


[edit on 1-10-2006 by sardion2000]



posted on Oct, 1 2006 @ 07:21 AM
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in trying to find out more about Gavitos i did come across this 1998 article;
www.motherjones.com...



The scientists (Bogota engineers) weren't seeking an alternative lifestyle
so much as applying common sense to use what little materials lay at hand.
[...barren, sparsley settled savannas constitute much of the tropics...]

the eastern plain in Columbia was found suitable as a research station site

around the same time, late 1960s-early 1970s, another experiment/project
was started in the unhospitable AZ desert, named Arcosanti

whats really interesting (& rather eerie?) is that the 'visionaries' are named
Paolo Lugari in the case of Gavitos, circa 1971
Paolo Soleri in the case of Arcosanti, circa 1970

the Gavitos has become a 3rd world positive influence for many low-tech innovations
while Arcosanti has become a new-age, broken dream relic of 'what might have been'

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

if youse are seriously considering a location for a 21st century attempt
you might look at the
Shelter From The Storm



posted on Oct, 1 2006 @ 04:54 PM
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Thanks for the links.
I think I'd like to visit this Arcosanti someday soon(maybe next summer if I gots the cash, perhaps I can get my uncle to get me cheap seats on a flight and my cousin may be able to get me cheap rooms...hrmm)

Though it is not my intention to create an "Arcology". My settlement needs to be part of Nature as well as Complimentary and Sustainable without removing it completely from nature(all the arcologies I've read about are huge, massive structures with little conformity to the geology of the land(most I've seen are mostly above it)).

One of my wild dreams for the future is to create an Arcology of sorts, underground that is, and only for the cold months. I want there to be warm and pleasant community gathering places all year around, perhaps even linking up all the houses with this underworld via the basement, though, that is too far off though to put much serious thought into right atm.


If you, or anyone else for that matter, has any more links to failed experiments of this nature, please post them here. I want to learn from their mistakes.

Yes I am serious about it. It has always been my intention to dedicate my knowledge of Nanotech Engineering to Humanitarian causes, rather than pure profit. Originally I intended to go the rout of a Non-Profit think tank. My opinion of Non-Profits, however, has taken a nosedive recently. For-profit is the way to go, as is equalized pay, and cooperative ownership. I've seen a few Cooperatives grow and thrive. I'll take some pictures of "The Big Carrot" soon, that is the largest Co-operative for-profit egalitarian company(they sell only "Green" merchandise)in the city(too my knowledge). If my project gets off the ground and we develop a sustainable product quickly, I believe the Big Carrot will be more then happy to carry our products.

[edit on 1-10-2006 by sardion2000]



posted on Oct, 1 2006 @ 06:29 PM
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Any terrain in the Southwest is too rocky to sustain growth of proper vegetaion. I was just there a week ago on vacation. My girlfriend is from New Mexico. The only place I saw ANY trees whatsoever was in the mountaines where there is a continuous supply of moisture due to the elevation. Go anywhere else in the Southwest not on top of a mountain at least 5000 feet and you will not see a single tree.

The town of Gaviotas is located near the equator in a land where the soil is much more EARTHY and less ROCKY. This is why they have those drainage canals in the southwest to curb flooding even thpugh they recieve less annual precipitation than the Southeast. The water cannot seep through the ground deep enough to supply the roots of trees.

My parents have not set foot in Colombia since they left to America in the 70's except for six months when I was an infant and went with them due to complicated life matters shortly after I was born here. I have close to no knowledge on the land of which I am descended from except from what I am told by my parents and relatives who update them on issues there. The country is not war-torn in the sense of like ruined cities and villages like you may see in Africa or Asia. Close to all the fighting has, is, and will continue to be done in the jungles. There have of course been many attacks on key facilites in towns, but President Uribe is extremely harsh with the rebels.

One of the prime reasons they organized in the early years was to protect Colombia's rich oil supplies in the south-cnetral part of the country from hungry capitalists. they grew corrupt from pwoer however and began demanding protection taxes and directly involved with the drug trade. That is when they became hated by the people.

Back on topic, now I have never herad of Gaviotas, my father has heard of the name but does not know much about it. Personally, I know I can survive in that kind of environment but would prefer not too. Humans have gone too far as a society to just turn back to the simple ways. I grew up in the city and have always lived here. I love it. The infrastructure, the roads, the swarms of people. I love them with a passion. I have no problem with having to slaughter animals for meat, but why should I? We should focus more on adapting our current cities to be more environmentally correct and focus on a massive education campaign.

there is no need to have to isolate ourselves from society and try and start over. We can start over right where we are and go forward at the same time. We are already doing it right now. Granted it is going slowly, but imagine if you seperate those people to create an isolated town then the ignorant masses (i say that mercifully with me included) will be deprived from great minds that can teach us and help us begin greater sustainability efforts in our own communities.

I am not knocking it, but which one of yall have had to actually slaughter an animal period? What about a particular one or type of animal that you were close to? what about doing it for food and not out of mercy for its suffering?

How do you plan on controlling the pests that may infest your crops? Or sustaining the creatures that will control them? Zoning issues? All of the isolated land not found directly within the limtis of a cities or counties jurisdiction are owned by the Federal government. Our government has no mercy when it comes to taxes. Every year your township grows is a growth in property tax, whether you are doing it for the good of the world or not. Failure to pay those taxes, and you may find yourself ending up in a situation like that in Waco trying to protect your hard work. It will be mercilessly siezed, sold off, and lies will be made up about your people.

The fact that Gaviotas was started during a time of civil strife and warring among factions actually helped it succeed due to the instability of the country at the time and the need to keep their resources focused on the rebels. Thanks to that time that passed and the events that unfolded they managed to earn the respect. on top of that it was and is currently surrouned by some of the most unforgiving land for any kind of battle engagement (jungle/forest)

It is a wonderful thing this community has achieved, and it belongs to them alone. Nothing like that can ever be reproduced in the states, and I do not believe the climate anywhere in Canada would be right for it. How many different kinds of crops are grown up there anyways?

Perhaps in a few years I will have the opportunity to visit the town for an educational vacation experience, but I would not live in a place like that if I did not have too. Organized society in a modern world is much more appealing to me.

either way, with all the obstacles ahead of yall, I wish you good luck in your efforts Sardion. I would definetly visit any successful sustainable townships you and others may develop in the future, although my advice would be to just join them. Trust me Colombia is not as scary as the Western news used to make it out to be, and you already know for the most part the town itself is safe.



posted on Oct, 2 2006 @ 03:41 PM
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But I do not plan on building a permenant "society" where I plan to live forever. I plan on building a Cooperative For-profit business, based on Hi-Technology with Gaviotas as the Inspiration.




It is a wonderful thing this community has achieved, and it belongs to them alone. Nothing like that can ever be reproduced in the states, and I do not believe the climate anywhere in Canada would be right for it. How many different kinds of crops are grown up there anyways?


Lots of crops can be grown up here. Everything from Grapes to Pomegranites(providing the necessary greenhouses are available that is
). I don't plan to use conventional farming methods either, mostly I'll be relying on Greenhouses powered by micro-hydro to feed me and the people who are with me for the winter.

As for slaughtering animals, the most I've done is cleaned and gutted a fish and if the job smells half as bad as that, then it'll be a piece of cake.

Thanks for the Info on the Southwest, I guess thats out. The only reason it appealed to me was the vast amounts of sunlight. (But after doing whipping up some numbers, using hydro/wind powered would be more efficient. That way I can stack the greenhousese ontop of one another and lower the overall land footprint dramatically)

It's always good to have some skeptics weigh in.


I always knew that the majority would not go for this(which I have stated before I believe).



either way, with all the obstacles ahead of yall, I wish you good luck in your efforts Sardion. I would definetly visit any successful sustainable townships you and others may develop in the future, although my advice would be to just join them.


Thank you! I may just do that if I don't find the right people.



Trust me Colombia is not as scary as the Western news used to make it out to be, and you already know for the most part the town itself is safe.


Really? Paolo Lugali himself advises N. Americans not to visit primarily because it would put them in the crosshairs of the FARC and possibly the Paramilitary groups that roam the country-side.

[edit on 2-10-2006 by sardion2000]



posted on Oct, 16 2006 @ 11:50 AM
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Here is a research program that is similiar to what I plan on doing.

www.bluemountainpeakranch.com...

This project is in Texas.



posted on Oct, 25 2006 @ 04:58 AM
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Kinsale Energy Descent Plan (PDF Warning)

The story of the Kinsale Energy Descent Action Plan is an extraordinary one. A mid-thirties Englishman with a penchant for permaculture and an interest in peak oil moves to rural Ireland, starts teaching at the local further education college, and ends up writing, with his students, a ground-breaking document: the first timetabled strategy for weaning a town off fossil fuels. And what is more, that small Irish town actually adopts the action plan and starts to implement it.

Kinsale is a seaside town of 7000 inhabitants renowned as Ireland’s gourmet food capital, as well as the home of a well-known jazz festival. Kinsale 2021 is the title of the document: Rob Hopkins is the man, who persuaded Kinsale Further Education College to start the first full-time two year course in Europe training in people in Practical Sustainability.


Transition Culture

How to wean a town off Fossil Fuels

This article is where I found the links above.

[edit on 25-10-2006 by sardion2000]

[edit on 25-10-2006 by sardion2000]



posted on Nov, 1 2006 @ 12:52 PM
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Here is a link to the current Wikipedia list of utopian communities:

en.wikipedia.org...:Utopian_communities

It may be extremely incomplete, of course. For example, it does not include the planned U.S. community of Greeley, Colorado. Greeley is northeast of the city of
Denver, Colorado. It was founded in 1870 as a temperance colony by a former newspaper editor. It was in Greeley in the 1940s that Sayyid Qutb, the Egyptian fundamentalist writer who later inspired 20th and 21st century radical Islamist movements, spent several months and gained his more positive impressions of America, even though he decried the racism he found everywhere in the U.S.

Regarding your thoughts about tight controls over the assignment of jobs, I'd say that sounds about right, actually. Realistic. It wasn't only Lord Acton who thought that power corrupts.

Also, for anyone concerned that a new planned community might be too primitive, and too much of a sacrifice, keep in mind the discussion from Michael Crichton's novel, Jurassic Park, where the mathematician Ian Malcolm reminds the paleobotanist, Dr. Ellie Satler, that the cavedwellers in Lascaux, France, thousands of years before, only had to work 20 hours a week to provide for all their needs. Something to think about!

Let us know about any other questions you have about finding sources of information. We'll see what we can find out.

[edit on 11/1/2006 by Uphill]



posted on Nov, 1 2006 @ 01:07 PM
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Tahnk You sardion2000 for this very interesting thread.I will definitely buy the book and read about this group of people.There is hope after all



posted on Nov, 7 2006 @ 09:26 AM
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Originally posted by sardion2000
Here is a research program that is similiar to what I plan on doing.

www.bluemountainpeakranch.com...

This project is in Texas.





Do you know which aquifer they are replenishing? ...I don't think it's the Ogallala/Great Plains aquifer - too far south. But I'm not sure...


.



posted on Nov, 7 2006 @ 11:53 AM
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Here's where the ranch is located. Not sure of which specific one they are replenishing.

Blue Mountain Peak Ranch
3699 Blue Mountain Lane
Mason, Texas 76856

Google Maps link to Mason, Texas

I cannot find the specific location of the Ranch though.

You should check out the Kinsale Energy Descent plan too. The most ambitious project I've read about.

[edit on 7-11-2006 by sardion2000]



posted on Nov, 7 2006 @ 05:08 PM
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Thanks sardion. I was being lazy.


Just googled it - it's the Hickory Sandstone Aquifer. Here's a quick description.



GEOLOGY AND HYDROGEOLOGY OF THE FAULT-PARTITIONED HICKORY AQUIFER IN NORTHERN MASON COUNTY, CENTRAL TEXAS

The Cambrian-age Hickory Sandstone is a major aquifer in Central Texas. The Hickory Sandstone is a 450 ft (137 m) thick, high porosity, siliciclastic unit that unconformably overlies Precambrian crystalline basement. A system of N- and NE-trending normal and oblique-slip faults structurally partition the Hickory Sandstone aquifer within the study area in northern Mason County. Typically, the Hickory Sandstone is only partially offset across the faults and portions of the saturated interval of the aquifer usually are juxtaposed against each other across the faults. Exposures of shear zones of faults in sandstone horizons exhibit significant grain comminution and porosity reduction; shear zones containing deformed clay interbeds, however, are not exposed.

The observed spatial and temporal variations of water levels in wells in the study area clearly show that faults impede the lateral flow of groundwater and influence both the short- and long-term hydraulic responses of fault-defined regions. The existence of a low conductance fault is indicated by one or more of the following features: 1) an anomalously large hydraulic-head change across the fault, 2) a significant variation of the hydraulic gradient in proximity to and on either side of the fault, and 3) poor or indiscernible hydraulic communication between wells on either side of the fault. In general, the greater the displacement of a fault, the greater is the effect of the fault on the groundwater system. Discernible effects are observed for discrete faults with displacements as small as 50 to 75 ft (15-23 m). Regions with numerous small faults dramatically reduce production rates of wells.

The study area can be subdivided into at least three major hydraulic compartments with boundaries defined by faults with at least 100 ft (30 m) of displacement. Poor hydraulic communication exists between wells in neighboring major hydraulic compartments, such that irrigation pumping in one compartment induces in the neighboring compartment an anomalously small drawdown relative to that expected in a laterally uniform aquifer. The major hydraulic compartments are further subdivided into subcompartments by faults across which there is relatively good hydraulic communication, yet the faults still influence the short-term water-level variations within the subcompartments. Following a long period of sustained pumping, residual drawdowns after a short time of recovery (5-12 days) differ significantly from compartment to compartment. Pumping-induced drawdown and recovery characteristics are similar for wells within the same major hydraulic compartment, but often differ from those of wells in adjacent compartments. These differences reflect, in part, the differences in the areal extent of the compartment and the rate of groundwater flow into and out of the compartment. Annual and longer-term water-level declines differ significantly among the hydraulic compartments, which reflects a limited flow of groundwater from a hydraulic compartment positioned up-gradient into an adjacent down-gradient hydraulic compartment.




I have a thing about aquifers.



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