Originally posted by grimreaper797
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You need to prove they were capable of making WMD and they were, AFTER the first gulf war. We already know they made them before the first gulf war, and we beat their asses. We dont need to invade every country 10 years after a war because we forgot to blow up some of their weapons..
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Grim, perhaps it is the first time that you are trying to discuss this but, if you ever did any research, part of the agreement for Saddam's regime not to break the sanctions was that they should destroy all the "old stockpiles", all the information and equipment having to do with wmd, and not make any attempts to get "new stockpiles" of wmd, nor documents, nor equipment..........

How many times do we have to go through this?...

The regime of Saddam used banned missiles against the coalition in Kuwait, there were tons of documents which dealt with wmd, which shouldn't have existed, there were centrifuge parts which were still hidden by Iraqi scientists and they were not told to destroy them. There were empty chemical warheads, which were still in boxes and were found in Iraq, you can only use empty chemical warheads to fill them up with chemicals.... There were banned missile parts which were found in several scrapyards around the world and which were in posesion of the Iraqi regime before the war started... The iraqi regime also attacked British and U.S. aircraft which were trying to stop more massacres in the northern region of Iraq done by the hands of the Iraqi regime against the Kurds in the north, and this alone was a declaration of war by the Iraqi regime, etc, etc, etc.

All of the above, and more, has been presented several times in these forums, but i guess Saddam was keeping all of those just as "mementos"...


[edit on 25-6-2006 by Muaddib]

Didn't seem like saddam was keeping them for his own sake did it? These things were old and forgotten. He didn't have them in some bunker in perfect storage waiting to be used. I guess you will blame clinton for not going there till a decade later though.

Originally posted by grimreaper797
Didn't seem like saddam was keeping them for his own sake did it? These things were old and forgotten. He didn't have them in some bunker in perfect storage waiting to be used. I guess you will blame clinton for not going there till a decade later though.

Saddam wasn't keeping them for his own sake?....

i guess they also forgot for over ten years those banned missiles they shot at the coalition in Kuwait.... Saddam forgot to tell scientists to destroy centrifuge parts essential for uranium enrichment, the tons of documents which were found and dealt with wmd, the banned missile parts, the banned empty chemical warheads some of which were still wrapped in boxes, etc, etc....

I found out one thing is for certain around here. Some people will not accept any evidence that contradicts what they "think", no matter how much evidence is found to contradict them...

Ahhh...the faith of a true believer...its touching actually.

Originally posted by grover
Ahhh...the faith of a true believer...its touching actually.

and....how exactly does that statement of yours denies the truth about this issue?...

Several members and myself have been presenting evidence for a long time which corroborates the truth that "there were wmd in Iraq and Saddam had never stopped his ambitions to get his hands on more wmd"... Yet despite every piece of evidence given people like yourself would deny all of it...so who is actually following this topic by "faith" seems to be you and other members who agree with you... I have made my conclusions time and time again, even when the president supposedly said tehre were no wmd stockpiles in Iraq, the evidence kept telling me different and i stated so.

Who is following the "party line" and basing their "opinion and conclusions on faith" appears to be the left and others who think like you.

[edit on 26-6-2006 by Muaddib]

Muaddib...Muaddib...Muaddib I have never denied that at one point Iraq had weapons of mass destruction, or that he aspired to have them again. After all Rumsfeld has the recipts. Nor do I think that anyone here has ever denied that he had them at one point either, after all he used the ones we sold him on Iran. What you fail to understand is that after the first gulf, war, punishing sanctions and crumbling economy as well as regular inspections, that was all he had left was asperations...even his own neighbors at the time of Bushes invasion did not consider him much of a threat anymore. We went to war on spurious grounds, that makes us the aggressor in this not Hussien consequently the dire situition in that country is of our own making.

Grover...Grover...Grover...as always for some reason, you and some other people become blind when evidence which contradicts what you claim is shown... You may very well believe all you want, if you want you can also believe the world is round, or flat if it is your "belief", instead of knowing the world is elliptic...

The fact of the matter is that your argument, as well as the arguments of other members who think like yourself have been proven wrong so many times it is not funny anymore when any of you come up once again with your old claims.

Continued inspections.... i can't even believe you would try to claim this..... bad economy... The only people suffering from a bad economy were the Iraqis, while Saddam kept getting richer and richer through the OOF program... which Russia, China, france and Germany among others kept using and misusing to make themselves rich while more Iraqi people died...

[edit on 26-6-2006 by Muaddib]

OKAY big guy...you know so much....then where are they? Why did the U.S. team give up? Hell Bush couldn't even find them behind his couch. And don't give that old, they shipped them out of the country ploy...as heavily mointored as Iraq was at the time, we would have known, also do'nt try and claim he didn't use them because he wanted to make us look bad because that doesn't wash either. So get your map and your Indiana Jones hat and tell us all, where are they?

Actually as I understand it, the world is kinda pear shaped, alot like me

Originally posted by grover
OKAY big guy...you know so much....then where are they? Why did the U.S. team give up? Hell Bush couldn't even find them behind his couch. And don't give that old, they shipped them out of the country ploy...as heavily mointored as Iraq was at the time, we would have known, also do'nt try and claim he didn't use them because he wanted to make us look bad because that doesn't wash either. So get your map and your Indiana Jones hat and tell us all, where are they?

Wow....so the only thing that could have happened to them is "what you think happened to them".... We, a few other members and myself, have been presenting evidence which contradicts what some people like yourself keep trying to proclaim. I have given excerpts and links to what Russian defectors have to say, but of course grover knows better and he wants all the evidence of all stockpiles of wmd now because he is grover...

Tell you what, if you can present proof that what has been presented by several members now about wmd and wmd in Iraq is not true, present it.... otherwise you are just blowing smoke and trying to deny the facts.

What a lovely evasion...I am really impressed. Talk about twisting words....I didn't know Karl Rove was taking on private pupils.

Originally posted by Muaddib

Originally posted by grover
OKAY big guy...you know so much....then where are they? Why did the U.S. team give up? Hell Bush couldn't even find them behind his couch. And don't give that old, they shipped them out of the country ploy...as heavily mointored as Iraq was at the time, we would have known, also do'nt try and claim he didn't use them because he wanted to make us look bad because that doesn't wash either. So get your map and your Indiana Jones hat and tell us all, where are they?

Wow....so the only thing that could have happened to them is "what you think happened to them".... We, a few other members and myself, have been presenting evidence which contradicts what some people like yourself keep trying to proclaim. I have given excerpts and links to what Russian defectors have to say, but of course grover knows better and he wants all the evidence of all stockpiles of wmd now because he is grover...

Tell you what, if you can present proof that what has been presented by several members now about wmd and wmd in Iraq is not true, present it.... otherwise you are just blowing smoke and trying to deny the facts.

OK Considering we had two, count em 2, heavily patrolled no fly zones that consituted half the country to the north and the south, that we had numerous spy planes and satilites focusing on it as well, had a massive military build up on its border...all matters of fact...how did they get them out of the country without being observed? Considering the volumes that were being claimed, to get them out of the country would have taken a major undertaking. As for not using them, really now what leader as bad as Hussein was, even a better one would prefer to embarrass his invaders by hiding his worst weapons as opposed to using them in the fight? Also you tend to ignore evidences that condradict you as well muaddib so of course muaddib knows better. Anything to avoid accepting the fact that your hero bush lied through his teeth to get a war he wanted. Yes there were weapons up to the first gulf war, but those type of weapons are by nature inherently unstable...what happened? Odds are Saddam was busilly getting what money he could out of the country and (probably not knowing any better, after all he was no brain surgeon) let them decay, more likely, he saw the eventual writing on the wall and was more concerned with getting his stash than keeping up the fight. Even if that is just speculation OUR OWN DAMNED GOVERNMENT ADMITTED THAT THEY DIDN'T FIND ANYTHING!!! And with all the political capital riding on it, don't you think that if they actually found anything they wouldn't be shouting it to high heavens instead of letting a handful of interenet junkies do it for them? JEZZZZ!

Originally posted by grover
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Even if that is just speculation OUR OWN DAMNED GOVERNMENT ADMITTED THAT THEY DIDN'T FIND ANYTHING!!! And with all the political capital riding on it, don't you think that if they actually found anything they wouldn't be shouting it to high heavens instead of letting a handful of interenet junkies do it for them? JEZZZZ!

The government actually said that "they have not found stockpiles of wmd"....something which people like yourself like to exagerate and proclaim means no wmd or any evidence of a wmd program has been found in Iraq.... JEZZZZ!!!!......

i have seen how reports are exagerated and how much disinformation has been used by some groups trying to claim "the United States is at fault for every damn problem happening in the world right now"... The wmd issue is one of them...

BTW, several times have proof been presented by the government but people like yourself just want to accept that Saddam had a wmd program whenever you see all the wmd stockpiles or when you see Saddam himself holding a wmd and running at you with it...and even then i am almost certain that you will claim it is all an illusion made by the U.S. government...

Tell us, what do you think it means when empty chemical missiles were found to be in possession of Saddam's regime, some of which were still in boxes?....

Tell us why is it that video cameras which were in Iraqi installations which were working on wmd in the past for some reason dissapeared and Saddam only gave permission for weapons inspectors to search some areas after having at least a week or more of advanced notice?....

The fact is grover that you, and some other members, do not like the present administration, and you will use anything and everything, even exagerating if need be to present to other members that the U.S. is the problem and that according to you the present U.S. administration committed a criminal act by going to Iraq...

No matter what evidence is put forward here you will not change your mind, because what you have in your mind is to change the present administration at all cost, even if the truth and the evidence has to be stepped on and forgotten.


[edit on 27-6-2006 by Muaddib]

debating you grows tedious...you are just as blind as you accuse me of being.

No one has even attempted to justify Saddam Hussien, certianly not me and I do not blame america for everything wrong in the world but no matter how you cut it Muaddib is we went into Iraq without provacation, we were the aggressor, it is a war of choice and G. Bush lied his way into it. A couple years ago even Paul Wolfiwitz admitted that hte only reason that hte administration went with the weapons of mass destruction claim was it was the only one that had selling points. When are you going to get it through your head many of us who are opposed to this war and have been opposed to it from the beginning are opposed to it (rightly or wrongly) on moral grounds?

i worked with a woman in hurricane relief who said her son helped guard WMDs in Iraq. she said that men in black helicopters were flying all around and told her son not to tell anyone. she claimed that the US govt didnt report the info because the weapons were from Russia and they didnt want it to harm relations with Russia. I believed her at first but the more i think about it the more i think she was blowing smoke up my hind end personally i dont think there was anything there but who knows i dont believe at all that our govt is telling the truth about anything or has our best interest in mind anymore. so who really knows.

Originally posted by Viebs
i worked with a woman in hurricane relief who said her son helped guard WMDs in Iraq. she said that men in black helicopters were flying all around and told her son not to tell anyone. she claimed that the US govt didnt report the info because the weapons were from Russia and they didnt want it to harm relations with Russia. I believed her at first but the more i think about it the more i think she was blowing smoke up my hind end personally i dont think there was anything there but who knows i dont believe at all that our govt is telling the truth about anything or has our best interest in mind anymore. so who really knows.

Actually that woman was right. The Russians put the weapons there, and the Russians helped hide as many as possible. The united States government does not want an all out war against countries like Russia and China, but both of them are working hard on fighting anyway they can the United States. one of those ways is arming those who call themselves enemies of the United States, and when the United States goes after those regimes, after the information which the Russian government itself gave the U.S. government which partially prove those regimes were/are planning on making terrorist attacks on U.S. soil, the Russian govenrment then claimed to the world that the United States comitted a crime, a claim which the liberal left is happy to go along with...because it serves their purpose...

There is so much evidence out there that proves this is the case, that I can't believe why some people would deny it until they'll die... then again, it appears some people are not interested in the truth.


[edit on 28-6-2006 by Muaddib]

And we did the exact same thing during the cold war...indeed we sold Hussien some of his nastiest weapons to use against Iran...there is plenty of blood on all hands including ours, to deny it is to wear blinders on your eyes. It is not a matter of liberal and conservative so get over it will ya.

Originally posted by grover
And we did the exact same thing during the cold war...indeed we sold Hussien some of his nastiest weapons to use against Iran...there is plenty of blood on all hands including ours, to deny it is to wear blinders on your eyes. It is not a matter of liberal and conservative so get over it will ya.

The difference is that they are supposed to be our friends now, but obviously they are not. BTW....as always you forget to mention that the united States was not the one to sell "the nastiests weapons, nor the most" to Iraq, or Iran. The Russians were owed a lot more money by Saddam's regime than they ever owed the united States, and it wasn't because Saddam was buying milk.

BTW, is it not a "matter of liberal and conservative"?... It appears that no matter what people like yourself would always claim, "it was a criminal war, the U.S. was not justified, only the president of the United States lied and he is the only one at fault, etc, etc, etc"...., when time and again you have been proven wrong....yet you don't want to see this, and instead want to be completely blinded by your "political preference" and to hell with evidence.

[edit on 28-6-2006 by Muaddib]

you probably consider ann coulter a legitimate political commentator don't you.