Not being a member of the UFO community, I was unaware how divided and quarrelsome it is until I started visiting ATS and reading the UFO-related posts here.

For a time I wondered why this was so. Then the penny dropped.

Every UFO believer and proponent has his or her unique story to tell. Every one of them insists that his or her story is true.

But the stories don't substantiate one another. Most of the time, they contradict one another. So to protect the credibility of his or her own claim, every UFO proponent or believer must claim that some or all of the other claimants are lying.

Gosh, no wonder your 'community' is so disunited. Everyone in it is calling practically everyone else in it a liar.

Get real, folks. If UFOs really existed, don't you think people's experiences of them would tally better?

Listen: if you want the rest of us to believe you, you'd better settle your differences, put your heads together and come up with a single, consistent story. Some scientifically credible proof would probably help a bit, too.

how does having the same story prove anything? If someone has proof about aliens, they need to present the proof to us. Everything else is useless. Some people on this site want to believe so badly that they lie to themselves and people on this board for attention or a feeling of self worth.

I am a proof addict. Sorry to burst your bubbles. Simply saying 'Theres an alien implant under my arm' and then posting a really blurry picture of your arm doesnt count.

I dont know who all these people are but usually its some 18-21 year old child who starts an account on here and then claims to have direct contact with god or aliens but as soon as you ask for proof they always respond with some garbage. I wish the mods would force people to prove their claims or be banned but they dont do it enough.

Proof..
The problem is not that there is no proof. It's that it is ignored, rediculed and hoaxed by the general public. Now tell me what's the point in sharing it? If you want to know - go digg the truth out. Chat with the people involved privately. Run your own investigation. That is the only way until US gov. will oficially disclose everything. And that won't happen soon, don't even count on it.

evan if 2 people witness the same event their accounts are most likley to differ and posibley contradict one another,


show me any group of people who belive in something and dont disagree on the ins and outs,

I had no interest in aliens until they came to me and I spent a decade learning about them. They taught me all about reality which is multidimensional. They really opened my mind. But when I went on the web eventually I found every individual is entranced by their own personal experience or situation in life and is working from that unique viewpoint. The only things they can accept are things which fit their own puzzle perfectly. They are all looking for the next exact piece to their puzzle so they can move forwards. But each person is working on a small area of a gigantic puzzle that will eventually come together. They need to hear or read the exact mathematical sequence of tones before they can accept and move on. It's an individual growth thing.

Also ufos and aliens come in endless varieties and so each encounter brings new questions and answers with it, and no answer fits all the questions but is still valid to a certain question.

Originally posted by Astyanax

Every UFO believer and proponent has his or her unique story to tell.

Every UFO story IS unique , uniqueness has no bearing on veracity

Every one of them insists that his or her story is true.

All could be true , or equally [ as is my opinion ] false

But the stories don't substantiate one another. Most of the time, they contradict one another

it is fallacious to claim that any detail of bobs claim to have been abducted by martians and taken to their secret moon base , should have any bearing on the veracity of jims claim that he was abducted and probed but andromedans

Get real, folks. If UFOs really existed, don't you think people's experiences of them would tally better?

No , it does not follow that they should – all claims would only tally if there was a single monobloc “ alien race “ with a uniform agenda , policy and operating doctrine .

As UFO proponents claim there are multiple alien races , some hostile to each other even

Then your question is baseless .

Even a mundane claim such as “ I was attacked by the US navy “ from 3 different people in different parts of the world , over the last 60 years could generate 3 seemingly contradictory stories . ie Different uniforms , weapons , ethnicity , goals , tactics , motives etc

And if you did not have access to the ORBAT , TOE and deployment history of the USN , relevant to each sighting

Then if you had investigated one claim , and believed it to be true , you would be inclined to dismiss the other two – as their accounts of the USN contradict what you know to be true

Now getting back to aliens – as we are not omnipotent , and do not have information on the make up of every possible alien culture that may [ or may not ] be out there – and their goals , ORBATs , physiology etc it is impossible to state that seemingly contradictory stories are infact actually contradictory at all

Listen: if you want the rest of us to believe you, you'd better settle your differences, put your heads together and come up with a single, consistent story.

Every UFO claim cannot be shoe horned into a “ single consistent story “ , for the reasons outlined elsewhere

I will state again – UFOolgists claim “ evidence “ of “ greys “ , “ Nordics “ , “ draconians” etc etc etc

Why

Expecting uniformity is like expecting uniformity from Terran life forms

Would you expect that stories of “ life on earth “ as told by an alien would not differentiate the vast differences , even between human cultures , never mind species ??

Some scientifically credible proof would probably help a bit, too.

At last we agree on a point , whoo hoo . I will close here on a happy note

I think everyone that's interested in ufo's is waiting for their next big move. Ufos have gone from sightings of blurry lights in the distance to abduction cases where ther is close contact with the aliens...closer than many abductees would like. Those who closely follow these alien creatures are waiting for them to make a mass public appearance where hundreds or thousands of people view the aliens at the same time and perhaps even interact with them. That would be the next BIG step in the ufo saga.

I'll tell you why.. Ego.

I think John Lear said it best here on ATS when he said that it was just a big ego trip for many of the so called 'leaders' in the UFO community.

Originally posted by Astyanax
Gosh, no wonder your 'community' is so disunited. Everyone in it is calling practically everyone else in it a liar..

These members are all aliens. They lack the capability to downgrade their own mind to the levels of humans. Just visit any other forums on the Net, that have discussions about anything. You'll see, how good these forums are. People are discussing everything else as well, swapping E-mail addresses and phone numbers, discussing meetings (in threads as well(, talking about personal feelings, etc etc.

None of the threads here (except some on BTS) include human feelings, if they do, that member may easily become banned for doing so. It's a shame for such a monsterous forum. But what does this all proove? Those members acting such way have no reason to act the way humans do,

--because it's none of your business how do I feel, I can't even describe it with human words, and I am not going to share it here, because other aliens may see it. But, feel delighted that I'm visiting your forum, and accept me the way I am here. I haven't changed much since 3 years I'm here on ATS, and I'm not willing to do so, but I (and my relatives) will have lots of usernames here in order to gain the most visitings for statistics on this site. This is money, aand Greys need it.

why is it lately most threads here are trying to say UFOs dont exist
i think most people here should be trying to prove they do exist

how are we aliens
i no who i am and im am not a alien
no feeling to there post i guess you need to read more of the posts
all you get is personal feelings

[edit on 6-9-2006 by CYRAX]

[edit on 6-9-2006 by CYRAX]

It seems that if those people involved with aliens have such a difficult time getting along with each other, then those ufo enthusiasts who expect solutions to earthly social problems from their "space brothers" are very misguided. Alien intervention in earthly problems would probably only aggravate them. They should go back where they came from and stay away from humans.

Originally posted by Astyanax
Not being a member of the UFO community, I was unaware how divided and quarrelsome it is until I started visiting ATS and reading the UFO-related posts here.

Gosh, no wonder your 'community' is so disunited. Everyone in it is calling practically everyone else in it a liar.

Listen: if you want the rest of us to believe you, you'd better settle your differences, put your heads together and come up with a single, consistent story. Some scientifically credible proof would probably help a bit, too.

ATS is not, in my experience at least, not a gathering of the true believers, on any side of the question. If that's what you want, you're in the wrong place.

Nope, this place is more like a family reunion on St. Patrick's Day: to an outsider it all looks like a drunken brawl, but there's actually a lot of love and respect along with the shouting and flying furniture.

The true sceptics and ernest researchers who hang around here, it seems to me, invite debate and discent; any theory which doesn't step on a few toes is probably not going to get closer to the truth, whatever it turns out to be.

You probably need to brush up on the concept of "proof". In science, unlike math and jury trials, there is no "proof". There are observations, hypotheses (good guesses) about the observations, and theories which try to explain the observations and which may or may not fit the hypotheses. The final piece of the puzzle are facts, further observations, which may support one or more of the theories. There is never "proof".

Let's say that Esoteric Teacher finds a downed flying saucer in his back yard, ships it off to Washington, and it's put on display at the Air and Space Museum. The dead aliens inside end up next to a woolly mamoth across the Mall at the Museum of Natural History.

Do we have proof? No.

It entirely possible that our entire universe is a Matrix-style computer simulation* and the spacecraft doesn't really exist at all. Given that , the smoking-gun exhibits only support the idea that UFOs are "real" alien spacecraft, and in fact may offer more support that this is all just a simulation since the idea E.T. would stumble across a previously unseen spaceship in his own backyard is pretty preposterous.

Of course, it's also possible that someone bought a load of old Twilight Zone props on eBay, dumped the broken and moldy bits in E.T.'s backyard, and the scientists got it all wrong (it happens: that's why there is are no brontosoruses anymore).

* (I read recently that, if it is ever possible to build a computer capable of accuratley portraying even one person's view of the universe, the odds are nearly 100% that it has been built and YOU are being simulated.)

Sadly, there are a number of people out there who muddle the stories intentionally or who spread false stories to discredit those with more believable stories. The thing that cracks me up are the folks who are so desperate to believe they will accept anything you throw at them. Case in point the S word. That story was told and the story teller screwed up the crew number by using crappy math that resulted in an extra person dying on the mission. Now there are new info leaks that claim only 3 people went on this mission and there is a whole community of folks out there who accept this lunacy.


it's like the 9/11 conspiracy theories. bush did it, he also did the 93 bombing and a few other things. No, his father did. no, the cia did it. no wait, it was aliens.


too many theories make it almost impossible to believe any of them.

I spent a while on whitley strieber's website trying to describe the aliens and their technology I had come across and I found that the entire forums are dominated by a group of individuals who have never actually encountered an alien or ufo but they sure have plenty to say on the subject. In fact they drown out every bit of truth with their negative comments about the subject. The only person in touch with aliens who is permitted to write unmolested posts there is a man who says the aliens told him the Jewish leader is pure evil and is abducting people. Whitley says the aliens come from the nazis and we should all get these new blonde bodies he knows are being created for us through cloning, and the only alien contactee allowed to speak on his site is spreading hate towards a Jewish leader. All posts and threads which do not fit their agenda are deleted. There are no archives of the millions of alien encounters people reported there. People go there, report their encounter, get told to get a mental checkup, then have their thread deleted. The only thread allowed to survive there is one started by a woman who reported a ufo her family saw, and a government person claiming to be an experienced government killer trained by nazis immediately took over the thread and ordered everyone else off or else they would get hurt. Another poster went to meet the killer and swore to keep the thread centered solely on the government for all time. The killer left and now that thread is the backbone of whitleys website. Anyone going on to it posting about aliens or ufos is called insane and a criminal for disturbing the government discussion. Whitley encourages such monstrous treatment of abductees there and is the darkest criminal of our time.

So yes there is arguments within the ufo community and they often come from people who have no interest in aliens or ufos and actively wipe out anything to do with such things.

anit-semitic aliens. that's a new one.

Thats an interesting story, probed. I've never been to Whitley's site.

My question to you is this:
If it all comes down to stories, and groups of stories that fit into someone's beliefs, then how is it any different than the general fermentation of a religeon based on floklore vetted for the collective values of a particular site?

I'm not claiming you are making anything up. I can't possibly know if you are or not based on what little I know of you. But tell me, what does it feel like to have had personal experiences that other people don't believe?

What do you make of the fact that people's stories don't add up?

Keep in mind that when an airplane crashed into the ocean off of Long Island, observers on the ground gave entirely differing reports of what happened to the aircraft. Assuming all of them actually saw the aircraft, the key point is that they all saw the aircraft crash. This was the anomolous and tragic event they witnessed. The details, well, they don't seem to fit with the reality of what happened, but fit more with the people who claimed them. That doesn't mean that an event, (an aircraft crash) didn't happen. I think someone noted this earlier in the thread.

But by in large, we know the original poster is being facetious. I guess the question is, why should the original poster expect to be able to believe incredible, intangible, unrepeatable unsubstantiated stories told by other people? And how must it feel to be an intelligent, rational person who has experienced such a thing, and know that no sane person can believe them?

Listen: if you want the rest of us to believe you, you'd better settle your differences, put your heads together and come up with a single, consistent story. Some scientifically credible proof would probably help a bit, too.

Well, if there was PROOF, wouldn't be an issue, would it?
There is plenty of scientifically credible EVIDENCE though, and that is why there are a few well-credentialled people involved in such research.

A single, consistent story would prove nothing. Most stories involving Santa Claus are consistent, yet you don't see his non-existence as "questioned" do you?

The real reason there is so much dissention in the UFO community, is because it is highly subjective as to which case/s different researchers feel are not genuine. And, some researchers are less careful in their research than others.

For example, there are some researchers who believe the Billy Meier case, and some who do not (I'm firmly in the NOT category). There are some who feel the Mexican Air Force infrared video footage captured spaceships...to me, it's just oil rig fires... For just about every case, you'll find researchers who do and those who do not believe the evidence supports an extraterrestrial craft as the most logical conclusion.

Myself, I often find that the evidence points away from extraterrestrial craft, or at least isn't substantial enough to warrant that conclusion. However, if even ONE or a handfull of cases DO seem to fit that explanation best, well THAT is something worth pondering and further investigation...and these are often the ones I most often devote my time to.

Currently, I'm about 3/4 of the way into my investigation of the Phoenix Lights case. So far, I'm not seeing any substantial evidence that flares couldn't account for BOTH sighting periods...(I know, I know...just wait and see what I present, THEN we can all discuss) and I found that really surprising. But, so far, its what the evidence is showing. Not going further into it here, but I'll present all of my evidence in the massive thread, along with pics, maps, the whole bit.

I actually went into the Roswell Case initially expecting to find more evidence supporting the Mogul theory, but the more I investigated, the more holes the Mogul explanation had, until it eventually just unravelled. I just follow the evidence, and see where it leads. Many UFO researchers need to profit off their research, and do it for a living. This necessity creates a need to produce something that "sells". Often, this can create a direct conflict with truth and trust, and we see exaggerations or just outright lies. Luckily for me, it's an intellectual hobby, and I have no such agenda. I present the evidence, and my conclusion based on that evidence. I frankly enjoy those with other viewpoints, as it may allow me to see holes in my argument, or even learn other facts that I didn't come across in my research.

While I wouldn't mind getting a book out at some point in my lifetime, it would be to inform, not to "get rich". I'd definitely NEVER want to speak at a UFO convention or anything to try and "sell" it, though a discussion panel would probably be interesting.

What do you make of the fact that people's stories don't add up?

Keep in mind that when an airplane crashed into the ocean off of Long Island, observers on the ground gave entirely differing reports of what happened to the aircraft. Assuming all of them actually saw the aircraft, the key point is that they all saw the aircraft crash. This was the anomolous and tragic event they witnessed. The details, well, they don't seem to fit with the reality of what happened, but fit more with the people who claimed them. That doesn't mean that an event, (an aircraft crash) didn't happen

The majority of witnesses (to anything) are not skilled witnesses. That is why sightings made by pilots and military officers are held to be more credible. These individuals are used to what they see in the sky, and are more qualified to rule out other possibilities. Just like witnesses to a crime. Witnesses rarely agree, based on their own observation skills, memory, and personal feelings, etc. Different witnesses may describe the same suspect as black, hispanic, Puerto Rican, Indian, etc. especially if they are of a different race, and have little exposure to such individuals. Likewise, they may not all remember the color of his jacket, height, weight, etc. UFO witnesses are no different. A pilot may estimate the height of an object at 5000 feet, while another witness says 1000 feet, and yet another says 500. Same goes for size. A yellow light to me may look orange to someone else (especially given my colorblindness, hehe...).

Then you have abductions....

With the exception of the Hill Case, and the Travis Walton Case, I simply can't buy into the majority of these...especially repeat abductions and conversations, etc.

Why not? Simple, because I just cannot fathom that anyone in regular contact with Extraterrestrial beings can't seem to get a picture of them, the interior of their craft, or give some kind of other irrefutable evidence to back up such a claim.

In the Hill Case, we have 1) an initial reluctance to tell the story, 2) military reports, investigation, etc., 3) the starmap...simply incredible. (to those unaware, it isn't just the pattern, it's the fact that the COLOR of stars are denoted, before some of that info was even KNOWN about them!), 4) expert testimony of one of THE most prominent psychologists of the military, etc., etc.

Whereas abductees like Billy Meier claim to talk to aliens on a regular basis, and only produce UFO pics of models, screenshots off of tv programs, and regular humans (face out of frame) wearing gold foil jumpsuits with pvc pipe ray guns....

So yeah, little wonder why there is some dissention in the ranks, hehe.....

[edit on 6-9-2006 by Gazrok]

Originally posted by Ectoterrestrial
That's an interesting story, probed. I've never been to Whitley's site.

My question to you is this:
If it all comes down to stories, and groups of stories that fit into someone's beliefs, then how is it any different than the general fermentation of a religion based on folklore vetted for the collective values of a particular site?

I think it is an upgrading or updating of our older religions. Technology and science took us beyond the old religious views of God and creation so the beings who catalyzed such old beliefs have now manifested new wonders to captivate and guide us in various ways.

But religious people spend most of their time trying to condemn other religions or other peoples spiritual experiences because they do not fit into a particular crystallized view written down in some books. And the ufo/alien community is also fighting over which experiences are real or which ones come from the good aliens and which ones come from the bad. So humans fight about things rather than just unite and agree to disagree.

I've learned to accept that no one sees things the way I do or know the aliens like I do, so I don't argue with anyone anymore. I'm working on a book instead that will let everyone make physical contact with the aliens. Then they will learn about the aliens from direct experience and you will hear all types of new information coming from such contact. It's like people going into the wilds on safari and all coming back with unique tales to tell even though they generally went to the same place more or less. The aliens are so amazing that there is a million different ways to describe them.

The key point being made is valid by virtue of how open ended the "Study" of the phenomenon is. There simply are no bounderies in which to contain and make a viable consensus.

We all know what proof is and how it helps bind the findings for other popular subject matter. We shouldn't kid ourselves into accepting wild speculation, grandiose claims, and infinite excuses instead of realizable and tangible evidence.
Without a formal base, the whole foundation leaks like a sieve, sporting ever more colorful events and claims.

Just one example.
Alien Species? Federation of aliens? How so?
When people claim to communicate with, know of and about multi species races when we have yet to present one solitary creature as evidence.


[edit on 6-9-2006 by nullster]

an important point to remember is that with the alien/ufo phenom we have numerous entities hiding evidence and covering up facts with lies and misinformation. There's a whole active force working against the exposure of proof. Religious leaders have always destroyed evidence and burned books also. In fact I have spoken to a lot of the top religious organizations which collect second hand goods from people and they all tell me they sort out any non Christian books from peoples donations and burn them. They said they burn many tons of books every year.

There was a guy who made an lp recording of spirit voices and the church had it banned.

So proof is hard to find and when it is found there are people who will actively try to destroy that proof. So all we are basically left with is our personal experiences to share and try to make sense of.