"Mystery Projectile" Penetrates M1A1

And the hole in the flak jacket is large and non-bullet or 'round' shaped..

(Bullets and round really make wery small visible holes..)

And this does support my theory of HEAT round attack that caused some pieces of the tanks own armor to be blown off..

As it seems that the flak vest and the crew member had been hit by large piece of flying metal..

Metal that had teared off the tanks own armor after (during..) non-penetrating HEAT round HIT!

John.....
"Why do you make a big deal out of this seeker?
M1 series isnt 'bulletproof' it can be blow up as easily as any T-72......"


The issue here was not the vulnerability nor the invulnerability of the M1A1......
The issue discussed was:
What was the "Mystery Projectile" that hit and penetrated the M1A1?

The armor used by the M1 is 25 years old, roughly, and the penetrating of the tanks skirting is almost moot and only says that the skirting armor needs to be better, such as is on the Warrior or Challenger.....

Appreciate the imput.


regards
seekerof

That SKIRTS only function is to blow up HEAT rounds before these hit the HULL?

*edit*

TO REDUCE THE AMMOUNT OF THE DAMAGE, NOT TO PREVENT IT TOTALLY.

*end of edit*



Has been so since 1940s is still so in 2003..



But like i said:

I seriously think that non-penetrating HEAT round is to blame..

It is only a 'mystery' cause US ARMY has forgotten how the HESH 'effect' works..?

Cause US Army hasnt been a 'fan' of the HESH rounds..

I am not even sure that has the US Army ever used those..

Correct me if i am wrong..

But i think i am not..



[Edited on 1-11-2003 by FULCRUM]

Very well be the case John....HESH may have been over-looked.

I had mentioned before that I was a little mystified that none of the photos show the inside armor of the M1A1...normally a kevlar screen is up to prevent spall or fragmentations..... That may be the missing 'link' to finding out if HESH was involved....maybe?


regards
seekerof

It isnt a HESH round cause it has still the hole in the side-skirt!

Hole from a HEAT round!



It was/is non-penetrating HEAT round that made same kind of effect after hitting and penetrating the skirt..

Cause after the penetration of the SKIRT the 'Fire jet' flew trough some air.. (from the skirt to hull) and then impacted on the hull and remaining 'kick' of that 'Fire jet' (explosion) of the HEAT round had left caused a HESH impact like SHOCK WAVE that teared off some of the inner armor and injured the crew member!

What type HEAT round/munition/projectile and from "what"?

regards
seekerof

Originally posted by Seekerof
What type HEAT round/munition/projectile and from "what"?

regards
seekerof

Just about any type of HEAT round could have been used..

From RPG-7/RPG-7V or From those 73mm Recoiles gun that Iraqis had or from T-12 100mm anti-tank gun..

OR

Any Iraqi tank FIRING HEAT ROUND FROM THE CANNON.
(73mm, 100mm, 115mm or 125mm..)

(HEAT - HIGH EXPLOSIVE ANTI TANK)

Fulcrum,
According to the article:
"Experts believe whatever it is that knocked out the tank in August was not an RPG-7 but most likely something new � and that worries tank drivers......In the sort of excited language seldom included in official Army documents, he said, �The unit is very anxious to have this �SOMETHING� identified. It seems clear that a penetrator of a yellow molten metal is what caused the damage, but what weapon fires such a round and precisely what sort of round is it? The bad guys are using something unknown and the guys facing it want very much to know what it is and how they can defend themselves.�........�It�s a real strange impact,� said a source who has worked both as a tank designer and as an anti-tank weapons engineer. �This is a new one. � It almost definitely is a hollow-charge warhead of some sort, but probably not an RPG-7� anti-tank rocket-propelled grenade.....At this time, it appears most likely that an RPG-22 or some other improved variant of the Russian-designed weapon damaged the M1 tank, sources concluded. The damage certainly was caused by some sort of shaped-charge or hollow-charge warhead, and the cohesive nature of the destructive jet suggests a more effective weapon than a fragmented-jet RPG-7."


Still think it was a HEAT round? I'm and have been having serious doubts on that. I wanted to hear what you thought it was without contesting it and I do appreciate your thoughts and information John.
I still think it was a new weapons muntions but I'm still hanging on an improved type SABOT round or SABOT sheathed round/munition.
The M1 type MBT's have reactive armor plates. This implies that the armor itself explodes outward destroying the force of the shaped charge. IMHO, what hit this tank sounds to me like a SABOT-type round/munition with enough force to punch a hole in the tank.

'Something' Felled an M1A1 Abrams Tank in Iraq - But What?
author: John Roos

"As it passed through the interior, it hit enough critical components to knock the tank out of action. That made it one of only two Abrams disabled by enemy fire during the Iraq war and one of only a handful of "mobility kills" since they first rumbled onto the scene 20 years ago. Experts believe whatever it is that knocked out the Abrams in August was not an RPG-7 but most likely something new - and that worries tank drivers."


regards
seekerof

Ok guys, I don't know squat about tanks, cannon size or bullets. But I do know the periodic table of elements. And I'd say your best clue is this:

"It seems clear that a penetrator of a yellow molten metal is what caused the damage"

What metal is typically used in rounds these days?

What about a palladium/rhodium alloy?

www.webelements.com...

I had to look this up then cross-reference it for accuracy:
The APFSDS or Armour Piercing Fin Stabilised Discarding Sabot is made up of:

"The materials used in APFSDS are heavymetal (Wolfram-Carbide for example) and DU (Depleted Uranium). DU is what remains when you enrich the radioactive isotope in natural uranium (atom number 92, U 92). Steel can also be found as penetratormaterial, mainly in former Warzaw pact countries. The reasons for DU and heavymetal being used in penetrators is that those materials have a very high density and a good tencity which are qualities needed during the penetratoracceleration, in-flight time and at the actual penetration (inner-, outer- and final- ballistics).

Heavymetal has Wolfram (atomnumber 74, W 74) as its prime constituent. The density can vary between 17000 and 18500 kg/m3. The tencity usually decreases with increasing density.

DU as penetratormaterial is often uranium alloyed with 0.75% titanium (atomnumber 22, Ti 22). The density is around 18500 kg/m3.

Penetrators is made outer-ballistically stable by attaching fins. These fins are made out of aluminium."


The SABOT is mafe up of:

"The sabots is usually made out of high tencity aluminium and is designed so that they separate from the penetrator when it leaves the muzzle. this is achieved by spliting the sabot alongside the penetrator in three parts. The segments is held together by a plasticbinding that breaks by the forces induced by the air and rotational forces at the muzzlepassage."


The Case and Base are made of:

"The case is often made out of metal but also combustible casings like on the Leopard II are being used. This decreases the weight and can increase the rate of fire."

Article:
"Armour Piercing Fin Stabilised Discarding Sabot"
Link:
home.swipnet.se...


regards
seekerof

Hmm.. so the question is, what color is DU when in molten form?

are you refering to magnetic rail guns(gauss rifles)?
and did someone also mention the use of sound as a force?...

Like you said it:

"The damage certainly was caused by some sort of shaped-charge or hollow-charge warhead."
(THIS IS HEAT ROUND!!!)

I was right.

And:

RPG-7 series has plenty of different kinds of HEAT (SHAPED-CHARGE..) warheads..
(From the 1950/60s variants to versions of 2003!!!..)

Some old.. some NEW AND VERY, VERY EFFECTIVE.
(AS EFFECTIVE THAN THOSE FOR LETS SAY B-300!!!)

RPG-7 has also FAE or Thermite warheads.. to addition of the regular HE and HEAT..

kukla.......
I will see what I can dig up on that question of "what does DU look like in a molten state"....


John/Fulcrum....
The experts have remained 'secretive' on this but the article pretty well says that they doubt that it was a RPG-7, per se'. Again........I do not believe it was a HEAT round...a HEAT round has 'explosive' attributes, a SABOT round does not....it is a penetrator....
I understand your reasoning but if "experts" can determine the opposite, per se', of what you are saying and still conclude that the case is still "undetermined", thus the "concern".....that basically says what:

1) they know but won't say?
2) they don't know and are "stupid" to the fact that it was a RPG-7, etc.?
3) that they have ruled out RPG-7 despite others continung to believe otherwise?

Despite all this.......in all my further searchings on this, the case, according to military experts and metal experts, is that it is still "undefined" and still a "mystery".......still a "mystery projectile"......

I will try to stay on this and search...
Thanks for the imput thus far everyone.


regards
seekerof

[Edited on 2-11-2003 by Seekerof]

This could be a high energy weapon such as a laser or microwave gun. What kind of high energy weapon would be able to pierce metal? It might also just be DU shells, or a tank crew with an oxyacetaline torch that wanted attention.

i've just been able to glimpse some of the info about this...what r the circustances of the hit...where was the tank...hard to believe the rag heads could knock it out....funny how there was very little press about this...hmmmmmm

BURNS HOLE TO THE TANKS ARMOR BY DIRECTING A JET OF MOLTED METAL TO IT!!!!

It is not your average explosion.



It was just a regular HEAT ROUND.

It dosnt much matter by what it was fired.

The effect is still the same..

The effect of non-penetrating HEAT HIT!

(THAT DID NOT PENETRATE THE HULL! BUT AS YOU CAN SEE IT DID PENETRATE THE SKIRT, BUT THE SKIRT MADE IT JOB AND PREVENTED THE HEAT ROUND FROM PENETRATING THE HULL!)



There is nothing special to this.



LINK!

A copper shaped charge liner and wave shaper are contained within the warhead.

!!!

This copper melts during the explosion and forms the JET THAT CUT TROUGH THE ARMOR!!!



THE COPPER 'LINER'!!!



[Edited on 3-11-2003 by FULCRUM]

thanks fulc..i'm too busy working 2 jobs to do much else...other than read posts on ats.....do u think we hit our own tank?? if i recall correctly .. germany, french and britian use large 120 rounds.....anything smaller would have to be right on top of the tank....

About 15 years ago, Russia developed tandem-warhead anti-tank-grenades designed to defeat reactive armor. This new round, called a PG-7VR, can be fired from an RPG-7V launcher and might have left the unusual signature on the tank.

Russia has also developed the RPG-22. This is believed to have been used against American forces in Afghanistan. U.S. troops have apparently seized some that have been returned to the United States for testing, little details about their effects and �fingerprints� are available.

Yet another possibility is a retrofitted warhead for the RPG system being developed by a Swiss manufacturer.

At this time according to unclassified DoD sources, it appears most likely that an RPG-22 or some other improved variant of the Russian-designed weapon damaged the M1 tank...

intelgurl


[Edited on 2-11-2003 by intelgurl]

intelgwl..any links???