Did any else notice?

I'll admit that the EU hasn't taken away any real sovreignty as of yet. They CAN dictate law that takes precedence over parliament AND our own judiciary system, but yes, this is balanced by parliaments abiliity to withdraw from the European Union. Just look at how the union has progressed. Firstly Steel, farming, free trade, open market, then quickly into legislation.....social charter....human rights.....enviromental......workplace, business red tape.....unelected council of ministers, corruption etc etc. Where will it stop? It honestly won't. Thats a massive growth in a very short amount of time, without fair debate, without education.

Currently the system is undemocratic. No sane person who is against the EU thinks we are superior to everyone. Our country is a mess atm. As mentioned by Spymaster; our kids can't speak english, can't read or write, lack numeracy skills, show utter contempt for civic pride. Alcoholism and Drug use is on the rise, Crime is going through the roof. There IS incredible ignorance and apathy for everything civic, sensible and constructive, this is still no reason to dump everything we've built on. The EU won't solve it. You made a very good point infinite, we are unique countries with different histories and tradition, thus pooling sovreignty is useless. The EU is a talking shop, that is unelected, we can't agree on a budget, and the CAP is a scandal.

The only real cultural co-operation i see, isn't the work of the EU, its called globalisation. We can be global, we can look outward. If we want to look out globally to every country on earth: We do not draw boundaries, group together with a select group of people (wealthy, developed), combine our millitary, implement trade barriers against third world countries, protect our industries with dubious morality, waste piles of food to keep our agricultural industries afloat, fix prices- and then somehow claim we are being sensible, liberal, fair, tolerant and peace loving. The EU turns its back on the world, heck some folk were against Turkey joining for being a muslim nation! (even when its secular).

Many in Europe will tell you that they hate the euro (currency). The only real advantage being ease of use. When was the last time we pooled economic sovreignty, our economy suffered its worst crisis in the modern age.

If we keep going in this direction at such a strong pace, we will regret it. There has been no thought or consideration.

Blair said it himself, its not what Britain can do for Europe, its what europe can do for us. He knows we are a dwindling power. The EU will maintain the power and standing that we have left, particularly against the emerging powers of China, India, Mexico, Brazil etc

Unelected? are you refering to the European council or Parliament? (which is elected by the people of Europe).

but with America slowly starting to decline now, its only a matter of time before Europe comes together as one. But while our economy remains in a strong holding, there is no chance of us switching to the Euro (even though our time will come to switch).

but this isn't going to be rapid, unless there is some major world war (which doesn't look likely at the moment)

A thing of note, as I type Home Secretary John Reid is on television talking about terrorism, behind him are two flags:

The Union Flag and the flag of the European Union, both of equal size, both equal in their distance to Mr Reid.

This is something I'm rather uncomfortable with, the Union Flag should be the only flag present, the flag of the EU should be second to the flag of each nation member of the EU.

Well it is all for a large meeting of the EU Ministers in the UK PJ, so, so what?

Why should anyone be "uncomfortable" about the union flag flying with other flags?

It happens every time there is an international meeting (you even see it outside every big hotel!) , you'd have thought you'd have gotten used to it (and not just with the EU flag......which we are afterall long-term and full members of).



[edit on 16-8-2006 by sminkeypinkey]

Originally posted by sminkeypinkey
Well it is all for a large meeting of the EU Ministers in the UK PJ, so, so what?

Sky News didn't inform me of that fact, it was simply stated News Alert, nothing about it being a meeting of EU Ministers.

Thanks for clearing it up

Careful of that Sky stuff there PJ!

Rupert's finest have a habit of leaving out bits of the story.

well, around the finance area in London, the EU flag will probably be out on display now (i believe it was before)

many councils will fly it and so will hotels too

Originally posted by infinite
Unelected? are you refering to the European council or Parliament? (which is elected by the people of Europe).

but with America slowly starting to decline now, its only a matter of time before Europe comes together as one. But while our economy remains in a strong holding, there is no chance of us switching to the Euro (even though our time will come to switch).

but this isn't going to be rapid, unless there is some major world war (which doesn't look likely at the moment)

there are three main institutions. The European Comission is not democratic.

en.wikipedia.org...

Noet the Council of the European Union (one half of parliament) also meet in secret without scrutiny.

From wikipedia outlining the main criticism:

hose who argue that the European Union suffers from a democratic deficit often attribute this to a number of factors:

en.wikipedia.org...

the new treaty does attempt to remedy the situation, but there are other debatable things included in it, and so this won't be implemented for a while.


[edit on 16-8-2006 by Peyres]

[edit on 16-8-2006 by Peyres]

Lenin said it would take 100 years to destroy the soviet unions greatest enemy, and he was right. The socialist empire being built today is the greatest threat to freedom ever to raise its head in this country. it is more pervasive than the Nazi reich, more destructive than communism could ever be, and its name is Federal Europe.

Unaccountable, unsupervised, unelected. they have set out from the very start to complete a master plan, and under the socialist banner they have all but achieved this aim. In 2017 will be the hundreth year from the date of that qoute, and the UK will be no more - lenin was right, socialism will destroy the UK, and we cannot do anything to stop it because our own goverment will not listen to us and obey our wishes.... so into the federal super state we roll......

why do they all insist on building a 'super state' ?? Why can they just not let us be our own countries with allies and trade like the origional trading agreement stated??? yet here we are blindly stumbling towards totalitarian unelected unaccountable dictatorship. You will obey your new German masters. The reich will rise again.

Oh and another thing, pulling out of europe would save us billions each year we have to pour into the sink holes of eastern europe, propping up such nice places that are in it for the money. oh and don't get me started about the 325,000 eastern europeans flooding the UK at the moment. All because we want to be good little europeans.....

Look after the UK first, then worry about those outside our borders, God knows the countries in a bad enough state as it is.

we get money out of the EU too, so pulling out will cost us aswell and plus, the workers who come from Europe, do the jobs that we do not want to do (one can compare this to Mexicans in America) and they are worth £8 Billion+ to the UK economy.

Annnnnd......I was driving through Ashford today (going to the outlet shopping complex) and i found it great to see EU flags flying around the business area of Ashford.

[edit on 21-8-2006 by infinite]

there are three main institutions. The European Comission is not democratic

Is it not the heads of Governments that appoint the Europeans Commission? They are elcted by the people of Individual staes are they not.

we get money out of the EU too, so pulling out will cost us aswell and plus, the workers who come from Europe, do the jobs that we do not want to do (one can compare this to Mexicans in America) and they are worth £8 Billion+ to the UK economy.

We might get money out of the E.U., but we pay alot of it back do we not, Is why there was an debate over the UK rebate that it gets. Some feel that the UK pay too much, whil others feel we should pay the full amount. Without the rebate the UK would pay 15 times as much as France.

So weither or not the UK would benefit from pulling out off the E.U. is debatable.

One last thing though: your quote

plus, the workers who come from Europe, do the jobs that we do not want to do

It is not that they employ other people from Europe because we do not want to do certain jobs, Employers know they can employ workers from Europe below the Minimum wage, Really it is cheap labour. I knwo that for a fact, A certain Company here in Scotland laid off 200 Workers only to employ Workers from other european countries at a lower wage. I think it is rather ridiculous that they have skilled workers here in the UK but they would prefer to pay people from other european countries less than they do with UK Workers.

[edit on 21-8-2006 by spencerjohnstone]