F-22 Raptor

post
this post was originally rejected because this is my first post here and just wanted to test.....there may be a test forum....I'll look

[Edited on 11-2-2003 by MGXX]

[Edited on 11-2-2003 by MGXX]

Way too expensive.it makes you wonder what threats they think or know that they might be up against??

The official number the Air Force can afford is 276 but right now commanders are trying to get that number up to 381.

What they need now is a stealth refueling craft

Why?
tankers don't penetrate enemy controlled airspace, they sit outside it, out of harms way, putting stealth on a tanker is not only useless but would do more harm than good. fighter pilots use radar to find the tanker, and get info on speed, altitude and closeure rates with the tanker, in all different types of weather.

Originally posted by Pearly

What they need now is a stealth refueling craft

... putting stealth on a tanker is not only useless but would do more harm than good. fighter pilots use radar to find the tanker, and get info on speed, altitude and closeure rates with the tanker, in all different types of weather.

I agree with you that stealth on a tanker is not a great concern - at least for now...

But it really would not matter to the fighter jocks if the tanker was stealth or not - all it takes is a rather inexpensive (comparatively) avionics beacon broadcasting a faux-radar signal with all the details the fighter crew needs to "see"...
And after those thirsty Raptors get their fill the tanker pilot would just turn off the beacon and go back to lurking in the shadows...

intelgurl

The F-22 is now being adapted as a duel role fighter. I read in a Popular Science artical that the aircraft is going to be redesignated as the F/A-22 Raptor. I was originally very skeptical of the F-22 design and the F-22 program, but now I'm beginning to think I may have been too quick to judge it in previous posts.

The F-22 unusual comibnation of stealth, speed and agility, may make it one of the best fighters yet. I think we should fallow this program. But history has showen us that the Lockheed Skunkwork can build some increadible plane( F-104 Starfighter, U-2, A-12/SR-71 Blackbird,) Let's sit back and let history decide if the F-22 will be remembered as one of history's Great Planes!

Tim

i heard that the f-22 is supposed to replace the f-15 by 2005 or somethin like that, but i dont know for sure

btw, i think i found that out at airforce.com

This is an old article but speaks volumes, even today:
"F-22 Raptor: Myth vs. Fact"
Aug. 4, 1999
Link:
www.af.mil...

Another old article but informative enough:
"Who Needs the F-22?
The US Air Force does. Here's why."
April 1995
Link:
www.afa.org...

"United States Air Force Aircrafts"
Link:
preflite.tripod.com...


All-in-all, the F-15 will be phased out......slowly however.
The F-15 later models are still exceptional aircraft for a variety of air-combat and air-surface roles.


regards
seekerof

The F-15 is an ageing aircraft, aye, but the F-22 is herself is still about fifteen years old (depending on when you date your aircraft's "birthday"). These new aircraft seem to take forever to develop, and it looks like the trend is set to continue!

F-22's stealth ability:

"How large the F-22 Raptor appears on radar is classified and depends on the quality of the radar. However, it can be said that the F-22 doesn't appear on even the most sophisticated radar systems until it is almost too late to shoot. "You might get your sights up and maybe get a shot, or maybe not, because that...(Raptor) is "ZOOM!" right through your field of view..." then it disappears off the screen.
Dick Mather, Lockheed-Martin



Intelgurl's Personal conversation with 3 Defense Industry employees:

IG: Is there anything in the known arsenals of any potential adversary that can neutralize the threat of an F-22 Raptor?
LM 1: "Suffice it to say that any AA system could theoretically be a hazard to the Raptor. That said, there are no known systems currently in anyone's inventory including our own that will instantly be able to recognize the Raptor as a threat... until it's too late... (in other words, right on top of them)
In the current electronic battlefield and into the near future, there will be operators of some of the most sophisticated radar systems who will simply never see a reflection indicating an aircraft or even a sparrow or hummingbird were in the vicinity until the Raptor is right on top of them..."

IG: Aren�t there ways or methodologies to discern between a sparrow and an aircraft?
LM 2: "...Don't expect a radar op to be able to see a 500 knot reflection the size a of a pigeon cruising overhead and thereby discern between the Raptor and a real pigeon with feathers - it just won't work like that...

Ray: "At best radar will see a blip here and a blip there but these "artifacts" aren't necessarily trackable... in other words the unit will not be able to just follow the dotted line..."

LM 1: "...mix this up with the cacophony of ECM being broadcast over a battle area and you have an extremely high survivability rate for the Raptor..."

Ray: "...my company makes radar that can pick up an F-117 and track it accurately...

LM 2: "So does your company's largest adversarial competitor..."

Ray: "Yeah... these same systems cannot accurately track a Raptor and certainly have not demonstrated an ability to lock onto one."

IG: What about an adversaries' ability to do so?
Ray: "Our industry analysts say no..."

IG: "Ray" mentioned the F-117 earlier, how does it compare with the F-22?
LM 1: "The F-117... was first generation stealth... and cannot hold a candle to what the F-22 has in store for potential adversaries..."
The above conversation was private - exclusive, and not found anywhere on web



Paul Metz on the Raptor's stealth:

Paul Metz, the first test pilot to fly the F-22 described an exercise in which the pilot of a fully updated F-15 with the latest avionics on board was told that Metz was approaching head on in an F-22. The F-15's updated radar failed to find the Raptor.
"The first time he got a read on me was visually, when I flew right over the top of him..."
Paul Metz, USAF Ret., former Lockheed-Martin Chief Test Pilot



Other items of interest on F-22's capabilities:
On Sept. 7, 1997 Paul Metz flew F-22 Raptor 01 with 2 f-16 chase planes accompanying.
"The power was so considerable that he was giving the two F-16 chase planes trouble keeping up with the climb. Metz put Raptor 01 into a series of power changes to test handling characteristics.
Around midway through the flight, Metz climbed to 20,000 ft and then retracted the landing gear, giving the aircraft its natural "clean" configuration. Once at that altitude he conducted some more engine transients, and then he landed at Dobbins after a flight lasting just over one hour. Upon climbing out of the cockpit Metz was treated to the traditional hosing down after a successful test flight."
Lockheed-Martin

*** Please note in the paragraph above that the F-22 still had its landing gear down in the climb that left the F-16's in it's dust.


Just an observers viewpoint:
It was like thunder on a sunny day when I stood in the grass near the runway at the Lockheed Martin plant and watched a Raptor take off headed for Edwards AFB to join the flock of test aircraft there. The fighter howled past us while its escort plane, an F-16, had to fire it's afterburners to keep up.
M. Klesius, National Geographic







[Edited on 11-12-2003 by intelgurl]

Wow Intelgurl you seerm to have the inside track.Great info.

O, O, O, lets not foget about the JSF project shall we?

Gotta love that "Raptor" Intelgurl.
Impressive machine 'she' is.
I have read some other comments and articles Mr. Metz has commented in....very accomplished test pilot and definitely knows the characteristics of a wide variety of aircraft.
Great to see the information you provided and your presentation was awesome.


regards
seekerof

A further bit of information:
I recently found that the F-22, along with other air superiority aircraft, was placed in the JOUST simulator to see how it and they would compare and rate.
"This system was used to comprehensively evaluate the BVR (Beyond Visual Range) performance of the Eurofighter and other aircraft against an upgraded Su-27 Flanker (comparable to an Su-35 Super Flanker and its equivalents). The studies investigated all aspect best performances from the major systems on each aircraft; avionics, structure (including RCS data), engine performance (including fuel usage), defences and man-machine interfaces. In these tests the French Rafale utilised the Matra-BAe MICA air to air missile (which is the primary AA weapon of the French airforce) while the other aircraft used the Raytheon-Hughes AMRAAM."

The results were:
"A more typical way to present this data is as a combat exchange ratio, for the Typhoon this equals 4.5:1. In other words statistically one Eurofighter would be lost for every 4.5 Su-35 fighters shot down. This compares extremely favourably to the other aircraft (see also the BVR Combat Rating table); F-16C Falcon (0.3:1), F-15C Eagle (0.8:1), F-18C Hornet (0.3:1), F-18+ (0.4:1, NB this is not the current F-18E/F which is apparently a downgraded version of the F-18+ used in the studies) and Dassault Rafale (1:1). Only the LM/Boeing F-22 Raptor bettered the Eurofighter's performance with a combat exchange ratio of 10.1:1."

Link:
www.eurofighter.starstreak.net...

And a link describing JOUST:
www.dodccrp.org...

Graph:
BVR Combat Rating
* F-22 "Raptor" 91%

* Typhoon 82%

* Rafale 50%

* F-15 43%

* F-18+ 25%

* F-18 21%

* F-16 21%




Impressive.


regards
seekerof

[Edited on 12-12-2003 by Seekerof]

Certainly very interesting... I've always wondered about the F-'s all-aspect cockpit, though. Must have been a real problem cutting down its RCS and keeping it transparent!

Seriously, though, the era of radar and missiles is draing to a close. Soon we'll be into other technologies, namely directed energy weapons and perhaps some kind of quantum detection technology, who knows?

Haven't been able to follow any threads, internet access is a problem at the mo!

I love the Rapator. I've wanted to fly one ever since i heard about it, which was only like 4 years ago, but i WILL fly one someday, at least i hope i will...

I just thought of something, if planes become more controlled by computers instead of humans, then i may only be able to fly jets for a few years, rather than the rest of my life! that sucks.... pretty soon, humans will out of harms way during a battle....but computers and machines can't always do things as good as humans b/c the human has to program it, which means that humans will always be need in battles.... .....i guess....

Originally posted by SectorGaza
F22= FRED-22 (Finacial Rediculous Economic Disaster

)

[Edited on 27-10-2003 by SectorGaza]

F22TP Don't make me go there.

Anyway... the F-22A, B, C they're all pretty magnificant... but, you know they're not the best the US has in inventory... in Public inventory, yes. But in the conspiracy inventory, no.

Any oneknow when the first Raptors will arrive at Langely? I want to know so I can grab my camera and go take pictures. There arent any b or c Versions of the F-22, tbut there are plans for a ground attack plane like the f-15e and a bomber version called tthe fb-22