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A few observations about the anti-masons here

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posted on Sep, 3 2006 @ 03:08 AM
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I've noticed that the regular anti-masonic posters in this forum all make a few of the same basic arguments:

1) Anti-Christian - Even though we've never claimed to be Christian, and are admittedly not a religious organization.

2) Albert Pike - As if one person could speak for an entire group.

3) 33 Degrees - They will actually argue that WE don't understand the structure of our own organization and it's rites.

4) Baphomet - Didn't the author of that hoax even denounce it himself?

5) Masons Control The World - But they can never show how...

6) Masons Molest Children - But they can never produce who...

7) Masons Practice Disinformation - And when we say we don't, they go "AHA, see? I told you so..."

In particular, I've noticed that every anti-mason seems to bring up EACH of these objections like clockwork.

And I've noticed that they PRESENT their assertions pretty clearly, but when confronted about their points, they can't form a coherent argument, and come of as blithering idiots... it's almost like they are reading from some sort of pamphlet or guidebook. They've got the anti- bulletpoints down, but don't understand the full arguments.

Most often, these conversations are initiated by the anti-masons. It'd be one thing if they were responding to masons:

Mason: Masonry is great! We don't do *bad thing*!
Anti: But what about *canned argument*?

But no, it is most often the other way around:

Anti: I object to masonry for *canned argument*!
Mason: Response!

As such, I can only conclude that the anti-masons are part of one or more semi-organized campaigns against freemasonry.


Edit: Fixed BBCode

[edit on 9/3/2006 by Hobbes]




posted on Sep, 3 2006 @ 07:16 PM
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A couple of the posters are indeed part of an organised campaign, and links to their forum have been posted in the past, in which guys like Eidelweisse Pirate have been trying to rally up support to denounce Masonry here at ATS. It kinda takes the sting out of their "operations" when the links are provided here.

Ironic, isn't it, that the organised campaigning is exactly what they accuse the Freemasons of here at ATS?...

What's that term in psychology? Oh yeah... "projecting".



posted on Sep, 3 2006 @ 07:40 PM
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1) Anti-Christian: Not me, but I can see their point of view. It's one thing to say that all religions are equally valid in a Politically Correct place like the public schools or the workplace, but quite another ( for a Christian ) in a voluntary social setting. Christians are required to believe that there is only one true religion; theirs. Members of your organization write that all religions are subsets of the Ancient Wisdom, which belief is not acceptable to a true believer.

2) Albert Pike: When a guy who calls himself "Sovereign Grand Commander of the Supreme Council of the 33d degree" writes a book, people tend to believe that he knows whereof he writes.

3) 33 Degrees: Having read the writings of 33d degree Freemasons, I tend to agree. They all state clearly that the Blue Lodge has been misled by the White Lodge.

4) Baphomet: Not me.

5) Masons Control The World: How I got interested in Freemasonry: Check out the Warren Commision, the investigation into the JFK assassination. See how many 33d degree Freemasons were involved.

6) Masons Molest Children: Not me

7) Masons Practice Disinformation: Again, read the writings of 33d degree Freemasons. They all state clearly that the Blue Lodge has been misled by the White Lodge.

As such, I can only conclude that the anti-masons are part of one or more semi-organized campaigns against freemasonry.

Having read the writings of 33d degree Freemasons, I can only conclude that Freemasonry is an organized campaign against humanity.



posted on Sep, 3 2006 @ 08:47 PM
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xenu brings order,

Pay close attention, now.


Originally posted by xenu brings order
Christians are required to believe that there is only one true religion; theirs.


No. Jesus (the Christ) said "In my Father's house are MANY dwelling-places. It's completely up to HIM (not US) who (or is it "whom") dwells in them.


2) Albert Pike: When a guy who calls himself "Sovereign Grand Commander of the Supreme Council of the 33d degree" writes a book, people tend to believe that he knows whereof he writes.


Well, perhaps people who are members of the Ancient & Accepted Scottish Rite of Freemasonry (i.e. the Supreme Council of the Southern Jurisdiction, U.S.A.) If others choose to believe him, that's fine. Pike was a bit odd, admittedly, but a very intelligent man. And a Trinitarian Christian to boot!

By the way, "Sov. Gr. Commander" is the "President" or "Presiding Officer" of the Scottish Rite (a branch of Freemasonry) A fancy title, to be sure, but carries NO weight at all outside the Southern Jurisdiction.


3) 33 Degrees: Having read the writings of 33d degree Freemasons, I tend to agree. They all state clearly that the Blue Lodge has been misled by the White Lodge.


What is the "white" Lodge? I've NEVER heard this term. Must be something that I (a lowly 33rd Degree Mason) am too retarded to know about, huh?




4) Baphomet: Not me.


Me neither. He gets under my skin. He's always trying to get me to buy him another beer and wanting to borrow money from me for the juke box.

In other words, "HUH?"



5) Masons Control The World: How I got interested in Freemasonry: Check out the Warren Commision, the investigation into the JFK assassination. See how many 33d degree Freemasons were involved.


Why don't you tell us and save us the trouble of looking it up (since you've already found the data)



6) Masons Molest Children: Not me


A blatant lie. I am a Mason and I have NEVER molested a child (nor would I) Why would you say that when it isn't true?



7) Masons Practice Disinformation: Again, read the writings of 33d degree Freemasons. They all state clearly that the Blue Lodge has been misled by the White Lodge.


There you go with that "white" Lodge statement again. What exactly have you been deceived into thinking that is? And while I'm at it, what's with your fixation with 33rd Degree Masons? We put our pants on one leg at a time. In fact the only disinformation I practice is when I tell my daughter it's 6:45 when it's really 6:15 so she won't be late for school. (I think she's catching on to it though) You probably told on me, didn't you?




As such, I can only conclude that the anti-masons are part of one or more semi-organized campaigns against freemasonry.


Yep. They've only been around since the 1740's or so. Glad you caught on.



Having read the writings of 33d degree Freemasons, I can only conclude that Freemasonry is an organized campaign against humanity.


Aw shucks. You're on to us. "Brotherly Love, Relief and Truth" The three tenets of a Masons profession. Doesn't get any more inhumane than that does it?

In seriousness, give me a freakin' break. Can you not do any better than that?

My 10 year old knows more about Freemasonry than you obviously do. Why post such silliness? Is it to get more ATS points so you can buy an ATS cap with a propeller on top? [sheesh]

Thanks for the fun, though, but I have to go. I have some babies to eat, a few children to molest, then I need to go worship Lucifer for a while and plot my next move toward world domination.


(edit for spelling, it's been a long day)

[edit on 3-9-2006 by Appak]



posted on Sep, 3 2006 @ 08:56 PM
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Let me first address a few of your points:


Originally posted by xenu brings order
1) Anti-Christian: Not me, but I can see their point of view. It's one thing to say that all religions are equally valid in a Politically Correct place like the public schools or the workplace, but quite another ( for a Christian ) in a voluntary social setting.


But that's not what we teach... we don't say that all religions are equal. We say that religious beliefs are personal, and your business alone. But at the same time, we recognize that *faith* and *reverence* are virtues, that are not the sole commodity of any one belief.



Christians are required to believe that there is only one true religion; theirs.


And I'm sure that Christian Masons believe that. No part of masonry attempts to change that in any way.



Members of your organization write that all religions are subsets of the Ancient Wisdom, which belief is not acceptable to a true believer.


Some members of our organization may believe that... and again, that's cool.

I don't believe that... and I'm not required to. A Christian Mason would not have to share those beliefs, either.



5) Masons Control The World: How I got interested in Freemasonry: Check out the Warren Commision, the investigation into the JFK assassination. See how many 33d degree Freemasons were involved.


You mean how many '33rd degree Freemasons' someone has reported were involved.

I've heard 'evidence' that aliens, black ops agents, marines, and atlantians were the culprits behind the assassination. I'd think that an adult would be able to look at it all and realize that noone reporting this has a clue.



2) Albert Pike: When a guy who calls himself "Sovereign Grand Commander of the Supreme Council of the 33d degree" writes a book, people tend to believe that he knows whereof he writes.


The Supreme Council of the 33rd Degree only matters to the Scottish Rite, and only part of it at that. And as far as I understand, he's ancient history to them. The average mason has never heard of him.

Pike was a philosopher. There is an amount of personal fancy and opinion in what he writes.

Ok, so reading the rest of your points:



3) 33 Degrees: Having read the writings of 33d degree Freemasons, I tend to agree. They all state clearly that the Blue Lodge has been misled by the White Lodge.

7) Masons Practice Disinformation: Again, read the writings of 33d degree Freemasons. They all state clearly that the Blue Lodge has been misled by the White Lodge.


... it would seem that you believe that 33rd degree Scottish Rite Masons are deceiving other Masons. To what end, do you suspect?

And how do you logically get from that, to this:



Having read the writings of 33d degree Freemasons, I can only conclude that Freemasonry is an organized campaign against humanity.


I presume you are going to say "33rds are making lesser Masons do things to further their evil goals against humanity". I'm one of those Masons you'd consider 'lesser'. What are they making me do?



posted on Sep, 3 2006 @ 09:03 PM
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Originally posted by Appak
Me neither. He gets under my skin. He's always trying to get me to buy him another beer and wanting to borrow money from me for the juke box.


Seriously. And then he gets all "What do you mean it's my turn to buy? I'm an ultimate evil, I shouldn't have to..."

I mean, ahem...

Brother Appak, I suspect you may have mistaken some of my post for Xenu's.

Let's let him respond, before our organized effort attacks him... he's been kind enough to speak rationally about the topic (even if his information is a bit misguided), and I'd welcome a rational conversation at this point.



posted on Sep, 3 2006 @ 09:07 PM
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Originally posted by Hobbes
I presume you are going to say "33rds are making lesser Masons do things to further their evil goals against humanity". I'm one of those Masons you'd consider 'lesser'. What are they making me do?


Sorry for butting in Hobbes, but I've been giving that some thought and I believe I'll make you stand on your head, while wearing fish-net sockings, drink a glass of water, hum "The Star-Spangled Banner" while reciting "The Gettysburg Address" backwards in Swahili.

Sorry to do it to you Brother, but xenu has called my hand so to speak. However being a kind soul, I'll let you practice a while before I demand you do it publicly. I'm very tired tonight anyway.


Oh, the fun never stops.



posted on Sep, 3 2006 @ 09:10 PM
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Originally posted by Hobbes
Let's let him respond, before our organized effort attacks him...


You're right. He deserves a sporting chance. Besides Masons being kind to him will confuse him and make it easier for us to move in for the kill.




he's been kind enough to speak rationally about the topic (even if his information is a bit misguided), and I'd welcome a rational conversation at this point.


Me and you both. I wonder if there will ever be any?



posted on Sep, 3 2006 @ 09:15 PM
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This is what I see underneath the surface.

If we look underneath the criticisms people are making regarding Free Masonry, it tends to stem from a dislike of Commumism and I think this fear is often misdirected at times. We have to understand that this fear is nothing new. The anti-masons are usually made up of people who oppose all forms of collectivism. Collectivism being the majority claiming to speak for the minority with no checks and balances to prevent bullying. Collectivism being, the end goals justify the means (at any cost). Collectivism being, the greater good for the greater many but once more without any checks and balances to protect the minority from being bullied by the larger voting crowd. What could collectivism possibly have to do with Free Masonry?

I see people making the connection primarily through the notion of "Universal Brotherhood". I think accepting in a spiritual "Universal Brotherhood" is wonderful but many people do not, and I have noticed these are people who strongly oppose communism (in all it's forms) because they have no way of knowing if "universal brotherhood" is being used to forward communism in the slight of hand method. If this had not happened in the past, then may be the fear would be less prevalent.

I wish to bring up an example regarding Hitler, just to provide the extreme view of this fear. It is true that Hitler persecuted many Free Masons and also closed the lodges. Some have claimed this act was to prevent competition, others have claimed that this was done because Hitler was an anti-mason. But as he was a "Theosophist" and very interested in Ayrian roots (no matter how perverse) he was also a Lutheran and had up until a certain point, no problem with Free Masonry. I wish to mention that if I were to merely label Hitler as another Anti-Mason, it might be a shallow understanding. Hitler, was so very interested in Blavatsky's work and Blavatsky herself, spoke very highly of Free Mason - up to and including Albert Pike. Hitler accepted her form of "universal Brotherhood", yet he rejected Freemasonry in Germany at that time and gave up his membership to the lodge he was once a member to. Hitler claimed that the Catholic Church was permeated with Zionists and communist agitators.

Free Masonry was always open to the Jewish people in the past as a place to feel welcome, as you know the Jewish people were often treated poorly; particularly they were viewed with suspicion as being communist supporters because they hated the Zsars and many of the Jewish people in Germany at that time, were accused of selling out Germany to Britain by bringing America into WW1. Freemasonry tended to attract many Jewish people, as it was less intrusive and asked fewer questions regarding communism, while offering a safe haven for them. This may also explain, the claims of anti-masons, that they see a connection between zionism and freemasonry, being that many members are supporting "universal brotherhood" but in reality are 'communists' and just hard to tell part one or the other. Keep in mind, Hitler also removed many Jesuits from power, knowing full well the church would be furious. But the historical fact remains that Jesuits have indeed, been big promoters of Communism - and Hitler knew this. Ironically Hitler became a fascist which was something he claimed to hate. But anti-masons point to the fact that many of the biggest promoters of communism were always Freemasons and they see all the lodges (irregular or not) as one part under a similar body.

So, I think we need to look at the reasons why people become anti-masons in the first place. If there was no historical truth at all, and everything was simple falsehood as like in the lies which the Jesuit Leo Taxil promoted, then should today's Mason's accept that behind so much smoke and mirrors there can be found no fire (truth)?



posted on Sep, 3 2006 @ 09:47 PM
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Originally posted by Cinosamitna
I see people making the connection primarily through the notion of "Universal Brotherhood". I think accepting in a spiritual "Universal Brotherhood" is wonderful but many people do not, and I have noticed these are people who strongly oppose communism (in all it's forms) because they have no way of knowing if "universal brotherhood" is being used to forward communism in the slight of hand method. If this had not happened in the past, then may be the fear would be less prevalent.


Interesting. I can honestly say I've never looked at it that way. I've run into some religious folks that have been 'my way, or the highway' about their beliefs... but to look at that same phenomenon in politics is interesting... even if it is misled.



posted on Sep, 3 2006 @ 10:22 PM
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Cinosamitna: Well spoken. You've obviously given the subject some thought. I look forward to reading more of your insightful posts in future.



posted on Sep, 4 2006 @ 06:44 PM
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Let's start with

"Me neither. He gets under my skin. He's always trying to get me to buy him another beer and wanting to borrow money from me for the juke box.

In other words, "HUH?"

Not me means, I don't "make a few of the same basic arguments:" I do not make this particular argument. How hard can it be to figure that out?

"You mean how many '33rd degree Freemasons' someone has reported were involved."

You have no idea of what I mean.

I don't have my research material here; my job requires frequent and extended road trips. But, off the top of my head:

J. Edgar Hoover, FBI Director, director of the investigation
Earl Warren, head of the Warren Commission
Gerald Ford
2 more Freemasons among the six members of the commission
Arlen Spector, counsel to the commission.

"What is the "white" Lodge? I've NEVER heard this term. Must be something that I (a lowly 33rd Degree Mason) am too retarded to know about, huh?
"

Well, that would explain it. Again, I'm miles from my library, but C.W. Leadbeater and Foster Bailey both make frequent reference to the Blue Lodge, the Red lodge, and the White Lodge, which includes the 30th through 33d degrees.

'... it would seem that you believe that 33rd degree Scottish Rite Masons are deceiving other Masons. To what end, do you suspect?"

Ah. Read the works of Manly P. Hall and Foster Bailey. Both of these gents state that the work of the lodge is intended to bring about the Great Plan of the Ages, on behalf of the Spiritual Hierarchy, and Foster Bailey specifically mentions the New World Order, the Law of the Sea Treaty and the European Union as goals of the Spiritual Hierarchy. In The Spirit of Masonry, published in 1957.

"And how do you logically get from that, to this:

quote:
Having read the writings of 33d degree Freemasons, I can only conclude that Freemasonry is an organized campaign against humanity.

I presume you are going to say "33rds are making lesser Masons do things to further their evil goals against humanity". I'm one of those Masons you'd consider 'lesser'. What are they making me do?"

They're making you do your bit to further "The Great Plan of the Ages". Read the written words of 33d degree Freemasons, committed to paper by 33d degree Freemasons, and published for the whole world to see.

"quote:
6) Masons Molest Children: Not me

A blatant lie. I am a Mason and I have NEVER molested a child (nor would I) Why would you say that when it isn't true?"

Again: Not me means I don't make that claim. The original poster wrote "I've noticed that the regular anti-masonic posters in this forum ALL make a few of the same basic arguments:"

Not me. I don't make that argument. Apparently you can't follow a simple argument.



posted on Sep, 4 2006 @ 07:04 PM
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It is becoming so prevailant. (Did I spell that right? ) The Masons, spelling police, are watching this thread and looking for any idiosycroncy too make sport of any posts which might open ones eyes to the possible truth about their organization.

I have been following this "game" for several days now and it has become so apparant that it isn't even worth the mental aerobics involved. Anyone with any common sense can follow these threads which bring forth any claims about Masonry and it becomes a phone tree meeting between the regulars. You don't even use good arguments but instead put yourselves out their as victims of the "ignorant majority" which you have no problem calling your fellow ATS'ers. No one need not personally insult you, but your response to almost any post bringing in the word Mason is call for personal insults and obvious lies, ie; information used out of context to make the poster sound stupid. But I'm sure you can follow this with " We don't need to make you sound stupid, you're doing a fine job yourself" It has become so predictable that any intellegent discussion on ATS regarding the Masonic Brotherhood is virtually impossible. I know many of you have realized this and long ago stepped aside.

Oh, well..................

It's really a joke.



posted on Sep, 4 2006 @ 07:41 PM
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If you had truly been absorbing the information posted here on ATS, you would have realised that the Masons here have been trying to be as open and communicative about the structure, goals and tenets of our organisation, as humanly possible, for a long time now. Massive reams of information have been posted by guys like Masonic Light, in a struggle to educate people. He, and others more knowledgeable than I, have been quite selfless and dedicated in presenting this information, time and time again in incredible detail and from personal experience.

The fact that the truth is not as interesting as the unfounded fantasies that often get posted here is not our problem, nor is it (as you seem to think) any kind of indictment on us that we hold such fantasies in the same contempt as hoaxes like the Protocols of Zion.

Your only real accusation here seems to be that we get frustrated with rubbish, and sometimes respond in less-than-charitable ways towards those who (generally) accuse us of mass, organised paedophilia, attempted global enslavement of the human race, and consorting with evil aliens.

Yeah... you're right. It IS a joke, but not in the same vein of humour that you've perceived. If people want to pollute their minds with that garbage, that's their business, but don't have a stab at us for trying to deny ignorance.

Can you not see the ludicrousness in chastising Masons for their impudence in criticising people for bad spelling, in light of the accusations (see above) that WE face? It's like being told that one has bad table manners at a cannibal breakfast.

Feel free to go ahead, though, and champion the ill-educated fly-by-nighters who post that rubbish. They need all the help they can get. Any man or woman of sound mind should be able to discern the truth anyway.



posted on Sep, 4 2006 @ 08:59 PM
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Originally posted by xenu brings order
"Me neither. He gets under my skin. He's always trying to get me to buy him another beer and wanting to borrow money from me for the juke box.

In other words, "HUH?"


It was a joke about Baphomet. And before you jump on it... it was JUST a joke. There is nothing called Baphomet in masonry.



Not me means, I don't "make a few of the same basic arguments:" I do not make this particular argument. How hard can it be to figure that out?


As I said, I think Appak mistook some of my comments for yours. It happens on occasion, when working through a post in the plain-text editor... everything looks alike.



You have no idea of what I mean.


Yes, actually we do. We mean that someone *claims* that certain men were 33rd degree masons, and that they were involved in the JFK assassination. That claim does not, of it's own merit, make itself true.



J. Edgar Hoover, FBI Director, director of the investigation


No offense, but DUH... the man was the Director of the *Federal Bureau of Investigation*. Who else would you expect to be called in for the investigation into a presidential murder?



Well, that would explain it. Again, I'm miles from my library, but C.W. Leadbeater and Foster Bailey both make frequent reference to the Blue Lodge, the Red lodge, and the White Lodge, which includes the 30th through 33d degrees.


It would seem suspicious to me that members of the '30th through 33rd degrees' have not heard the term.



Ah. Read the works of Manly P. Hall and Foster Bailey.


No. I asked YOU how YOU think the 'lesser masons' are being deceived. I want to hear YOUR take on things.

If we are being deceived, writing about it in a book would... be the opposite of deception, would it not?

I'm looking for something practical... like for instance, "Lesser Masons are instructed to hold barbecues; but what they don't know is that every time they take a bite, a small part of their soul is trapped in a giant hidden soul collector." Or, "The money they donate doesn't go to charity, it goes to a black ops slush fund." Be prepared to back up your words.



They're making you do your bit to further "The Great Plan of the Ages". Read the written words of 33d degree Freemasons, committed to paper by 33d degree Freemasons, and published for the whole world to see.


Again, what is 'our part'?

This 'Great Plan of the Ages' = Evil argument is a pretty big assumption... back it up, please.

And as I said, please tell me about 'our part'.



posted on Sep, 4 2006 @ 11:54 PM
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I think masons secretly thrive on all the anti-masonry conspiracy theory hype because it makes their club seem more interesting. Granted, they probably do not find it flaterring when they are labelled as pedophiles or murderers, but the mystique that surrounds their organisation must make them just swell up a tiny bit with pride. Sometimes I think masons are the ones spreading the rumors about conspiracy theories because it is a great recruiting tool!



posted on Sep, 5 2006 @ 01:48 AM
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Interesting point, which may be true to some degree. I mean, human beings in general love to think that they're privy to secret information or special status. I'm sure there are some in Freemasonry who relish their membership in this manner.

For myself, well, I love a good debate, but I find most of the critiques of Freemasonry here are either pretty silly (eg: that we are footsoldiers of the NWO) or silly AND offensive (eg: organised padeophilia). Debates about the religious aspects can be somewhat engaging, but most of the time they descend into the usual "Freemasons worships Lucifer" garbage.



posted on Sep, 5 2006 @ 08:00 AM
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Originally posted by xenu brings order


J. Edgar Hoover, FBI Director, director of the investigation
Earl Warren, head of the Warren Commission
Gerald Ford
2 more Freemasons among the six members of the commission
Arlen Spector, counsel to the commission.


Just for the record, Arlen Spector is not a Mason, although the others mentioned were.



Well, that would explain it. Again, I'm miles from my library, but C.W. Leadbeater and Foster Bailey both make frequent reference to the Blue Lodge, the Red lodge, and the White Lodge, which includes the 30th through 33d degrees.


C.W. Leadbetter was never a regular Mason. He belonged to an irregular Lodge which admitted both men and women.

Also just for the record, Appak is a 33° Scottish Rite Mason, and I am a 32° Scottish Rite Mason. We do not claim that Master Masons are misled.

Pike believed, and wrote, that those of the Blue Degrees were "intentionally misled" by false interpretation of the symbols. However, it seems that it was Bro. Pike who was misled: Pike's theory that Masonry descended from Templarism, which was what he thought Blue Lodge Masons were being "misled" about, has since been disproven.



Ah. Read the works of Manly P. Hall and Foster Bailey. Both of these gents state that the work of the lodge is intended to bring about the Great Plan of the Ages, on behalf of the Spiritual Hierarchy, and Foster Bailey specifically mentions the New World Order, the Law of the Sea Treaty and the European Union as goals of the Spiritual Hierarchy. In The Spirit of Masonry, published in 1957.


I've read them. Most of Hall's books were written before he even became a Mason. Indeed, in the 1976 reprint of "Lost Keys of Freemasonry", he mentions that at the time he wrote it, he was a young college student whose only exposure to Freemasonry was reading books in his school library by folks like, well, C.W. Leadbetter.

As for Foster, he's generally considered a nut (he was not a 33° Mason, although he was a regular Mason). It is believed that most of his books were ghostwritten by his wife Alice, who was also a nut.



posted on Sep, 5 2006 @ 12:54 PM
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im glad for you hobbes!



posted on Sep, 6 2006 @ 08:21 PM
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I don't think anyone said there was something called Baphomet in Masonry. I believe Eliphas Levi wrote a paper describing Baphomet as the goat headed deity who may represent Sophia or something like that whose symbolism was used in reference of the Knights Templar.



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