stans: I grew up in the US and have US citizenship, I voted for Michael Badnarik last election. I'm not just some dude from Belgium.

NATO is made up of 26 country's, including, the US and UK.
Thing is, the US and thanks to that, also the UK, who choose to be NATO members, prefers to stonewall, sabotage and be nothing but a disturbance to the workings of NATO, the concept behind NATO is sound, but as any team, it can only function if its teammembers play together and not against eachother, same goes for the UN.

And where the hell do you get the idea Western and Eastern European nations, the UK, US and Scandinavian nations wouldn't defend their own country's?

You have some backward idea of all our histories, politics and very cultures it seems?

The European nations fight when they need to fight, but don't make any war if not nessecary. War isn't a game or something to make profit from, its a hard painfull dreadfull thing noone should have to go trough.

The people in the european nations know how it feels to live in a worldclass warzone for decades, which gives them a maturity over the US that the US as a country won't ever have without going trough the same # itself for a change.

Belgium for instance has been fighting for their land from before the times of Julius Caesar, a man who on the record stated that the Belgians were the bravest of all the Kelts.

They were taken over and overwelmed troughout the ages by all sorts of forces, but hey, guess what, the empires and forces that overtook the country are long since forgotten, but Belgium still exists and even regained its full sovereignty in 1830 and is now, both socialy and economicaly one of the most advanced nations on the planet.

Anyways, anyone who thinks Israel is 100% right going about this the way they are is no better then they are imho.
You seek any excuse you can to kill those civilians.

I'm still kinda wondering whats being done about finding those 2 soldiers. Their parents were on tele over here in Europe asking the same thing 'Why is our goverment (Israel) not trying to find our 2 sons? Why are they killing all these people?'

Guess what dude, the american people are at fault for electing George Bush Senior, Carter and Reagan, subsequently being guilty of creating al-Quada to fight the Russians, so the people who voted these guys into office and their children and grandchildren should all be massacred too for the murder of 3000 people on 9/11/2001.
Your backward logic makes me sick.

As an american I'm ashamed to have people like you in my country. As a Belgian, I'm insulted by your ignorance.

[edit on 31/7/06 by thematrix]

Another American who blames America first. You have a limited view of Europe's decision to fight or not to fight. Perhaps the reason France (just an example) didn't help out in Iraq is not because they are so moral, mature, and superior but because some of their elected leaders were profiting from the Iraqi food for oil deal! Americans like you make me sick. Always willing to give the benefit of the doubt to any country other than your own. I know who makes up NATO and I know who does the stonewalling and it's not America buddy. I also know the countries who have helped us out in Iraq are chastised by the rest of Europe, the UK especially.

I never said that Israel was 100% right but Lebanon isn't 100% victim either. Congrats, you are the terrorists new best friend. And you even tried (but missed completely) to tie in 9/11. Next time get your thoughts together and don't write when you are so angry, man you were all over the place!

As far as your vote? It was wasted and probably helped re-elect GWB! Good thinking!

The 9/11 reference was an example following your logic with the "guilt" of Lebanees civilians to show how backward that logic really is.
I didn't try to ty it in, its sarcasme using a close to home example.

And France isn't Europe. Because some French politicians are complicit of doing unkosher dealings with Iraq doesn't mean the rest of Europe is too.

I'm rather certain that Belgium and Holland didn't go to Iraq because the People told their goverments there was no bloody way they'd allow it.

So, because I think Israel is wrong indiscriminantly killing civilians by the 100's instead of going after the 2000 people they are actualy after and because I think the actions of the current US administration and the one before that and before that are deplorable, without honnor and plain simply treason to the people the of the United States of America, I'm a traitor?

And, I voted for Badnarik because his party and his person are what I think is the losest to the direction the US should be taking.

Voting for either Bush or Kerry just so that one of them wouldn't get elected would be betraying myself, the voting system and my country, because its our duty to vote for what you believe in, not for whats the lesser of 2 evils.

I'm a traitor?

I never said you were a traitor. Frequent use of a word like that takes away it's meaning. I'll save my "traitor" calling for the real traitors. Free speech is free speech even if I disagree with it, and boy do I disagree with you! I do believe you are at the least misguided and at the most so blinded by your dislike of our own administration that you are unable to argue your point.

You 9/11 scenario followed no logic, not even backwards logic as you put it. Who was in the twin towers when the planes hit? Who was around the area? Did Dick Cheney have a secret office there? Does Karl Rove do business there, did the joint chiefs hang out there? Why hit the twin towers? It was an INTERNATIONAL place of business.

Israel, warned people to get out. They were attacked first. Lebanon should get rid of hezbollah now. War is ugly, Lebanon started it. Don't be mad because Israel is better and stronger, they are trying to protect their own children. Are Israeli children worth less than Lebanese children?

And by not voting for a viable candidate you did help re-elect GWB. Which is fine with me. It's nice to vote your conscience but where did it get you?

Originally posted by UM_Gazz

Originally posted by DontTreadOnMe

Originally posted by UM_Gazz
I truly believe that Israeli military commanders, and advisers are calling for the annihilation of their enemies at any cost.

And isn't that exactly what Hezbollah is saying about Israel?

Of course, good point.

However, Hezbollah hardly has the weaponry to annihilate Israel. But there is "potential" that this tragic violence could win Hezbollah more "legitimate" support from Arab/Muslim nations in the region, Ironically making Hezbollah far more dangerous to Israel in the future.

I hope I am wrong.

Agreed.

But.
Are we forgetting all the suicide bombers that went off in Israel over the years, many attributed to Hamas or Hezbollah?
Seems to me we're forgetting all the deaths Israel has endured throughout this turmoil at the hands of these terrorists.

And trust me, I am no fan of either side

DontTreadOnMe

That is the problem Israel will always be target to the rest of the middle east nations that do not want them in the land that they see as to be occupied by them.

They will never give credit to Israel for its Nation status and Israel will never gain the respect of the Arabs nations. . .

I see all this as a no win situation but fueled by religious views and faith.

Israel will always have attacks from the neighboring countries and it will always be plenty of martyrs to die killing them . . .

A no win situation . . . actually the peace in the middle east will not come from eliminating Israel like some Arabs countries want but from the annihilation of the entire middle east Arabs countries so Israel can survive . . .

For what we can see US will be more than happy with a war in the entire region with its support of Israel into not negotiating with Terrorist countries

The problem is that the entire middle east with their muslin and Islamic members and faith against Israel are seen as terrorist and most countries as terrorist supporter states

Complicated? tell me about it. . .

Originally posted by DontTreadOnMe
But.
Are we forgetting all the suicide bombers that went off in Israel over the years, many attributed to Hamas or Hezbollah?
Seems to me we're forgetting all the deaths Israel has endured throughout this turmoil at the hands of these terrorists.

Not at all, I have seen enough terrorist attacks on Israelis over this life of mine to understand why the Israelis feel like their only way out of it, is the annihilation of their enemies.

But can they really kill them all?

Perhaps children are legitimate targets.



Or maybe just the ones wearing the uniforms of Hezbollah?

I am wondering where the future goes from here DTOM.

Are the Israelis going to be more safe and secure as a result of this current military action?

Or are they just creating more support among Arabs/Muslims for Hezbollah?

I can't see the future, but no matter how you try to look at it ... it's not very good.



Gazz

[edit on 31-7-2006 by UM_Gazz]

Yeah, I agree it doesn't look promising.
This region of the world seems to be more volatile that most other places on earth. And, it's been this way for thousands of years.
I don't know if it's religious fervor or what, but it is certainly sad.

And, to make matters worse, other countries and MSM fuel the fire.

Originally posted by DeadEagle
Now, could you post the funny little .jpg file of when the Philistines stole the land from the Israelites.

That is not possible. Before certain jews started to immigrate (they were illegal aliens) into palestine the palestinians were generally the only people there.

2000 years ago the jews were as aggresive against their neighbors as today. They lost all their wars until Judea was at last destroyed by Rome. Some of the survivors moved to Spain/Portugal, becoming the sephardic jew. The people left in their homeland converted to either christianity or islam over the centuries, and it is these people we now call palestinians. The palestinians, the sephardic and the mizrahi are all semittic people. The Ashkenazi that make up 95% of the jews today are not a semittic people but are europeans of ukranian blood. That they follow a certain faith does not make them semites, and they therefore have no legal claims of any land in palestina.

Its the same situation in US today; alot of illegal immigrants from Mexico. A few of them would not be a problem, but 40 million is. They could easily take over some of the southern states and claim it is part of Mexico. That is how the ashkenazi got control of the land in Palestine so the mexicans can do the same.

Israel have many times called for the jews of the world to move there, so why do they refuse to do so? If the jews of EU and US really are harrassed by anti-jews why does they not move to Israel? Because there is no hatred for jews in the west. And the jews are waiting for their messiah. The one who will lead them to their Judea. Israel is considered an illegal land by the jews, except for the zionistsand a few other gullible jews. The real jewish land is supposed to be named Judea not Israel.

Well put that man. No matter how the Israelis try to cover it up the one indesputable truth always remains.....the glaringly obvious

It is only the dominant religion that has ever changed in Palestine. Jesus (if he even existed) would have looked like all the peoples of the middle east, and not a white european jew

All with eyes could see the creation of Israel would mean the "removal" of Arabs from the land.

A touch of Irony to complete the story arc - experience a holocaust and then facilitate one

Hopefully some good will come of this war - people will see that religion is an outdated concept and relegate it to the sidelines.....eventually to dispense with forever

Both sides are right in ways and both sides are wrong.
It seems like the only way to end the conflict is to blow both sides back to the Stone Age. And, at the rate they are going.....

For the life of me, I cannot see why there should be a Jewish homeland.
There is no Catholic homeland, Lutheran homeland, Shinto homeland or pagan homeland.
Religion is not for nation building, imho.

What were they thinking when they set the borders after WWII

When the Israelites were scattered by the Romans they married people in European countries just like Israel's son's and grandsons probably married Egyptian women while they were in Egypt. Israel is not a land for those that practice Judaism. It's a land for the descendants of Jacob (Israel). That's why the land is named after the grandson of Abraham. If you can trace your ancestry back to Israel, then you are an Israelite. You don't have to practice Judaism to belong to this group.

Originally posted by DontTreadOnMe
For the life of me, I cannot see why there should be a Jewish homeland.
There is no Catholic homeland, Lutheran homeland, Shinto homeland or pagan homeland.

Ah Ha!, but the Mormons have Utah, and no one is complaining.

The Israelis have (in my opinion) as much right to be where they are as the Palestinians do... Then again.. that is the whole problem.

Too many people, too little land. as populations in the region continue to grow, so will these "spasms" of violence. Until one day nuclear weapons are actually used. Then the population problem will be gone. What then?

Who knows!

The Vatican is a country within a country. They have their own army and everything.


Pie

Whats all this about "Why arent the religious stopping this?"
The way I see it, religion is fueling most of what is going on.
If anyone is to stop it, it would be an atheist.
Atheists dont believe in killing for a greater purpose, and we sure arent going to get rewarded or punished for anything we do after we die.
To an atheist, this life is the one chance you have, thats it, thats all. Better make it a good one.

Originally posted by Ghaele

Originally posted by DeadEagle
Now, could you post the funny little .jpg file of when the Philistines stole the land from the Israelites.

That is not possible. Before certain jews started to immigrate (they were illegal aliens) into palestine the palestinians were generally the only people there.

2000 years ago the jews were as aggresive against their neighbors as today. They lost all their wars until Judea was at last destroyed by Rome. Some of the survivors moved to Spain/Portugal, becoming the sephardic jew. The people left in their homeland converted to either christianity or islam over the centuries, and it is these people we now call palestinians. The palestinians, the sephardic and the mizrahi are all semittic people. The Ashkenazi that make up 95% of the jews today are not a semittic people but are europeans of ukranian blood. That they follow a certain faith does not make them semites, and they therefore have no legal claims of any land in palestina.

Its the same situation in US today; alot of illegal immigrants from Mexico. A few of them would not be a problem, but 40 million is. They could easily take over some of the southern states and claim it is part of Mexico. That is how the ashkenazi got control of the land in Palestine so the mexicans can do the same.

Israel have many times called for the jews of the world to move there, so why do they refuse to do so? If the jews of EU and US really are harrassed by anti-jews why does they not move to Israel? Because there is no hatred for jews in the west. And the jews are waiting for their messiah. The one who will lead them to their Judea. Israel is considered an illegal land by the jews, except for the zionistsand a few other gullible jews. The real jewish land is supposed to be named Judea not Israel.

Thanks.

Surrender noted, Ghaele.

"Palestinian people" do not exist. That is not a typo. They are a figment of your imagination. A product of propoganda.

When the mighty Roman Empire walzed into the Kingdoms of Israel and Judah, they sent those who didn't convert to Christianity to southern Russia, Ukraine and Kazahkstan. Banished them from the land. Now, they have returned and have laid claim to the land.