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Question: From where does the Christian belief of Creation come from?

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posted on Aug, 7 2006 @ 10:17 PM
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Question: From where does the Christian belief of Creation come from?

Creation is based on heresay.

When Moses told the children of Israel that he received the two tables of the commandments from the hand of God, they were not obliged to believe him, because they had no other authority for it than his telling them so; and I have no other authority for it than some historian telling me so, the commandments carrying no internal evidence of divinity with them. They contain some good moral precepts such as any man qualified to be a lawgiver or a legislator could produce himself, without having recourse to supernatural intervention. [NOTE: It is, however, necessary to except the declamation which says that God 'visits the sins of the fathers upon the children'. This is contrary to every principle of moral justice.--Author.]

The Bible was created by man.

When the church mythologists established their system, they collected all the writings they could find, and managed them as they pleased. It is a matter altogether of uncertainty to us whether such of the writings as now appear under the name of the Old and the New Testament, are in the same state in which those collectors say they found them; or whether they added, altered, abridged, or dressed them up.

Be this as it may, they decided by vote which of the books out of the collection they had made, should be the WORD OF GOD, and which should not. They rejected several; they voted others to be doubtful, such as the books called the Apocrypha; and those books which had a majority of votes, were voted to be the word of God. Had they voted otherwise, all the people since calling themselves Christians had believed otherwise; for the belief of the one comes from the vote of the other. Who the people were that did all this, we know nothing of. They call themselves by the general name of the Church; and this is all we know of the matter.

We have no other external evidence or authority for believing these books to be the word of God.

The Creation is discussed in the "books" of Moses, which were not written by Moses, and are anonymous and without authority.

Moses is not the author of the book of Genesis.

In Genesis xxxvi. there is given a genealogy of the sons and descendants of Esau, who are called Edomites, and also a list by name of the kings of Edom; in enumerating of which, it is said, verse 31, "And these are the kings that reigned in Edom, before there reigned any king over the children of Israel."

Now, were any dateless writing to be found, in which, speaking of any past events, the writer should say, these things happened before there was any Congress in America, or before there was any Convention in France, it would be evidence that such writing could not have been written before, and could only be written after there was a Congress in America or a Convention in France, as the case might be; and, consequently, that it could not be written by any person who died before there was a Congress in the one country, or a Convention in the other.




posted on Aug, 7 2006 @ 10:20 PM
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Even if Moses was the author of the creation myth, why believe him? The Bible tells us that Moses was as great of a monster as Hitler.

Besides, the character of Moses, as stated in the Bible, is the most horrid that can be imagined. If those accounts be true, he was the wretch that first began and carried on wars on the score or on the pretence of religion; and under that mask, or that infatuation, committed the most unexampled atrocities that are to be found in the history of any nation. Of which I will state only one instance:

When the Jewish army returned from one of their plundering and murdering excursions, the account goes on as follows (Numbers xxxi. 13): "And Moses, and Eleazar the priest, and all the princes of the congregation, went forth to meet them without the camp; and Moses was wroth with the officers of the host, with the captains over thousands, and captains over hundreds, which came from the battle; and Moses said unto them, "Have ye saved all the women alive?" behold, these caused the children of Israel, through the counsel of Balaam, to commit trespass against the Lord in the matter of Peor, and there was a plague among the congregation of the Lord. Now therefore, "kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known a man by lying with him; but all the women-children that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for Yourselves."

Among the detestable villains that in any period of the world have disgraced the name of man, it is impossible to find a greater than Moses, if this account be true. Here is an order to butcher the boys, to massacre the mothers, and debauch the daughters.

Let any mother put herself in the situation of those mothers, one child murdered, another destined to violation, and herself in the hands of an executioner: let any daughter put herself in the situation of those daughters, destined as a prey to the murderers of a mother and a brother, and what will be their feelings? It is in vain that we attempt to impose upon nature, for nature will have her course, and the religion that tortures all her social ties is a false religion.

After this detestable order, follows an account of the plunder taken, and the manner of dividing it; and here it is that the profanenegs of priestly hypocrisy increases the catalogue of crimes. Verse 37, "And the Lord's tribute of the sheep was six hundred and threescore and fifteen; and the beeves were thirty and six thousand, of which the Lord's tribute was threescore and twelve; and the asses were thirty thousand, of which the Lord's tribute was threescore and one; and the persons were sixteen thousand, of which the Lord's tribute was thirty and two." In short, the matters contained in this chapter, as well as in many other parts of the Bible, are too horrid for humanity to read, or for decency to hear; for it appears, from the 35th verse of this chapter, that the number of women-children consigned to debauchery by the order of Moses was thirty-two thousand.



posted on Aug, 7 2006 @ 11:23 PM
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Rev

Although the question is relevant, I miss how the Post, answers the question or makes your point.

It is wonderful to express the importance of the Origins of the Manuscripts and you have done a fine job discussing this, although your views and mine do not meet in light of those Origins.

But I am missing the premise of where this belief comes from, that Christian Belief of Creation.

And despite what you have offered, is it solely the Account laid forth in Genesis that we obtain any insight to the Frist Earth Age, and the manner of how this earth age differs? No, the Bible, is completely full of text that speaks to this, even throughout the New Testament.

But maybe I am being Hasty, and asking too early. If so, I look forward to the balance.

Ciao

Shane



posted on Aug, 8 2006 @ 11:57 AM
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Originally posted by Shane
Rev

Although the question is relevant, I miss how the Post, answers the question or makes your point.

It is wonderful to express the importance of the Origins of the Manuscripts and you have done a fine job discussing this, although your views and mine do not meet in light of those Origins.

But I am missing the premise of where this belief comes from, that Christian Belief of Creation.

And despite what you have offered, is it solely the Account laid forth in Genesis that we obtain any insight to the Frist Earth Age, and the manner of how this earth age differs? No, the Bible, is completely full of text that speaks to this, even throughout the New Testament.

But maybe I am being Hasty, and asking too early. If so, I look forward to the balance.

Ciao

Shane



My question, which is posed to Christians, is where they get their belief that God created the Earth, or anything for that matter, when their only source is the Holy Bible, which is anonymous and without authority, based on heresay upon heresay, and fillied with characters that are the a kin to the greastest monsters that history has to offer.



posted on Aug, 8 2006 @ 02:33 PM
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Originally posted by Rev Paine
My question, which is posed to Christians, is where they get their belief that God created the Earth, or anything for that matter, when their only source is the Holy Bible, which is anonymous and without authority, based on heresay upon heresay, and fillied with characters that are the a kin to the greastest monsters that history has to offer.


Well, to begin, A Christian Prespective of Creation, would come from the Doctrines and Theology of Sects/Cults of Christiandom.

Many Christians have little understanding what is actually within the Bible, and simply follow to output of the Denomination being preached in it's Pulpit.

It's things like, Adam was the First Man, and Eve ate an Apple, and Cain is Adam's son that would lead you to believe, the Bible was never opened let alone read.

As for this conception that God, is a fuzzy, newage, cuddlely being that has some instructions that "COULD" be followed, is amusing.

The wages of Sin is Death. It can not be implied much better than this. HELLO.

God has some pretty easy rules that are required, solely due to Satan, the Devil, that Serpent, the Beast, Apollyon, the Desolator, the Prince of the Power of the Air, and whatever other names your would/could apply.

Prior to the Fall, this whole GLOBE worshipped God according to the Festivals/Feasts. It was due to the Fallen, coming to Co-habit with Man on Earth. Their teachings and vainity led man from the "known" system, and since then, the Commandments and the Laws became required.

You are commanded, not to sacrafice your first born son or daughter to the Fires of Molech.

Punishment is death, and this would include those associated to the Abomination, but not stepping up to Stop It. If this was just the Family, then the whole family is punishable. If it spreads further and happened to involve the community condoning suchs acts, then the Punish applies for the City.

Is this Monsterous? OF course not. It's common descency.

What of the Battle with Og, and Sihon of the Ammorites and Moses. Exactly what was Moses doing? Following the Instructions of God.

But look, if Sin is your bag, and abomination in the eyes of God is something your okay with, then thats your choice.

The wages of Sin is Death.

As an Further Example, look to Joshua. God says, "Take the Promised Land by Crossing the Jordan River". The Israelites say, Ah, Hell with that, we're in the Negev, and we'll go via Gaza.

God then uses the Ammorites to defeat Israel.

Israel says, "WHY, WHY?"

And God says "Because you did not take the Promised Land by Crossing the Jordan."

You, see, When God says something, you'd best obey. And that wasn't all that difficult to do. When they followed the instructions, they where Blessed. When they turned and departed from what they have been instructed to do, they no longer reap the blessings.

You could argue that Job, got stiffed by God, to begin with. What a terrible thing to have occur. In Mere moments, everything but his wife, was TAKEN. In the End, he had more than he had to begin with. He was always inline with God and His Laws, and was Blessed. Even though the crap happens, he is still blessed even more.

Titheing is another example.

I WANT ANYONE TO PROVE THIS WRONG.

I do not care if your a Satanist, Pagan, Atheist, or just not sure quite yet. If you go to a church, and give 10% of your wages, in the form of tithes, you may shrug and suggest your now less 10% , but in time, that 10% becomes ever more valuable in Blessing returned. And that's the trick. You have to go and Tithe. It's not a onetime event. Tithe for 4 years at a Chruch and tell me your worse for it after that time.

People who give 10% or in some cases, more than they can, as the Woman with nothing and giving her last, reap Blessings. It is Biblical Teaching. But it's also universal. No matter who you maybe, Blessing with come to you. You may not realize those blessing, but that's blindness on your behalf.

Now, here's two themes coming from the Bible. And Both of these themes are TRUE. They occur. Even today. Prove otherwise if you wish.

Now, is this some Man made concept or is it simple Devine Law. Because in essence, being a Christian is not a difficult task. If it wasn't for the Devil, it would be a no brainer.

So, you may like to compare Moses to Hitler, and insinuate guilt of these two as being comparative, but the truth is, Moses only followed as God had instructed him to do. Nothing more.

Now, as for the Question of Devinity and Inspiration of the Bible, and the aspect that it was some concept thought up by some man, you have a fine point there.

But what of the Adversary, spoke of above?

Even I acknowledge Satan is real. As are his associates, the Fallen. (And for those who may have "Others" you would wish to see included, please feel free). This is maybe where, I get misunderstood in some Posts.

I have no difficulties in understanding the Worship of ISIS, or BAAL, VENUS, SATAN, ZEUS.

These are not from the Imagination. They were here, and in most cases, did exaclty what the Myths suggests they did. They have Rites, and Prayer, and Festivals/Feasts and Sacrafice and all of those things Christains have.

Is this also based on the Concept of man? Come on, none of us are that imaginative. We can not even figure out how a Pryamid is built, and we are ever so evolved.


And this whole aspect, would make the Rothschilds, for exmple, a little concerned. The Illuminati, Masons, and Templars, along with the Merovigians and their King Lineage, would suddenly have nothing to do? They wouldn't need to retake the Mid East to build the World Capital of Jerusalem. Our news would likely be more factual. Or Governments would be more responsible. Our deseases would be less deadly. Our Globe's condition would be more welcoming and habitable.

If all this Evil, had no reason for being, the world would be a much better thing.

But this here, is a point you have also not considered. This is another reality. Nothing noted here is some fabrication.

It's strange, how my Bible is rife with instructions on how to abstain from the vices of the Fallen, and lead a better life for God. It's chock full, of information that is the fabrication of "Others"? Again, this makes little sense.

If the Dark is real, why is it the Light is not?

Then there is the Historical, which is being uncovered more and more each year. Archeaology is seeking sites, based upon Biblical Identity, and finding them, where it was noted to be located.

And in a conclusion here.

Prophesy.

SO, despite what your very good observation of the Origin of the Books of Moses noted, I think there is a wealth of areas that can be considered that outweight the unknowns you offer, but still leads to the conclusion that Devinity has it's imprint in the Manuscripts.

Have a good day Rev

Ciao

Shane


[edit on 8-8-2006 by Shane]



posted on Aug, 8 2006 @ 08:44 PM
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Hello Rev,

You state:




My question, which is posed to Christians, is where they get their belief that God created the Earth, or anything for that matter, when their only source is the Holy Bible, which is anonymous and without authority, based on heresay upon heresay, and fillied with characters that are the a kin to the greastest monsters that history has to offer.


This is a slippery slope for you, more so than the Believer. Where do you get your belief that God did not create everything? Is not your belief based on heresay and are not some of the most ignorant and monstrous morons atheists that history has to offer?

That though is not the important part. You mention "authority". Can you tell me where you learned that word, how you came to know it?

Thanks



posted on Aug, 9 2006 @ 12:21 AM
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The Old Testament is the same for Christianity and Judaism. Hebrew came by their beliefs partly from Egypt and partly from their captivity in Babylon. Since much of Egyption mythology originates in Sumer we can say that Old Testament writings have their origin in Sumerian mythos.

The Sumerian epic of creation is called the Enuma Elish. A google of the term should yield a lot of info so I will only make a few quick points.

Theologions will say that our seven day week is derived from the seven days it took God to create the universe, however it is almost certainly because the Enuma Elish was written on seven clay tablets, the last of which was a exaltation of Marduk and a parallel to the Old Testament's seventh day of rest.

Eden, in Sumerian is E.Din, and literally means "Home of the Righteous Ones".

If you ever come across a book called "Gods of the New Millennium" by Alan F. Alford, it makes for some interesting reading.


[edit on 9-8-2006 by TheComte]



posted on Aug, 11 2006 @ 03:25 AM
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G'day Rev

I understand that it is hard to believe in God when you havent had a first hand experience. It is all about faith and i think that's what you dont like. All your examples from the bible are in the old testement. In these times there were many strict rules the Jews had to follow so they could be seen as different from everyone else for they were God's chosen people. Moses' certainly wasn't a perfect man just as no Christian is perfect, he did do wrong. In the Old testement times following God's Law and his commandments, and of course having a belief in his existence was how one was a Christian. In the New Testement, because of Jesus' sacrifice we no longer need those laws, and now the way to get to God is only through Jesus.


Originally posted by Rev Paine
My question, which is posed to Christians, is where they get their belief that God created the Earth, or anything for that matter, when their only source is the Holy Bible, which is anonymous and without authority, based on heresay upon heresay, and fillied with characters that are the a kin to the greastest monsters that history has to offer.


Yes, you are correct, the only source is the bible. God creating the universe is what i was told when i was little, so i believed without doubt just as a little kid believes in Father Christmas and the Easter bunny. Now that im a teenager i have thought about creation, evolution, big bang etc etc let alone the existence of God. After looking at other alternatives i still came to the conclusion that God exists and he did create the universe. Maybe God created the universe through something like the big bang. Evolution may occur to some degree, natural selection certainly exists. Maybe God uses evolution to change things around a bit, for God loves variety. But humans evolving from apes i think not. When i look at the intricacy and beauty of the earth and universe i see purpose and deliberate design. When i see the variety of characters of people and the wonderfully designed bodies we have i see God's awsome workmanship, not a matter of chance.



posted on Aug, 20 2006 @ 02:30 AM
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Originally posted by UnrealZA
Hello Rev,

You state:




My question, which is posed to Christians, is where they get their belief that God created the Earth, or anything for that matter, when their only source is the Holy Bible, which is anonymous and without authority, based on heresay upon heresay, and fillied with characters that are the a kin to the greastest monsters that history has to offer.


This is a slippery slope for you, more so than the Believer. Where do you get your belief that God did not create everything? Is not your belief based on heresay...?


Of course not. How could the dismissal of heresay in turn also be heresay? Make sense.



That though is not the important part. You mention "authority". Can you tell me where you learned that word, how you came to know it?


I have a dictionary. Thanks.



posted on Aug, 20 2006 @ 02:34 AM
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Originally posted by LancerJ1


In these times there were many strict rules the Jews had to follow so they could be seen as different from everyone else for they were God's chosen people. Moses' certainly wasn't a perfect man just as no Christian is perfect, he did do wrong. In the Old testement times following God's Law and his commandments, and of course having a belief in his existence was how one was a Christian. In the New Testement, because of Jesus' sacrifice we no longer need those laws, and now the way to get to God is only through Jesus.



How do you know what a man named Moses did? The "books of Moses" were written hundreds of years after his death.



But humans evolving from apes i think not.


Does any theory say that humans evolved from apes? I think not.



posted on Aug, 20 2006 @ 02:48 AM
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Originally posted by Rev Paine

Originally posted by UnrealZA
Hello Rev,

You state:




My question, which is posed to Christians, is where they get their belief that God created the Earth, or anything for that matter, when their only source is the Holy Bible, which is anonymous and without authority, based on heresay upon heresay, and fillied with characters that are the a kin to the greastest monsters that history has to offer.


This is a slippery slope for you, more so than the Believer. Where do you get your belief that God did not create everything? Is not your belief based on heresay...?


Of course not. How could the dismissal of heresay in turn also be heresay? Make sense.



That though is not the important part. You mention "authority". Can you tell me where you learned that word, how you came to know it?


I have a dictionary. Thanks.


First, you're skirting the issue. You have no evidence that God did not create. You take it upon faith your worldview is correct. Same as those who have faith that God di din fact create.

Secondly, in regards to evidence, your dictionary did not give you the knowledge to know what "authority" means. You first needed knowledge to understand what is written in that dictionary, to even know its purpose.

So again, where did you learn the word "authority"?



posted on Aug, 20 2006 @ 03:03 AM
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Originally posted by UnrealZA
First, you're skirting the issue. You have no evidence that God did not create. You take it upon faith your worldview is correct.


How does it take any measure of faith to reject double heresay? Only the opposite is true; which is that faith is required to accept double heresay as being true.




So again, where did you learn the word "authority"?


From a dictionary.



posted on Aug, 20 2006 @ 04:17 AM
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Originally posted by Rev Paine
How do you know what a man named Moses did? The "books of Moses" were written hundreds of years after his death.


Moses wrote the "books of Moses".



Originally posted by LancerJ1
But humans evolving from apes i think not.



Originally posted by Rev Paine
Does any theory say that humans evolved from apes? I think not.


I take that back.



posted on Aug, 20 2006 @ 05:20 AM
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Lol Rev,

Looks like you got your hands full.



Well, to begin, A Christian Prespective of Creation, would come from the Doctrines and Theology of Sects/Cults of Christiandom.


Or from sumeria *cough*



Many Christians have little understanding what is actually within the Bible, and simply follow to output of the Denomination being preached in it's Pulpit.


Out of your whole post, this is the ONLY true part lmao.



It's things like, Adam was the First Man, and Eve ate an Apple, and Cain is Adam's son that would lead you to believe, the Bible was never opened let alone read.


Or the worlds problems is caused by a woman who got decieved by a talking snake. I love that one.



As for this conception that God, is a fuzzy, newage, cuddlely being that has some instructions that "COULD" be followed, is amusing.


Yes, it is very amusing considering it's very contradictive to what is in the bible. God could be likened to a 5 year old only child brat.



The wages of Sin is Death. It can not be implied much better than this. HELLO.


Perhaps in God's eye that's OK. As for us moral people, we VALUE life. Punishment should never have to be extinguishing another's life. NEVER.



God has some pretty easy rules that are required, solely due to Satan, the Devil, that Serpent, the Beast, Apollyon, the Desolator, the Prince of the Power of the Air, and whatever other names your would/could apply.


Easy rules? What are the eight ways to get into heaven my friend? Hardly what I'd call easy. Basicly no one is going to heaven.



Prior to the Fall, this whole GLOBE worshipped God according to the Festivals/Feasts. It was due to the Fallen, coming to Co-habit with Man on Earth. Their teachings and vainity led man from the "known" system, and since then, the Commandments and the Laws became required.


Wait a sec. Back the F up son... Are you trying to say that the whole globe once worshipped the christian god? Man you need a smack upside the head with your bible. Maybe god will knock some common sense into you. Learn abit about history.



You are commanded, not to sacrafice your first born son or daughter to the Fires of Molech.


You are also commanded to stone your children. Look it up!




Punishment is death, and this would include those associated to the Abomination, but not stepping up to Stop It. If this was just the Family, then the whole family is punishable. If it spreads further and happened to involve the community condoning suchs acts, then the Punish applies for the City.


The church today is corrupt. What are YOU doing to stop the corruption? Guilt by association, scared yet?



Is this Monsterous? OF course not. It's common descency.


(mod edit...removed personal attack)



What of the Battle with Og, and Sihon of the Ammorites and Moses. Exactly what was Moses doing? Following the Instructions of God.


So, hypothetically, if someone murdered your parents and claimed they were just listening to god... Would that make it all better?



But look, if Sin is your bag, and abomination in the eyes of God is something your okay with, then thats your choice.


Hypocrit alert.



Now, is this some Man made concept or is it simple Devine Law. Because in essence, being a Christian is not a difficult task. If it wasn't for the Devil, it would be a no brainer.


Man made concept. Obviously.



So, you may like to compare Moses to Hitler, and insinuate guilt of these two as being comparative, but the truth is, Moses only followed as God had instructed him to do. Nothing more.


So it's perfectly ok to commit monstrosities so long as you claim god said to do it? (Mod edit...removed personal attack)



These are not from the Imagination. They were here, and in most cases, did exaclty what the Myths suggests they did. They have Rites, and Prayer, and Festivals/Feasts and Sacrafice and all of those things Christains have.


LMAO. Oh daaaamn... Your something else alright.




Is this also based on the Concept of man? Come on, none of us are that imaginative. We can not even figure out how a Pryamid is built, and we are ever so evolved.


Actually, we DO know how the pyramids were built. And yes, man IS that imaginative. Actually, much more so then what you see in ancient mythologies. Haven't you seen movies and books latley or do you remain ignorant and keep your nose in the bible and conspiracy topics?



If all this Evil, had no reason for being, the world would be a much better thing.


yea, exactly why we NEED to do away with religion! When's the last war an atheist started? NONE. When's the last war a religous person started? Yesterday ... somewhere in the middle east probably.



But this here, is a point you have also not considered. This is another reality. Nothing noted here is some fabrication.


No, there is only one reality.



It's strange, how my Bible is rife with instructions on how to abstain from the vices of the Fallen, and lead a better life for God. It's chock full, of information that is the fabrication of "Others"? Again, this makes little sense.


So let's get this straight. You WILL stone your children to death the minute they disrespect you right?



Then there is the Historical, which is being uncovered more and more each year. Archeaology is seeking sites, based upon Biblical Identity, and finding them, where it was noted to be located.


Yea, and eden was found from a ... SUMMERIAN manuscript. Same place as depicted in the bible. Just had better directions on howto get there. I bet you don't even know where the concept of hell came from or how hardly any other religions even have sucha thing.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
you have a U2U

[edit on 20-8-2006 by masqua]

[edit on 20-8-2006 by masqua]



posted on Aug, 20 2006 @ 06:06 AM
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Originally posted by Rev Paine

We have no other external evidence or authority for believing these books to be the word of God.



I apoligize in advance for how this may sound, but i know no other way to ask.


What external authority exists capable of providing evidence (that is external from GOD and all God's creation)?


Seems to me you are asking for Lucifer's stand on the subject. He is after all the only external authority in regards to the all encompassing dominion of God.



[edit on 20-8-2006 by Esoteric Teacher]



posted on Aug, 20 2006 @ 09:48 AM
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Originally posted by Rev Paine

Originally posted by UnrealZA
First, you're skirting the issue. You have no evidence that God did not create. You take it upon faith your worldview is correct.


How does it take any measure of faith to reject double heresay? Only the opposite is true; which is that faith is required to accept double heresay as being true.




So again, where did you learn the word "authority"?


From a dictionary.


Here it is once again. You claim that the Bible is what Believers rely on for their evidence that God is the Creator yet, according to you, this is an unreliable source AND as you claim, "hearsay". Well how is your position any different for where does your authority come from that God did NOT create the universe?

Did a book tell you this, perhaps it was a dictionary?

Lastly, a dictionary did not teach you the word "authority". It only defines what the word is/means. You do not gain knowledge by empirical means. In other words, you did not gain knowledge by reading the dictionary, an encyclopedia, the Yellow Pages nor any text book. You seek to explain to us that God did not create the world yet you have no clue how you came to know anything at all, not even a word.

As an empiricist you rely on senses (smell, sound, sight, touch and taste) and by the use of these senses the empiricist claims or believes that he or she gains knowledge. So by empirical methods you believe you "heard" the word "authority" and to know what the word means you used "sight" to look it up in a dictionary and through this method you gain knowledge.

Observation = knowledge

The dilemma you now face is how is it that you KNOW you are observing, observing anything at all, if you have no knowledge that you are in fact observing? In other words, if you must "observe" to gain "knowledge" how do you know what you are doing is "observing" without first having knowledge?? You claim from a dictionary, well how did you come to know that word, come to know what a dictionary is?

Did you smell it?
Taste it?
Hear it make a sound?
By seeing it did you know it was a dictionary?
Touch it?

Perhaps "knowledge" evolved? Think deeply about that and the problem it presents for the first sub-humans before you so quickly respond. One thought provoking question you can ask is, if we one must "observe" to gain knowledge then who was it that "observed" the first baby taking to its mothers breast to feed seeing as how no infant prior ever took to its mothers breast??

Perhaps it's not the infant that knows this but the mother. Who then did the mother "observe" doing this if it is the FIRST mammal mother to breast feed?



posted on Aug, 20 2006 @ 10:07 AM
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pr0ton stated:



Perhaps in God's eye that's OK. As for us moral people, we VALUE life. Punishment should never have to be extinguishing another's life. NEVER.


You claim that you "value" life and that you are also "moral" yet you cannot explain to us where you get that value or those morals.

Also, God states clearly many times over how life is to be valued and that people are not to murder, steal, lie, cheat, covet etc. You ignore this for you are not a Believer.

pr0ton stated:




You are also commanded to stone your children. Look it up!


Perhaps you are the one who needs to look it up. Read that within the context and also study up a bit on the Levitical Law and WHO is able to carry out a death sentance and who is not.

Critics wish to isolate a passage from Scripture, build a strawman arguement based on it then easily knock it over and claim victory. Yet they would not do this with something as basic as assembly instructions for a new hi-fi entertainment system. They would read line for line within the context that a sentance is found. They follow the step-by-step instructions for they do not wish to incorrectly assemble it.

If you wish to be a Biblical critic then at least....at least.... do a bit of research before making these claims. To not do so shows you to be ignorant.



posted on Aug, 20 2006 @ 02:34 PM
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Originally posted by UnrealZA
Perhaps you are the one who needs to look it up. Read that within the context and also study up a bit on the Levitical Law and WHO is able to carry out a death sentance and who is not.

Having no interest in levitical law can you tell me why anyone should be able to carry out a death sentence. Also why does someone have the right to give out a death sentence for someone else to carry out.
Dont get me wrong some people deserve to die and I for one would quite happily throw a switch, press a button but under exeptional circumstances only.


G



posted on Aug, 20 2006 @ 07:18 PM
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Originally posted by shihulud

Originally posted by UnrealZA
Perhaps you are the one who needs to look it up. Read that within the context and also study up a bit on the Levitical Law and WHO is able to carry out a death sentance and who is not.

Having no interest in levitical law can you tell me why anyone should be able to carry out a death sentence. Also why does someone have the right to give out a death sentence for someone else to carry out.
Dont get me wrong some people deserve to die and I for one would quite happily throw a switch, press a button but under exeptional circumstances only.


G


Fair question. I hope to respond intelligently.

In a nutshell you answered your own question by your last statement.

"but under exeptional circumstances only."

God declared that since we are created in His image no one has the right to murder another human. God is the giver and taker and He alone for His will is perfect.

Knowing the hearts of men, that they are evil, God gave Israel the Law in that if one person takes the life of another they must pay with their life.

"An eye for an eye" is a law set to HINDER revenge, not promote it. It means that if a farmer steals your sheep you are not allowed to take 2 sheep plus set his barn on fire. The Law also states that only the JUDGES can do this. God gave His people JUDGES to carry out punishments. The people were to never usurp this and take the law into their own hands and this was only after a trial. We have laws for the reasons of order and safe being. If one breaks those laws they are then a danger to society and must be dealt with. In Biblical times these types would be "excommunicated" or "cast out" from their people. They would have no home, no people and this was for most a fate worse than death.

Hope that helps



posted on Aug, 20 2006 @ 08:34 PM
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You claim that you "value" life and that you are also "moral" yet you cannot explain to us where you get that value or those morals.


I'm sorry, silly me thought common sense might have something to do with it. Your right, people ARE incapable of thinking for themselve's and need an almighty god to tell them what is right and wrong.



Also, God states clearly many times over how life is to be valued and that people are not to murder, steal, lie, cheat, covet etc. You ignore this for you are not a Believer.


Wow. Just wow. Lead by example my friend. Lead by example. Next time you pray, include that into your prayers.



Perhaps you are the one who needs to look it up. Read that within the context and also study up a bit on the Levitical Law and WHO is able to carry out a death sentance and who is not.


Your right, I'm sorry. Deuteronomy 21:21 'All the men of the town must then stone him to death. You must banish this evil from among you.'



If you wish to be a Biblical critic then at least....at least.... do a bit of research before making these claims. To not do so shows you to be ignorant.


Heh. I have done my research. I'm not blinded by faith and am able to see the many contradictions within the bible. Like the eight ways to get into heaven. Making it pretty damn impossible to achieve. But no, I'm the ignorant one despite some people who will sit there and claim that human sacrifice isn't in the bible.




"An eye for an eye" is a law set to HINDER revenge, not promote it. It means that if a farmer steals your sheep you are not allowed to take 2 sheep plus set his barn on fire. The Law also states that only the JUDGES can do this. God gave His people JUDGES to carry out punishments. The people were to never usurp this and take the law into their own hands and this was only after a trial. We have laws for the reasons of order and safe being. If one breaks those laws they are then a danger to society and must be dealt with. In Biblical times these types would be "excommunicated" or "cast out" from their people. They would have no home, no people and this was for most a fate worse than death.


What was Galileo's crime? What was his eye for an eye? What were the Jews crime? Etc Etc Etc. The list could go on forever, literally. Christianity is the leading most hypocritical belief system on this planet. IF there is a god, you can bet your sweet buttocks that hipochristians are not on the top of his loved list.




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