Israel "Ignored" UN Troops Pleas To Stop Firing So Close To Them

Originally posted by hogtiemissed_gear,

Thank you for the compliment…

Imho, there is much, much more going on (and has been) for quite some time.

mg

Originally posted by ZeddicusZulZorander
What hateful retoric? He doesn't like the UN? God forbid.

He's reveling in the deaths of 4 UN peace keepers. If some one posted the same about Israeli civilians dying im sure you'd think that crosses the line, no? How about reveling in the deaths of American civilians? Im sure any reasonable person would be right in seeing that as hateful rhetoric.

By the way, are you still assuming that I said anything in the slightest that condoned the abuse he copped for what he said? If so please quote me.

Originally posted by ZeddicusZulZorander
2) Behavior: You will not behave in an abusive and/or hateful manner, and will not harass, threaten, nor attack anyone.

There was no harrassing, threats, or attacks except at the poster. There was no abuse or hateful behavior. I don't actually see "hateful opinion" there myself.

So hateful behavior does not mean hateful opinion? So what other behaviour can you partake in on a message board? Does the T&C stop you from flipping the bird at some one from your computer chair? Or giving the Nazi salute in the same fashion? How about the behaviour of body language or tone of voice? Do they come into the realm of the T&C?

Im pretty sure, but correct me if I am wrong given that im a lowly FSME who should know better, that the only behaviour one can express on a messageboard is of the written variety.

[edit on 26/7/06 by subz]

Originally posted by subz
He's reveling in the deaths of 4 UN peace keepers. If some one posted the same about Israeli civilians dying im sure you'd think that crosses the line, no? How about reveling in the deaths of American civilians? Im sure any reasonable person would be right in seeing that as hateful rhetoric.

First, reveling might entail comments such as "I'm glad they're dead" or some such.

Originally posted by subz
By the way, are you still assuming that I said anything in the slightest that condoned the abuse he copped for what he said? If so please quote me.

Second, you are correct and I can certainly admit that you did not. If I made such an implication (since it was hours ago) then I also admit that would have been incorrect on my part.

Third, let's take this thread back on the topic.

I understand politics gets heated with emotion, but there was a reason I addressed the insults and not the comment. I've explained why enough. I don't agree with that comment, but there was no reason to read more into it then was there.

Now, again...I apologize. Bring back the real discussion so I can learn something will you?

Originally posted by ZeddicusZulZorander
Second, you are correct and I can certainly admit that you did not. If I made such an implication (since it was hours ago) then I also admit that would have been incorrect on my part.

Third, let's take this thread back on the topic.

Gladly! And I really appreciate the acknowledgment that I did not agree with the abuse that member received

Meanwhile, Back In Lebanon...

All right you two scamps, glad to see that settled.

Now, *cough* did Israel bomb that U.N. outpost on purpose or not?

Enquiring minds want to know.

Well Majic im not going to hold my breath for the Israeli internal investigation

Given that the UN troops repeatedly, and frequently, informed the IDF that their shells and air strikes were coming increasingly close to their position I dont think Israel can claim they did know the UN position was there.

Given that the munition that eventually struck the UN observation post is reported to be a precision-guided missile I dont think Israel can claim it was an accident.

Given that Israel continued to shell the UN observation post when UN rescue teams were trying to rescue the injured UNFIL observers I dont think Israel can claim it was a freak, one off occurance.

Given that Israel is investigating itself I dont think Israel will admit any liability whatsoever.

I read in The Australian newspaper this morning that if the UN does not believe Israel fully investigated the matter it can be refered to the Internation Criminal Court and pursued as a War Crime by the UN. Does Israel even accept compulsory jurisdiction of the ICC? They shun more international impositions than the United States, and thats saying something

I know there is a lag in communication at times and it certainly isn't better when multiple countries are involved. At times, despite this modern age...buracracy can run slow.

Anyway, I do wonder if the front line troops didn't get the info in time. Just a thought.

Hogwash. The useless UN has no business being there anyway. Israel is bombing the crap out of Lebanon, look out or you'll get hit! Where was the UN when the terrorists were digging in and planning all the rocket strikes on Israel??

I am so sick and tired or hearing about how Israel is using too much force - this is WAR - and they are defending their country, it's about time they went in and crushed Hezbollah. Citizens of Lebanon, wake-up, you have been harboring terrorists, get out of there or you'll get hit by a stray bullet or bomb!

Heck, come to America, you'll get free medical care even if you're illegal!

Well i cant see a good arguement on the side that it was a acciedent, at the moment the facts are looking towards a intentional attack but it can not be confirmed.
While the people defending Israel in this thread just seem to be putting the U.N. down. Yes the U.N. is not perfect and it hasnt helped in every crisis there has been , but the U.N. does also alot of good in the world aswell that you all forget to mention. These U.N. soldiers who have died in lebanon deserve better, they were jsut doing their jobs and were not meant to be killed, if it was intentional it should be investigated as vigoursly as any other U.N. soldiers murders.

Originally posted by wang
Well i cant see a good arguement on the side that it was a acciedent, at the moment the facts are looking towards a intentional attack but it can not be confirmed.

I haven't said a thing about the UN myself. It's the "facts" that I'm missing. We have some reports that it happened, there were communications between the UN and Israel, and that it was a precision missle.

We know it happened, but the intent hasn't been proven. There might have been communication issues, intelligence issues, and simple mapping/grid foul-ups. In an army those are a given, and with it being two armies (UN and Israel) the chances magnify.

Intent can only come with a complete investigation of the entire matter.

I agree that there is always a chance of accident. However I dont think a communications lag could be a mitigating factor given that the UN was conversing directly with the IDF for 6 hours prior to being hit with the missile.

Also the Israeli forces continued to shell the site where the UN observation post once stood which endangered the UN rescue team sent to help the injured UNFIL observers. Surely Israel is capable of even a moderate amount of precision in their bombing? Correct me if I am wrong but arent precision guided missiles either targetted with infra-red target painting or GPS coordinates that are accurate to within feet?

You'd have to put it into context of the other events that have occured between Israel and UN forces. Israel hit a well established and clearly marked UN observation post just days before this incident. Also Israel has killed UN troops in Lebanon a some years back in 2000. Israel also fired on, and killed, UN troops from Nigeria in the second Israeli invasion of Lebanon.

In contrast there are no reports of Hezbollah having killed UN troops with their reportedly indiscriminate and blind firing of Katyusha missiles by the thousands. Surely the law of averages would suggest that Hezbollah should of hit and killed UN troops who are placed on the Lebanese/Israeli border with their missiles.

Originally posted by ZeddicusZulZorander
I haven't said a thing about the UN myself. It's the "facts" that I'm missing. We have some reports that it happened, there were communications between the UN and Israel, and that it was a precision missle.

We know it happened, but the intent hasn't been proven. There might have been communication issues, intelligence issues, and simple mapping/grid foul-ups. In an army those are a given, and with it being two armies (UN and Israel) the chances magnify.

Intent can only come with a complete investigation of the entire matter.

Never said you had said anything agaisnt the U.N., i just thought most of your posts were between you and subz about personal attacks.

The double standard i find is that it was hezbollah that had killed 4 U.N. soldiers we would not question their intent, but they would be fould guilty without question. Yet when it comes to the IDF its communication issues, intelligence isssues. Israel is innocent befor proven guilty, and i condone that. As i said befor i would not say its confirmed that it was intentional, but at the moment it looks like it was. A complete un-biased investigation on the matter should be taken place.

I think what we are going to find is the UN backing off over the next few days, intel is starting to emerge that the bombing took place following a rocket attack.

Australia announced today that it is pulling their peacekeepers. It should be noted, that this morning, it is reported that Australian peacekeepers in Lebanon report that Hezbollah is firing katushya rockets from positions next to UN compounds in attempts to avoid being struck by an Israeli air strike. Ireland and India are reporting the same, and is considering pulling their peacekeepers.

There is also speculation that the reason the USS Trenton raced from the Indian Ocean to the Med at flank speed was to get the Scan Eagle over the battle field. The Scan Eagle UAV, operated by the US Marines, has a high quality digital color camara with increadible capability to zoom and get close shots on the ground. The US is supposedly gathering high quality video intel that could be presented in one of those "UN briefing moments" the world saw during the Cuba Missile Crisis, and most recently by Colin Powell before the Iraq War.

I'm going to wait for the investigation, but with reports by UN peacekeepers coming in that both Hezbollah and the IDF are infiltrating UN positions on the ground, I think there is more to this story.

darksided, on the surface your alternate account of the situation seems very plausible. But in light of some of the known facts about this occurence I would have to conclude it is a clever attempt at spin.

If Hezbollah had set up shop right next to the UN observation post one would logically think the following:

a) Israel would protest loudly to the UN about such behaviour before launching an attack
b) The UN observation post would report the close proximity of Hezbollah militants and demand they withdraw
c) The reports state that Israel's fire progressively got nearer and nearer to the UN observation post. If Hezbollah was right next to the UN observation post why was the fire not instantly upon the UN observation post?
d) There are no reports that Israel informed the UN observation post of the proximity of Hezbollah militants to their location. If that was the case should it not of been reasonable to request the UNFIL troops evacuate their position prior to it being hit with a missile?
e) Why did Israel say the firing would cease on every conversation held between the UNFIL troops and the IDF? Why lie?

Why did it take six hours for the IDF to hit the location of the Hezbollah militants? Are we to believe that there was a line of Hezbollah militants leading up to the UN observation post and that Israel was tracking/strafing their position and ultimately landing upon the UN observation post?

Wow.:shk:

The Israel worship at this place is truly getting out of control. I really don't care for the UN, but the fact that the rabid Israelis bombed them is almost as bad as the people here making excuses for them.

Are y'all seriously wondering if this was intentional? They called the Israelis MUTLIPLE times, and the Israelis said they would STOP! Jesus effin Christ...

The terrorist Israelis could start bombing our forces (AGAIN) and their (paid?) worshippers here would still make excuses for them...:shk:

Originally posted by subz

If Hezbollah had set up shop right next to the UN observation post one would logically think the following:

a) Israel would protest loudly to the UN about such behaviour before launching an attack
b) The UN observation post would report the close proximity of Hezbollah militants and demand they withdraw
c) The reports state that Israel's fire progressively got nearer and nearer to the UN observation post. If Hezbollah was right next to the UN observation post why was the fire not instantly upon the UN observation post?
d) There are no reports that Israel informed the UN observation post of the proximity of Hezbollah militants to their location. If that was the case should it not of been reasonable to request the UNFIL troops evacuate their position prior to it being hit with a missile?
e) Why did Israel say the firing would cease on every conversation held between the UNFIL troops and the IDF? Why lie?

I don't think I have all the answers, but I will give a good try.

A) Really? At what point did Israel get taken seriously at the UN? Lets face it, Israel loathes the UN, they are the only country who is barred from the UN Security Council because they are barred from serving on a regional committee, apparently, the rest of the Mid East doesn't like Israel. If any protest takes place, it will be by the US for Israel, and I think Bush is too weak to do that right now due to Iraq.

B) Uhm, the UN observation post may not have had a chance to report it at that time. I imagine if a bunch of Hezbollah run up to your position with rifles and rockets, start shooting at Israel, the last thing they will let you do is talk about it while they are there.

C) Actually, as I read the reports, Ireland's senior soldier in Lebanon, Lt. Col. John Molloy, had phoned his Israeli Defense Forces counterpart "on six occasions immediately before the obliteration of this observation post." That is one of many examples of attempts to tell the IDF to stand down on that outpost.

I think it is interesting that after Ireland made some of the most noise, presumably discussing the issue with Israel, they backed off pretty quick and began re-evaluating whether their peacekeepers would stay on the line.

D) Israel doesn't have to tell people they are about to get bombed. From all the sources I have available, Israel is using their older F-16C/Ds with mostly Laser Guided Bombs, the 500lb variety, in this war along the border. All the GPS stuff is being deployed North. That tells me you have soldier on the ground painting a target with a laser, or UAV in the air doing the same. Bomb goes to where laser is pointing. If a rocket launched from that position, laser would paint the target and bomb would hit it.

E) Because while there are laws of war, when the shooting starts the only law that applies is Murphey's Law. From what I have seen the IDF is getting beaten down like a wet puppy, they look disorganized and tactically challanged unlike they have ever been, at least in my lifetime. I think the investigation will show confusion and a general clusterffffff is taking place within the IDF right now, because I think they expected to route Hezbollah, and now they are in the toughest fight they have seen since the 7 days war.

After all, Israel has to stop those rocket attacks to win, all Hezbollah has to do to win is keep the rocket attacks going until the cease fire takes place. Today, more rockets hit Israel than any day in the last 7. Israel is clearly losing not only on the battlefield, but on the propaganda front too.

Our expectations that the Israeli Army is organized, mythotical, and calculating might be an unreasonable expectation by us, based on past performance against militant Hamas who shoot 45s and throw rocks. The evidence says Israel is not any of those things right now, and when an Army loses organization, it gets sloppy.

Originally posted by darksided
I don't think I have all the answers, but I will give a good try.

Ah I should clarify that I didnt mean you were spinning anything darksided. Im saying that the reports you are basing your interpretation on are.

Courtesy Is Mandatory

Originally posted by truthseeka
The terrorist Israelis could start bombing our forces (AGAIN) and their (paid?) worshippers here would still make excuses for them...:shk:

Please read the link I provided above.

Comments about members instead of their opinions are off-topic.

Please stay on topic.

Meanwhile...

I am seeing some excellent posts in this thread, and am applauding them accordingly.

As things stand, I have had the pleasure of reading some very thoughtful opinions and persuasive arguments from different points of view.

That's what I live for, and I encourage members to do their best to contribute reason and insight to this debate.

And now we continue the quest to determine why Israel killed four U.N. observers recently.

Perhaps the "accidental" destruction of the UN observation post was a carefully planned move on the part of Israel. It has certainly scotched any ideas about the UN putting a force in place and leaves that particular area, close to the Syrian border, unobserved by UN personnel. Convenient?

They bombed an UN observation post with a guided missile and thats that.

IMO we need to get a U.N peacekeeping force in there asap,preceded by a resolution calling on both forces to cease fire immediately.

Any attack on anybody will be severely dealt with by the peacekeeping force.
This stupidity must stop now.

My nominees for the PKF are as follows:

1). China(though they never send any UNPKF contingents )

2). India (Neutral country havieng decent relations with both sides and having a considerable UN force)

3). France (same as India)

4). US (Israel will be pacified)

Israel needs to be controlled by a stronger force and Hezbollah needs to be eradicated at a grass-roots level by the UN.


And if it was intentional?? God I have faith it wasn't, and certainly hope so..

Because if it was, then it was a act of terror. No way around it.


[edit on 27-7-2006 by Daedalus3]