Mixing water in your gasoline?!?

Most cars run on two regimes.

The Stoichometric regime is used when during no-load or low load conditions such as idling or just maintaining moderate speeds on level ground. This means that the enough air is burned together with the fuel to completely oxidize the fuel. This is as good as it gets, and you don't want to mess with this regime. This is why you save huge amounts of gas by being as light as possible on the pedal.

In the second regime, your computer is dumping extra fuel into the mix, fuel that will not burn until it reaches the catalytic convertor. It does this to prevent overheating in the engine during times when lots of power is being produced. Adding water instead of unburnt gas to this second regime makes a great deal of sense because water is cheaper than gas, plus a small amount of water cools the engine better And the water takes heat that would also represent wasted enery and expandes it into steam, thus increasing engine power while reducing fuel.

Before you get all hot and bothered about water in your engine it is instructive to recall that water is the biggest byproduct of gasoline combustion anyway! However, I think, probably, an easier approach is to spray it into the air-intake (inside the filter!) This should kick in only when you are starting to press more than a little on the gas pedal.

If this can be made to work, one could use more cheaply produced alcohol that still had considerable water in it!!! According to the SAE web site, cheaper, less refined gasoline can also be used since water acts as though it is increasing the octane rating of the fuel, to prevent knocking.

The anti-knocking properties of water also mean that it is likely to permit running super-lean air mixtures without detonation problems. In that event, some water might be desirable if instead of running in Stoichometric Regime one were able to run very lean, that is with a considerable excess of air. Under this scenario, schemes that better vaporize the fuel might bear considerably more improvement than they have without water injection.

The big difficulty I see is just figuring out how to hack my car's computer or, alternatively, figure out how to run my car off an old PDA (personal digital assistant) in place of the manufacturer's computer. For expermentation, a laptop would work just as well!

Wm. Scott Smith
scott 712 "at" hotmail dot com (to beat the Spambots!)

reply to post by Anonymous ATS

I think an easier approach is to spray it [water] into the air-intake (inside the filter!) This should kick in only when you are starting to press more than a little on the gas pedal. If this can be made to work, one could use more cheaply produced alcohol that still had considerable water in it!

During World War Two the US used comparatively lighter air cooled radial engines in most of its warplanes. Only the P38, P39, P40 and P51 (fastest) used the much heavier water cooled engines. See Note 1. The Navy's outstanding Grumman F6F Hellcat and the Vought F4u Corsair both employed the P&W R2800 radial engines. The first George Bush was flying the 3 man crew Grumman TBF Avenger powered by a P&W R2800 off a carrier deck when he was shot down.

Those engines featured a WAR EMERGENCY POWER setting on the throttle. In the case of the R2800, a 10 gallon water tank was located next to the engine. When the throttle was slammed PAST the 100% power setting, the water injection kicked in and gave a substantial boost in power and speed lasting between 5 and 10 minutes.

This power setting was to be used only in a life and death emergency. Major overhaul of engines was scheduled for every 500 hours of service. But using the WEP setting for water injection was so extreme on the engine it had to be torn down on the plane's return to its base.

SUMMARY. We know water does not burn. The function water injection serves is to cool the mixture to make it more dense - packing in more fuel charge per revolution - and to cool the exhaust valve primarily but the same cooling effect would benefit the whole cylinder and the engine. Alert: Maintaining cylinder head temp and exhaust temp in a safe operating range are the two critical temperatures in aluminum air cooled engines. Exceed either and you will not be forgiven!

The big difficulty I see is just figuring out how to hack my car's computer or, alternatively, figure out how to run my car off an old PDA (personal digital assistant) in place of the manufacturer's computer. For experimentation, a laptop would work just as well! Wm. Scott Smith: scott 712 "at" hotmail dot com

Before the auto industry’s progression to fuel injection for each cylinder - MPI - multi-port injection - as opposed to the earlier TBI - throttle body injector - many after-market sources like J C Whitney offered water injection kits to fit any internal combustion engine. Some (cheaper versions) ran continuously, others were vacuum operated (when using maximum engine power). Cool the incoming mixture and you get more fuel in the combustion chamber which equals more power at the crankshaft. The amount of water added is self-limiting. Add too much water and the engine dies!

CONCLUSION. Mostly because there has been so much work done by very well financed engineers, it is my opinion that adding water injection to an engine is not worth the cost. If any of the now extinct car companies could have found some way to raise the power of their products over their competitors, I’m sure they would have done it. Studebaker, Packard, Hudson, Nash, American Motors, Kaiser, Willys and now Chrysler and maybe Ford and gulp! even GM are at risk! If water injection was cost effective we’d have it now.


Note 1. GM’s Allison Division made a V12 of 1710 cu in displacement. (Later enlarged to 1740 cu in). The similar Rolls Royce Merlin V12 of 1649 cu in displacement proved the better of the two engines and powered the P51. That engine was made in the US under license by Packard. Note: US Patrol Torpedo boats - PT - used 3 of these engines to gain 50 mph on water top speed. JFK lost his PT109 when it was rammed by a Japanese destroyer.

“Aircraft of the 8th Air Force were running on 100/150 grade by the second week of June 1944; problems continued to be experienced with [tetra ethyl lead] fouled spark-plugs and a new blend of fuel called P.E.P, using Ethylene dibromide to counter this, was introduced in early 1945. In March 1945 use of the PEP fuel was discontinued and 8th AF units reverted back to using the standard 100/150 grade. The 100/150 grade fuel could be recognized by its bright green color and the ‘awful smell.’ " en.wikipedia.org...

[edit on 8/17/2008 by donwhite]

There's this guy that's trying to run his dodge on water. I don't know if you have seen its blog before but just in case I'll put the link: blog.waterforfuel.com...

He explains quite thoroughly his thoughts on water powered engines and his progress so far.

I don't know much about cars so I can't say whether it's BS or not, so check it out!

reply to post by seb2882

There's this guy that's trying to run his dodge on water. I don't know if you have seen its blog before but just in case I'll put the link: He explains quite thoroughly his thoughts on water powered engines and his progress so far. I don't know much about cars so I can't say whether it's BS or not, so check it out!

I went to his blog. Actually, it is a HYDROGEN car. Water is the source of the hydrogen that powers or fuels the internal combustion engine. The electrical circuitry is meant to show how to use a 12 volt battery source to break down the water into its components, hydrogen (2 parts) and oxygen (1 part). H2O.

The real problem in any hydrogen powered car (or truck) is the need to carry a lot of hydrogen onboard. At room temp it is a gas. Recall the Hindenburg airship? See below. This means a good sized fuel tank - 20 or 30 gallons - to be filled with liquid hydrogen - super cold at around minus 300 deg F. - and under great pressure - often 3,000 psi. Hydrogen is one of the lightest if not the lightest element. It being Number 1 on the Periodic Table. Oxygen is No. 6. Which means an oxygen atom is roughly 6 X as heavy as a hydrogen atom.

The hydrogen as a fuel problem is 1) compressing the hydrogen gas; 2) storing the super cold liquid hydrogen; and 3) transferring the hydrogen from the big storage tank into the motor vehicle’s little fuel tank. When we learn how to do all this for less than $4 a gallon of gasoline then we will see hydrogen as an alternative fuel. In the meantime, the man is faking it.

To see the Hindenburg airship, go to en.wikipedia.org...

[edit on 8/17/2008 by donwhite]

I'd think that this would simply dilute your gas.

Right there in the first post... alcohol and water. The alcohol will mix with the water and keep it in a state that the engine can burn (very efficiently in some cases). That is why alcohol is used for gas-line antifreeze. A good water-alcohol mix can make a great fuel for combustion engines, because of the extra expansion gained by the extra absorption of heat from combustion. Why do you think home distillation is illegal?

"Although home distillation of ethanol for commercial purposes is still illegal in the United States, legislation was introduced, but failed to pass[23] in November 2001 to legalize home distillation in much the same way as home brewing of wine and beer were legalized in 1978. As early as prohibition, there have been stories of moonshiners using their product as a powerful fuel in their automobiles, usually when evading law-enforcement agencies while delivering their illegal product. The sport of "stock car" racing got its start when moonshiners would modify their automobiles to outrun federal government revenue agents.
en.wikipedia.org...

I had a water intercooler button on my Subaru WRX STI.

It shot water into the turbo when i pressed the button increasing the power of the vehicle.

In basic term's i beleive the water hit the turbo evaporated creating a pocket of much more dense air that was then forced thru the turbo.

Ever notice how your car run's better and much faster on a cold misty morning ?

Now if you placed water in your gasoline tank there would be obvious problem's.

Mine was stored in the boot in a reservoir and it was passed to the turbo when you pressed the button thru a special network of pipe's.







Sorry i could not resist muhahahahaha.

Take care.

Regards
Lee






[edit on 18-8-2008 by h3akalee]

A if you add water into you piston chambers, the water mixes with the oil and somehow during the process of running wares your pistons down.

Not to change the subject but Browns gas or HHO works great, my home made one sadly is still ghetto and requires maintenance every few days or so.

The gas advance system separates the water into Hydrogen and Oxygen using electricity from the battery system of the car. These 2 gasses are then fed into the air intake to greatly increase the explosive force of combustion. This is not fantasy. Many are looking for a way to run a car on Hydrogen as a compressed gas. The problem is if the car were in an accident, the explosion would clear a city block. The Gas Advance System uses water as its "compressed" gas and happens to be totally inert in a collision. Amazingly, 4 cylinder engines have shown 100 mpg using the system. Larger engines show and increase of 50 to 70 % in mpg. Just installing these systems on every car would remove our demand for foreign oil in no time. The big bonuses are increased car life and dramatic emissions reductions.

reply to post by Anonymous ATS

The gas advance system separates the water into Hydrogen and Oxygen using electricity from the battery system of the car. These 2 gasses are then fed into the air intake to greatly increase the explosive force of combustion.

I dispute that the small quantity of hydrogen and oxygen a 12 v. battery could produce would even be noticeable if inducted into the air intake system.

Consider: A car goes 60 mph for one hour. The car delivers 20 mpg. Therefore it consumes 3 gallons of gasoline. Gasoline has about 35,000 btu per gallon. The car has consumed about 100,000 btu to move 60 miles. I recall a 9th grade science class where we used a large 1.5 v. drycell to make hydrogen and oxygen from water, but it took half the class period to make enough gas to equal a small firecracker. I do not see a 12 v. battery doing that much better. YES, a car can run on hydrogen, but NO, not on the amount a 12 v. battery can make.

Amazingly, 4 cylinder engines have shown 100 mpg using the system. Larger engines show and increase of 50 to 70 % in mpg. Just installing these systems on every car would remove our demand for foreign oil in no time. The big bonuses are increased car life and dramatic emissions reductions.

But the down side to this happy scenario is that it is pure bunkum, pure imagination. It is not real life. It is the stuff frauds are made of. I guarantee you the claims are NOT true.

reply to post by Earthscum


By the way. Use Google search engine.

About the thread. Could you turn a v8 engine-car into a v2 rocket? V2 rockets were the first types to be used like that, with water and gas...

Just remember any residual water in a fuel line can be bad in colder climates.

It's quite common where I'm at during the winter a little water gets mixed with fuel then sits in the fuel line. Then turns to ice and you can't start the car/truck because of the ice blocking the fuel line. If you push the vehicle it sometimes dislodges the ice and you can then start it.

Water is just a bad thing in the winter when your looking at temperatures below zero on an extended basis. Hence the reason every winter we have to screw with the radiator mixtures to ensure it can withstand up to usually 60 below 0.

Try changing the water into seperated elements first...then you got something that does work. I know, I have one in my 86 305 carbureted camaro that used to get 14mpg, now it gets over 26mpg...city.

Water4Gas

Commonly known as "Brown's Gas" and was used in internal combustion engines before gasoline was even invented.

Cheers!!!!

A good way to destroy a gas motor is to put water in the tank,inter coolers only cool the fuel off being a turbo charger runs hot,no water is mixed in fuel

reply to post by Darthorious

It's quite common where I'm at during the winter a little water gets mixed with fuel then sits in the fuel line. Then turns to ice and you can't start the car/truck because of the ice blocking the fuel line. If you push the vehicle it sometimes dislodges the ice and you can then start it.

Alcohol has an affinity for water. Rubbing alcohol as sold in pint containers is ideal for REMOVING water from our fuel system.

CAUTION: Be sure to buy the 91% version. The other 9% is water. In the cheaper and more commonly available 70% version, 30% is WATER. That's like pouring 4 oz of water into your tank with the alcohol. The 91% OTOH is only like pouring 1 oz of water into your tank leaving 15 oz to do its work.

Regular engines cannot run with water added to the system for very long without creating excessive wear.

Ever heard of something called RUST?

Ceramic liners and manifolds could cope but how many cars are fitted with these expensive parts as standard?

You're better off "chilling" the air/fuel mixture to provide a bigger "bang"!

Gunnerman possibly felt the pot of gold lay with water and continued to pursue the idea that the water might still be a saleable concept. His next company was A-55, which created a water and petroleum mixture. Gunnerman appeared with his new concept on CNN, on October 19, 1992 with reporter Don Knapp. He mixed water, gasoline and a surfactant together and demonstrated the mixture in a Porsche 944. He claimed it was just as powerful and efficient as gasoline and also fire safe. He even went so far to say he could essentially double a car’s gasoline mileage while cutting pollution 90 percent. He also claimed to be getting calls from oil companies all over the world about his invention. Gunnerman said he wasn’t really sure what’s going on in the engine chemically, but "it’s not hocus-pocus or fraud, snake oil or whatever you call it." Funny he should mention fraud, as that is the exact term that one of those oil companies used to describe his dealing with them.

Rudolf Gunnerman - Water Fuel
Rudolf Gunnerman invented water fuels.

By Mary Bellis, About.com
Beginning in 1987, Rudolf Gunnerman researched and developed water-based fuels. Gunnerman invented a emulsifier additive that allowed for the creation of fuel mixtures of alcohol and water, gasoline and water, diesel fuel and water, and water and naphtha.

Rudolf Gunnerman trademarked his fuels under the name of A-55 Clean Fuels.
Rudolf Gunnerman
Rudolf Gunnerman is the founder, chairman, and CEO of SulphCo, Inc., a trustee of the DRI Research Foundation, and sponsor of the $25,000 Gunnerman Silver State Award for Excellence in Science and Technology. Rudolf Gunnerman has also received the Albert Einstein Gold Medal of Honor for the Advancement of Science and Technology.

According to SulphCo, Inc's Corporate Bio:
Dr. Rudolf Gunnerman, the Company's Chief Executive Officer, Chairman of the Board and Director, is a 77-year-old inventor and entrepreneur who has devoted his life to developing products to help the environment and mankind. After studying mathematics and physics in Germany, he immigrated to the United States. Dr. Gunnerman has invented a series of successful technologies, including fireproof building materials and wood pellets. Thereafter, in his quest to reduce nitrous oxide, a major source of ozone depletion, Dr. Gunnerman invented A-55 Clean Fuels. Dr. Gunnerman holds three honorary doctorate degrees.

I remembered that CNN had this guy with a Porsche demonstrating basically double the mileage with a special water-gasoline mixture. The emulsifier was key to getting the process to work. As I remember CNN, it was said that this process produced steam while burning the gasoline hence compensating for what would have been any energy losses.

At last I found it, but no video yet.



[edit on 10-11-2008 by SkipShipman]

There were a bunch of cars ruined by water in the gas.
Recently on the New Jersey Turnpike.
Now did the supplier think that an additive would allow the mixing.
And was not aware all the water came already mixed in for
years now from the producers.
I heard there is a patent or process that was used in the 50s that
allowed one or two gallons of water to be mixed in to a tank of gas.
The one gas producer finally became all the producers.
This would lower the vapor point and eliminate use of the
vapor carburetors.
The additive gave a purple color to spilled gas which I thought
was caused by light refraction. Perhaps the is a color change but
I haven't seen spilled gas since the 50s.
Except for the event in New Jersey, the rest is from conversations
with Bill Lyne.

Another super gas waster is the emission controls instead of
efficient gas carburation. Also a super classic Illuminati stunt.
Up there with digital broadcast and trolly car comdemnation.
The Governor of California had his state the first to enact clean air
laws so the converter could use his patent. I recall this event but
conversations with Bill sort of refreshed this gem.

Decreasing the energy we use at the same price is one way
for the Illuminati to survive. The carbon tax is another way
to get money and avoid making Tesla technology that might might
make 20 year replaceable engines possible too wide spread.
And according to design might make fuel requirements too
infrequent.

reply to post by SkipShipman

Rudolf Gunnerman is the founder, chairman, and CEO of SulphCo, Inc., a trustee of the DRI Research Foundation, and sponsor of the $25,000 Gunnerman Silver State Award for Excellence in Science and Technology. Rudolf Gunnerman has also received the Albert Einstein Gold Medal of Honor for the Advancement of Science and Technology.
inventors.about.com...

This is a NON existent award and another fraudulent claim by Gunnerman: The Albert Einstein Gold Medal of Honor for the Advancement of Science and Technology.
en.wikipedia.org...


[edit on 11/10/2008 by donwhite]

Originally posted by Anonymous ATS
The gas advance system separates the water into Hydrogen and Oxygen using electricity from the battery system of the car. These 2 gasses are then fed into the air intake to greatly increase the explosive force of combustion. This is not fantasy. Many are looking for a way to run a car on Hydrogen as a compressed gas. The problem is if the car were in an accident, the explosion would clear a city block. The Gas Advance System uses water as its "compressed" gas and happens to be totally inert in a collision. Amazingly, 4 cylinder engines have shown 100 mpg using the system. Larger engines show and increase of 50 to 70 % in mpg. Just installing these systems on every car would remove our demand for foreign oil in no time. The big bonuses are increased car life and dramatic emissions reductions.

Wow. WW3? If what Anonymous saying is true, about "The problem is if the car were in an accident, the explosion would clear a city block." Then I could see it as WW3? Gas explosion + Hydrogen explosion = ...I do not really know, but what it does seem to be is more of a case that EVERYBODY should be alarmed at it. Just hope that Russia and China would use them, so in that way USA wouldn't need to worry about them no more...