Originally posted by LancerJ1

Originally posted by Rev Paine
How do you know what a man named Moses did? The "books of Moses" were written hundreds of years after his death.

Moses wrote the "books of Moses".

Originally posted by LancerJ1
But humans evolving from apes i think not.

Moses could not have written the books of Moses.

"In Deuteronomy, the style and manner of writing marks more evidently than in the former books that Moses is not the writer. The manner here used is dramatical; the writer opens the subject by a short introductory discourse, and then introduces Moses as in the act of speaking, and when he has made Moses finish his harrangue, he (the writer) resumes his own part, and speaks till he brings Moses forward again, and at last closes the scene with an account of the death, funeral, and character of Moses."

Could Moses have written the tale of his own funeral?

"In Genesis xiv., the writer gives an account of Lot being taken prisoner in a battle between the four kings against five, and carried off; and that when the account of Lot being taken came to Abraham, that he armed all his household and marched to rescue Lot from the captors; and that he pursued them unto Dan. (ver. 14.)

To shew in what manner this expression of Pursuing them unto Dan applies to the case in question, I will refer to two circumstances, the one in America, the other in France. The city now called New York, in America, was originally New Amsterdam; and the town in France, lately called Havre Marat, was before called Havre-de-Grace. New Amsterdam was changed to New York in the year 1664; Havre-de-Grace to Havre Marat in the year 1793. Should, therefore, any writing be found, though without date, in which the name of New-York should be mentioned, it would be certain evidence that such a writing could not have been written before, and must have been written after New Amsterdam was changed to New York, and consequently not till after the year 1664, or at least during the course of that year. And in like manner, any dateless writing, with the name of Havre Marat, would be certain evidence that such a writing must have been written after Havre-de-Grace became Havre Marat, and consequently not till after the year 1793, or at least during the course of that year.

I now come to the application of those cases, and to show that there was no such place as Dan till many years after the death of Moses; and consequently, that Moses could not be the writer of the book of Genesis, where this account of pursuing them unto Dan is given.

The place that is called Dan in the Bible was originally a town of the Gentiles, called Laish; and when the tribe of Dan seized upon this town, they changed its name to Dan, in commemoration of Dan, who was the father of that tribe, and the great grandson of Abraham.

To establish this in proof, it is necessary to refer from Genesis to chapter xviii. of the book called the Book of judges. It is there said (ver. 27) that "they (the Danites) came unto Laish to a people that were quiet and secure, and they smote them with the edge of the sword [the Bible is filled with murder] and burned the city with fire; and they built a city, (ver. 28,) and dwelt therein, and [ver. 29,] they called the name of the city Dan, after the name of Dan, their father; howbeit the name of the city was Laish at the first."

This account of the Danites taking possession of Laish and changing it to Dan, is placed in the book of Judges immediately after the death of Samson. The death of Samson is said to have happened B.C. 1120 and that of Moses B.C. 1451; and, therefore, according to the historical arrangement, the place was not called Dan till 331 years after the death of Moses."

The Bible clearly makes it impossible for Moses to have written the books that the Catholics have called "the books of Moses."


[edit on 20-8-2006 by Rev Paine]

Seems to me that after reading many discussions and seeing many reports on the subject, using the tales from regions all around earth and related symbology, the theory of creation is alike in alot of cultures. I believe that Judaism took what they knew from Egyptians, who took what they knew from ancient civilizations such as Summarians. Christianity took their theory from Judaism.

Originally posted by Esoteric Teacher


I apoligize in advance for how this may sound, but i know no other way to ask.


What external authority exists capable of providing evidence (that is external from GOD and all God's creation)?

God could reveal its self to the public.

Seems to me you are asking for Lucifer's stand on the subject. He is after all the only external authority in regards to the all encompassing dominion of God.

Lucifer?

"The Christian mythologists tell that their Satan made war against the Almighty, who defeated him, and confined him afterwards, not under a mountain, but in a pit. It is here easy to see that the first fable suggested the idea of the second; for the fable of Jupiter and the Giants was told many hundred years before that of Satan.

Thus far the ancient and the Christian mythologists differ very little from each other. But the latter have contrived to carry the matter much farther. They have contrived to connect the fabulous part of the story of Jesus Christ with the fable originating from Mount Etna; and, in order to make all the parts of the story tie together, they have taken to their aid the traditions of the Jews; for the Christian mythology is made up partly from the ancient mythology, and partly from the Jewish traditions.

The Christian mythologists, after having confined Satan in a pit, were obliged to let him out again to bring on the sequel of the fable. He is then introduced into the garden of Eden in the shape of a snake, or a serpent, and in that shape he enters into familiar conversation with Eve, who is no ways surprised to hear a snake talk; and the issue of this tete-a-tate is, that he persuades her to eat an apple, and the eating of that apple damns all mankind.

After giving Satan this triumph over the whole creation, one would have supposed that the church mythologists would have been kind enough to send him back again to the pit, or, if they had not done this, that they would have put a mountain upon him, (for they say that their faith can remove a mountain) or have put him under a mountain, as the former mythologists had done, to prevent his getting again among the women, and doing more mischief. But instead of this, they leave him at large, without even obliging him to give his parole. The secret of which is, that they could not do without him; and after being at the trouble of making him, they bribed him to stay. They promised him ALL the Jews, ALL the Turks by anticipation, nine-tenths of the world beside, and Mahomet into the bargain. After this, who can doubt the bountifulness of the Christian Mythology?"

I'm sorry, silly me thought common sense might have something to do with it. Your right, people ARE incapable of thinking for themselve's and need an almighty god to tell them what is right and wrong.

Your reply is typical of one that cannot account for morals.

Wow. Just wow. Lead by example my friend. Lead by example. Next time you pray, include that into your prayers.

This reply is complete babble. Skirts the issue.

Your right, I'm sorry. Deuteronomy 21:21 'All the men of the town must then stone him to death. You must banish this evil from among you.'

Let's do one better and give the fuller context.

Deut 21:18-21
18 "If any man has a stubborn and rebellious son who will not obey his father or his mother, and when they chastise him, he will not even listen to them,

19 then his father and mother shall seize him, and bring him out to the elders of his city at the gateway of his hometown.

20 "They shall say to the elders of his city, "This son of ours is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey us, he is a glutton and a drunkard.'

21 "Then all the men of his city shall stone him to death; so you shall remove the evil from your midst, and all Israel will hear of it and fear.
NASU

First, I know of no incident in Scripture where this was ever carried out.

Secondly, parents or elders within a Godly family (in this case the Israelites) were as representitives of God on earth. To rebel against them was to also rebel against God first and foremost for one of Gods Commandments for a proper and healthy family was that children were to obey their parents, to honor them. Sin is like a cancer, once it infects one area of the family unit it begins to spread until ittakes over and ruins it. This command was a deterent for that. You use the passage as if at any time a child is unruly he was to be stoned to death, which is not only incorrect but again ignorant.

Third, it was the ELDERS of the city that had the final say so. Parents could not just stone their children for one offense or for one incident of back talk. The seriousness of the punishment at hand indicated that the "rebellion" of the son or daughter was drastic. The abuse of parents, beating them, stealing, etc.

Fourth, Numbers 35:31 allows a substitution for capital punishment crimes, except of course murder.

Num 35:30-31
30 "If anyone kills a person, the murderer shall be put to death at the evidence of witnesses, but no person shall be put to death on the testimony of one witness.

31 "Moreover, you shall not take ransom for the life of a murderer who is guilty of death, but he shall surely be put to death.
NASU

Heh. I have done my research. I'm not blinded by faith and am able to see the many contradictions within the bible. Like the eight ways to get into heaven. Making it pretty damn impossible to achieve. But no, I'm the ignorant one despite some people who will sit there and claim that human sacrifice isn't in the bible.

Given your ignorance towards Scripture, you are also wrong about the "eight ways to get into heaven".

What was Galileo's crime? What was his eye for an eye? What were the Jews crime? Etc Etc Etc. The list could go on forever, literally. Christianity is the leading most hypocritical belief system on this planet. IF there is a god, you can bet your sweet buttocks that hipochristians are not on the top of his loved list.

You have totally wrecked, misused and abused this one. The Scriptures did not punish Galileo but rather men did who misused and abused their power and authority. You are looking at the crimes of men and their abuse of Scripture and power and white washing everything "God" along with it. The logic here is absurd.

The Bible breeds ignorance
All Christians read the Bible
Therefore all Christians are ignorant

bah

@Rockpuck,

Lol, silly goose.

using the tales from regions all around earth and related symbology, the theory of creation is alike in alot of cultures.

Let me guess, your looking at middle eastern religions only huh? Take a look at the WHOLE WORLDS various and extremely different religions. The middle east is the ONLY monotheistic region, and going back through history you can clearly see it's theft of polytheistic beliefs and holidays. There's no other religion like judaism on this planet, except it's offshoot's of catholicism and hipochristianity.

Your reply is typical of one that cannot account for morals.

WHAT?! Are you saying common sense CAN'T account for morals? So, for someone like you it's not common sense to NOT kill another person just for the hell of it, but you need a god to tell you that's wrong? Damn boy, if this is the case then PLEASE don't try and argue who's more moral then the other.

This reply is complete babble. Skirts the issue.

Far from it my friend.

Given your ignorance towards Scripture, you are also wrong about the "eight ways to get into heaven".

Ok first off, the alternative, is still abit iffy. If the child is disrespecting both parents at the same time, that would be more then one witness making a good stoning a perfectly viable punishment for the little brat, or are there anymore work arounds from killing your own children in the oh so moral bible? Wrong about the ways into heaven? Can't agree with you there, I've read 'em, god or rather jesus seemed pretty clear on that. Unless of course you wish to change what your god commands? Wouldn't surprise me, typical hipochristian attitude.

You have totally wrecked, misused and abused this one. The Scriptures did not punish Galileo but rather men did who misused and abused their power and authority. You are looking at the crimes of men and their abuse of Scripture and power and white washing everything "God" along with it. The logic here is absurd.

Your right, there is no godly commandment for murduring someone who speaks the truth. It was the corrupt priethood who were afraid people might LEARN the truth and so have done what they've done through out history. Destroy it. And religion breeds what kind of morals again?

The Bible breeds ignorance
All Christians read the Bible
Therefore all Christians are ignorant

Close.

Religions breed ignorance
People gullibly follow religions without evidence
Therfore all religious people are ignorant.

See, doesn't have to be just hipochristians. If I were going to pick on just christians alone, I'd reword it to include hypocrits instead.

WHAT?! Are you saying common sense CAN'T account for morals? So, for someone like you it's not common sense to NOT kill another person just for the hell of it, but you need a god to tell you that's wrong? Damn boy, if this is the case then PLEASE don't try and argue who's more moral then the other.

Correct. Common sense cannot account for morals. If common sense be our guide, our standard, then you cannot find fault in Hitler or a thief or a rapist nor Scripture. Common sense is not the actuator of morals but rather a by product or result of reasoning.

Morals then become relative and not absolute for one persons "common sense" may tell them that it's OK to steal, lie and cheat. You may think that this is not right, it's not "common sense" but again who are you to tell others what their common sense should be? If your common sense tells you that stealing is wrong why should you impose your common sense on everyone, everywhere?? Aren't you upset at God for doing that?

The better question to ask is, "Why is murder wrong for everyone, everywhere?" Get a group of 100 people and fly them to the farthest planet in this universe and murder would still be wrong for all 100. Why is that? Serial killers even know that what they do is wrong yet if common sense is our guide, our ruler, then you could never find fault with the actions of others. In fact your "common sense" should then tell you that you can't convince me otherwise with such poor reasoning. There is a universal absolute moral law, just as there is Absolute Truth.

Ok first off, the alternative, is still abit iffy. If the child is disrespecting both parents at the same time, that would be more then one witness making a good stoning a perfectly viable punishment for the little brat, or are there anymore work arounds from killing your own children in the oh so moral bible? Wrong about the ways into heaven? Can't agree with you there, I've read 'em, god or rather jesus seemed pretty clear on that. Unless of course you wish to change what your god commands? Wouldn't surprise me, typical hipochristian attitude.

First, why do you wish to stone a child? Better, why do you want God to be the cause of that stoning? For the better of your child do you not place rules on them? Will you allow your child to be hit and killed by a car before you tell them not to run in the street? Oh...wait, if you wait until they have been killed then it doesn't do much good to tell them, right? No one should be a "reactive" parent but rather a "PROactive" parent. Warn the child or person first of the dangers, harm and consequences of their actions hoping that this will be enough.

Secondly, how many sons (daughters), knowing that this law could and would be carried out, do you think committed the crime? What does "common sense" tell you pr0ton?

Also pr0ton, you didn't list the "7 ways into heaven" program. Just where might one find those ?

Let's tone down the rhetoric in here before it goes too far.

Showing anger through your words does not help in explaining your stance, it only encourages others to respond in kind.

This stops here...the next occurance of flaming will draw warns.



[edit on 21-8-2006 by masqua]

Wait wait wait, just to double check here and reeeally make sure I understand your viewpoint on this issue. You seriously think people are incapable of acting moral on their own grounds unless they worship the god of the bible?

I never stated that people who do not believe in God are incapable of having morals or acting upon their morals. You can't even read correctly my posts and in their context why should I trust what you then say about the Scriptures?

My statement was that "common sense" cannot be the rule, guide, standard nor cause of morals. Reason being is that one person may have a high degree of "common sense" while another person has little. How then can we, as a society, fault that person for their mistakes or wrong doings?

If morals are relative, caused or known as such through common sense then Hitler can't be found guilty of his crimes. He did nothing wrong. Perhaps in your eyes (common sense) he has wronged many people but perhaps his common sense told him that Jews are inferior and therefore they must be exterminated. If morals are relative, to each his own, then who are you to claim Hitler was wrong? Is your common sense greater than his?

It is UNIVERSALLY wrong to kill another human in cold blood (murder). It is wrong for all people, everywhere. There is no place you can go where it is not wrong. Same for rape, molesting a child, stealing, cheating. Our very laws of justice are built upon Biblical principles. Your objection to all things Biblical, Jesus, God, Christians, must be done using Biblical principles.

In seeking to deny that morals are universal you also confirm it by your own worldview. You claim that we have morals because of common sense. You believe this to be "universally" true for all people, everywhere. If you deny this to be true then our debate is over for you then have no reason to argue....unless you wish to push your worldview on me and others.....but only "hipochristians" do that right?

If you confirm that yes, it is universally true all morals come from common sense, then you have proven it to yourself. No need to ask the question.....or is it rhetorical?

I DON'T! Your screwed up god and HIS rules in YOUR bible tell people to stone fecking children. AND I'M IMMORAL? Piss off.

Incorrect. God never says to stone children. God gives a command of how parents are to be treated by their offspring. Likewise parents are told to treat their children with respect, care, love and decency. It is a family unit that God seeks to preserve.

With the command comes consequences for it being broken. The law is designed to keep people safe and in order. To break the law one must pay. Stop putting words in Gods mouth.

Lastly, look at your tone. Where does this hateful, ignorant and tempermental "child" God of the Bible ever call children...."fecking children" ?? Could it be possible that "fecking" is missing the letter "u" between the "f" and the "c"? What's the matter, you don't care for children? Should all children go "feck themselves"?

You tell me to "Piss off" and then ask...."AND I'M IMMORAL?" Gee, I dunno...I wonder what my "common sense" tells me?

You're allowing your emotions to take over, not a good sign.

And how many more wars does hipochristianity need to gain more converts? How much more destruction of cultures does it need? Moral my left arse cheek.

This response once again skirts the issue. You reply does not address my question. I have attempted to reply to each question you ask yet you skirt mine and reply with emotional outbursts.

Eight. All in the bible and all given by the J-Man himself. But hey, YOU seem to know your contradictory ridden bible better then me. So, find it yourself. It's all there in black and white.

Typical avoidance. Make a claim, then when asked to provide reference the asker is told to "find it yourself".

[edit on 21-8-2006 by UnrealZA]

Originally posted by Prot0n

The wages of Sin is Death. It can not be implied much better than this. HELLO.

Perhaps in God's eye that's OK. As for us moral people, we VALUE life. Punishment should never have to be extinguishing another's life. NEVER.

But Proton, You must know what this means prior to appointing a Secularistic Value System, to equate the dogma of Material Based Morals.

There is Life and Death. Once there was ONLY Life. Eternal Life. But sin, caused life to be Numbered. First, 1000 years, Then 120 Years, then 70 Years, and some suggest 60 years, as well.

But this is nothing that God Chose. The Sinner's did. They embraced the merits of death, and exceeded all expectations. (The Original Sin?, Cain and his Murder of Abel, The Fallen and the Daughters of Man, Babel)

Wait a sec. Back the F up son... Are you trying to say that the whole globe once worshipped the christian god? Man you need a smack upside the head with your bible. Maybe god will knock some common sense into you. Learn abit about history.

As commanded, ..........(pause for effect)...........What?

Tell us about History then, my friend.

Tell me how the Sumerians have recorded a Trinity Based Faith, that worship deities and gods dating some 7000 to 10000 years ago or such.

God was there, in the Begining, so I am not very impressed, by 10000 years or so. Get out of the SNAPSHOT, and look at the Whole PICTURE. The Grand Scheme Please. The Recreation event, took place some 14000 Years ago, or there abouts. Genesis Chapter 2 took place some 8000 years ago, or there about.

And here you where suggesting Rev needed assistance.

Learn a bit about history

You are also commanded to stone your children. Look it up!

If you children, allow for you, to sacrafice your First Born to Molech, and did nothing but conform to these acts, yes, this could occur, but you would be in the Site Line of flying rocks as well and likely one of the first to go.

The church today is corrupt. What are YOU doing to stop the corruption? Guilt by association, scared yet?

I am posting BIBLE TEACHINGS and placing them here within the confines of ATS, so that maybe one or two individuals can one day review the matter, and realize, what you just noted above IS accurate and reflects greatly upon the DOCTRINE and THEOLOGIES OF MAN, pushed out of the PULPITS of the Churches around this globe.

So now I ask, What are you doing? Hmmmmm. Making friends and influencing people?

What of the Battle with Og, and Sihon of the Ammorites and Moses. Exactly what was Moses doing? Following the Instructions of God.

So, hypothetically, if someone murdered your parents and claimed they were just listening to god... Would that make it all better?

The First Example was under the terms of Abomination as well as being at war with Og, due to his distain for God's Chosen people, the Israelites.

Moses did not Murder Anyone.

So Hypothetically, NO. IF someone murdered My parents and claimed they were just listening to god... I would ensure those where dispatch swiftly in order to verify those instruction which God and my Parents.

Murder is a Capital Offense. An Act of War is just that.

And yes, man IS that imaginative. Actually, much more so then what you see in ancient mythologies. Haven't you seen movies and books latley or do you remain ignorant and keep your nose in the bible and conspiracy topics?

Altantis? Hmmmm Are We more Advanced today? Hmmmmm

And now, every advancement in technology over the last 59 years or so, has exploded, all due to the Events of that Age. Much like the First Earth Age, which when considered, revolve around Atlantis, and Lemura.

Funny how the Launch of an Age, happened at the same time as the Crash of an Age. (Roswell)

Ancient Technology we are only begining to comprehend and make use of.

We even have still, some way to go to return to the Days of Babel. (One Global Language).

But yes, the Sumerians seemed to have been the FIRST to learn how to write their Language again.

Yea, and eden was found from a ... SUMMERIAN manuscript. Same place as depicted in the bible. Just had better directions on howto get there. I bet you don't even know where the concept of hell came from or how hardly any other religions even have sucha thing.

[edit on 20-8-2006 by masqua]

[edit on 20-8-2006 by masqua]

Well, break out the band wagon, and let's start the parade. This is earth shattering news my friend. Eden was found???

The search for Atlantis has now been completed. Thanks Proton for letting us all know this.

Because if they Found Edin, (sorry, there it is again), Eden, then just to the West of it Lies Atlantis.





And Masqua

Thanks.

Your Edits, speak louder than any response I could have offered.



Ciao

Shane

[edit on 22-8-2006 by Shane]

Originally posted by Rev Paine

How does it take any measure of faith to reject double heresay? Only the opposite is true; which is that faith is required to accept double heresay as being true.

I beg to differ. Faith, religiously, is confidence in the truth without having direct evidence. If you believe, for example, that God does not exist, you have "faith" that God does not exist without any direct evidence thereof. Likewise, many Christians believe in God and the words of the Bible based on faith; that is, without direct evidence of its authenticity. All written, unauthenticated, writings are hearsay (not "heresay"). It takes faith to either believe in God or not believe in God.

Many Christians profess in experiencing a personal relationship with the Savior, Jesus. They feel, therefore, that they experience, first hand, the existence of God which comes after first having faith. Trying to dissuade a person from their belief system after they have had this experience would be hard to do indeed.

As for Moses, I believe he did what you say he did based on my faith in the veracity of the Old Testament. Why, however, do you believe Moses was such a murderous monster based on hearsay and if you do not believe in the veracity of the Old Testament?
~~~~~~~~~~~~
fixed quote



[edit on 23-8-2006 by masqua]

Originally posted by Rev Paine
Lucifer?

"The Christian mythologists tell that their Satan made war against the Almighty, who defeated him, and confined him afterwards, not under a mountain, but in a pit. It is here easy to see that the first fable suggested the idea of the second; for the fable of Jupiter and the Giants was told many hundred years before that of Satan.

Now You are making a very good point, but taking this somewhat out of context.

Yes, Satan, by whatever additional names you wish to apply, is a more current Identuty in the Big Picture, But I wish to suggest there is two distinct occurances being presented.

The Lore of Jupiter and the Giants revolve around a period of time that was altered greatly by the Great Flood. This is when the "gods" and "deities", ended their physical influences with man, and tended to become a "spiritual" type entity demanding worship.

But the War that involved God and Satan is a Pre "Creation" event from the First Earth Age.

The Removal of the "Flesh" was the goal of the Flood, due to the recent occurances of the Fallen Procreating with the Daugthers of man.

This is evident in most of the Mythos of the Ancient Cultures and their gods of worship.

Thus far the ancient and the Christian mythologists differ very little from each other.

Would you also say, THEY ARE THE SAME STORY.

Hey, here's a Modern Example of what I believe took place.

15 People, and You, see a Murder.

Not all will offer the same Testamony.

5 May think the Perp was 6'2", while 11 think he was 5'10". 8 Think he was Black, but two couldn't tell, since he wore a mask. The Other 6 thought he was Hispanic, due to some Hankerchief. They all note the Victim dies quickly, but 3 thought he was stabbed twice and 1 thought he was executed, Gang Style.

Point is, each is telling the SAME STORY, but not all of the Stories have the same observations.

Ciao

Shane



[edit on 22-8-2006 by Shane]

Originally posted by Prot0n

Religions breed ignorance
People gullibly follow religions without evidence
Therfore all religious people are ignorant.

I would add that all non-religious people are ignorant as well.

Originally posted by Blarney63

Originally posted by Prot0n

Religions breed ignorance
People gullibly follow religions without evidence
Therfore all religious people are ignorant.

I would add that all non-religious people are ignorant as well.

I would first say, that was not called for.

Second, Proton is correct in his assessment.

Religion was what Christ conflicted with. Not Non Religious Types. That's where he spent all his time. With non religious people.

No, Religion breeds it's own inherant problems that are based, in most cases, upon thoughts and premises of MAN, and are incorperated within the Doctrine they sell.

Certainly some religious group infact teach the Word of God, and leave Doctrine to those who deem it important, (Generally the one's counting the Tithes and Offerings), but it is religion that has screwed up the whole thing beyond belief.

Look, You can be a Christian.

Or you can be a Baptist (since they do not get noted all the time).

Point is, we are told to be Christ-Like by Scripture, or we are taught how to be Baptists with no regard for the Bible and it's comments or teachings. In many cases, Sects/Cults of Christianity, are preaching their own Scripture.

If we can do away with RELIGION, and just worry about God's Word, and apply the lessons we can learn from it to our day to day lives, 90% of the problems of this Globe would be gone.

Anyways

Ciao

Shane

Originally posted by Rev Paine
Could Moses have written the tale of his own funeral?

Perhaps Moses' successor Joshua wrote the last few lines about his death or maybe God commanded Moses to write this before it happened.

Originally posted by Shane

Originally posted by Blarney63

Originally posted by Prot0n

Religions breed ignorance
People gullibly follow religions without evidence
Therfore all religious people are ignorant.

I would add that all non-religious people are ignorant as well.

I would first say, that was not called for.

Second, Proton is correct in his assessment.

I'm not sure, but I think you missed my point. Proton correctly states that all "religious" people are ignorant (implying, I believe, that non-religious people are not). I believe we are all ignorant for nobody knows all things. Religious and non-religious people all lack information in some way or another - I know I do.

JIM MARRS has an excellent book that discusses this.

Basically it comes down to this - MANY of the Christian stories in the bible are from Summeria and have to do with the ANNANUKI.

Check out the Jim Marrs books. EXCELLENT information.