Red army to receive 250 new types of weaponry in 2006

Originally posted by ArcPeter
Red Army casualties in the beginning of WW2 were realy devastating, though big part of casualties came not from actual fighting but during retreat.
Alongside with Germans there were Italians, Fins, Romanians, Hungarians, some Spainish and also many Russians/Ukranians/Beloruss/Tatars who switched sides and decided to fight for Nazis cause they hated Soviet System and saw the Germans as liberators.

After 42nd Nazis vs Soviet casualties didn't differ much.

No the Germans still infilicted far more casualties than they recieved fro the Soviets. Hell they lost 50 000 men on the Seelow Heights before Berlin. Soviets mainly relied on mass, they learnt a few lessons from the Germans, but still relied on steamroller tactics.

Originally posted by northwolf
Chechens started attacking civilians post 9/11?
How about the '95 Hospital siege?

And i know that the Chechen violence atm is mainly funded and supported by Fighters from SA, Afganistan, Pakistan etc.
But the war started out as an independence struggle, and that is still the goal of Chechens who continue to fight... yes majority of chechens would like peace, but they would like to have both, peace and independence. Thus chechens are both rebels and terrorists (no arguing about the terrorism part)

On the other hand AQ wants to force someone to withdraw from somwhere they themseves have nothing to do with. (What right does a saudi OBL say israelis have to go?) Compared to chechens saying they want Russians out of their own land, big difference here.

Ps. I hate and despise both OBL and his bunch as well as Basaevs troops, but i feel obliqued to slightly support anyone who wants to break away from an opressive and terrorising country like Russia. (I've lost enough relatives when Russia attacked us '39)

PPs. Majority of the chechens voted to stay with Russia because they tought it would en violence, if the vote would have genuinely been a Independence - Remain as part of the Russia outcome might have been quite different...

Maybe you have more insight into the chechen issue than me going by your relative geographical proximity to the region as compared to me. That gives you more insight and more bias too.
But I stick to my points about Kashmir . And frankly I don't see much of a difference in the two(Chechnya and Kashmir).
Here(Kashmir) also the west didn't actively support the 'independance' of Kashmir but they regarded the movement as a freedom struggle, full well knowing that it was an independance movement being fought by foreign insurgents being trained on the other side of the border. Satellite resolution in the 90s was good enough for eh CIA to see that.The only sane thing the west did was acknowledge was that it was an internal/bilateral issue and nobody else's business.
Pakistan wanted the issue to be taken to the UN DESPERATELY.

True the chechen rebels might've been homicidal before 9/11 but that doesn't change the crux of what I said.

Countries of the likes of Russia and India have been witnessing 'terrorism' as many define it here as 'post 9/11' much before 9/11. The west has only had personal experience in the last 10-15 years.

German casualties on Eastern Front are about 3 millions plus over half million of their allys(Romanians, Hungarians) plus 200 thousands of russian switchsiders.

Soviet military casualties are about 8.5 millions where almost 2.5 millions died as POWs.

So for general fighting the casualties rate was at best 2:1 in Nazis favor.

And you have to remember that big part of soviet casualties came in 41st when german casualties were relatively low.

Originally posted by ArcPeter
Soviet military casualties are about 8.5 millions where almost 2.5 millions died as POWs.

So for general fighting the casualties rate was at best 2:1 in Nazis favor.

And you have to remember that big part of soviet casualties came in 41st when german casualties were relatively low.

LOL, what about all the German POW's Sorry bud but your stats don't make sense.

Originally posted by Daedalus3
The chechens don't want freedom. They want peace. Few understand that the majority of the rebel supply influx comes from the middle east and YES western countries.

The chechen war was a continuation of the wars they had with the russians since the 18th-20th century. The great game and the russian expanision during that time, afganistan, crimean war etc. This war started in 1991 when the chechens declared independence from russia and it goes on from there.

The difference between Chechnya and your compairison to kashmir is the chechens are fighting for an idenity while the kashmiris are fighting for their religion

full well knowing that it was an independance movement being fought by foreign insurgents being trained on the other side of the border

Like the afgan war?. Dont you class that as freedm fighters?

Also you say "foreign insurgents", Do you think the indian media says kashmiris from POK or just pakistanis?. Indian media again?

[edit on 11-7-2006 by chinawhite]

LOL, what about all the German POW's Sorry bud but your stats don't make sense.

There were no that many german POWs.
Those 3 millions are KIA/MIA.

Originally posted by Daedalus3
Countries of the likes of Russia and India have been witnessing 'terrorism' as many define it here as 'post 9/11' much before 9/11. The west has only had personal experience in the last 10-15 years.

And before 9/11 they were termed as guerillas, not terrorist. Free french force, russian guerillas, chinese cmmunist, viet cog. Most of those forces helped in the allied war effort

Originally posted by ArcPeter

LOL, what about all the German POW's Sorry bud but your stats don't make sense.

There were no that many german POWs.
Those 3 millions are KIA/MIA.

Of course there were many german POWs. There were more than 3 million in ADDITION to the casualties of 3-3.5 million people. The capitulation of the Heeresgruppe Mitte alone resulted in around 800.000 POWs.

NorthWolf

If Chechens are both Freedom fighters and Terrorists then I have to say that each and every so called "terrorists " falls into this catagory

then In your words (mind that these are not my words)
Alkaida are freedom fighters who want to "Purify" and "free" their religion from "Dirty American influence"

their killing of innocent civilians in 9/11 are now quite justified coz US has killed more innocent civilians in Iraq and afganistan and planing to kill more in Iran

what makes you diffrenciate Russia from this ?


now here is what I say
You are saying that it seems to you and many others in your community that we are "occupying" Chechnia ....Let me tell you a fact....most of the people of the rest of the world thinks that your "war against Terrorism" is an attempt to build an American/NATO Empire by "occupying"major oppositions....so just tell me how will you fell if I support those sons of bitches who attacked WTC ?

Today more people in this world will support the Russian policy than the American Policy(considering the fact that the World is not confined to America and her puppets like the west and the Baltics )


with this I ll like to copy paste one of my earlier post to clarify my points

American Hypocrisy In the war Against Terrorism

"Either you are with us or you are against us"(and there is no place to be in between)
This was the slogan of the king of a kingdom called the USA ....A country which has for decades lectured other states about someting which they call "democracy" "Rule of law" etc ......since I have to be either "with" or "against" and there is no place for someone who is "in between" ....I choosed to be an Anti- American.

I think that the Americans are doing hypocrisy in the name of "War against Terrorism " ...let me know what are your opinion ...here are my reasons :

1 USA has been backing Pakistan against India for last 10 years ...Pakistan has been sponsoring terrorists against India in Kasmir....USA has declared Pakistan as one of her "closest ally" in the War against terrorism ...now lets look what kind of record Pakistan -USA's closest ally in the war against terrorism, has:

A Pakistan has been sponsoring terrorists against India for the last 15 years ...all these terrorist units eg Laskar- e- toiba has direct links with Al Kaida and their training camps are all based on Pakistan occupied Kashmir ...there are many cities in Pakistan where Civialian openly contribute money for terrorist units like Al Kaida and Laskar e toiba.

B When Pakistan backed terrorists attacked Indian kashmir and the Kargil war broke out USA kept quite to impress their close ally ...They even warned India not to cross the LOC (international line of control) in order to drive back those terrorists

C The President of Pakistan Gen Parvez Musharaf ceased power from Pakistan's earlier democratically elected President Mr Mawaz Sharif...USA -a country which lectures Mr Putin (a person who has almost 80% civilian support in Russia ) about "authorian rule" and "decline of democracy" ..feels proud enough to shake hand with a Military General who has illegally captured power, as her "closest ally "---are these not Hypocrisy ?

2 Why do they call it war against terrorism ? it should be called war against "Islam" ....there are Maoists in India and Nepal ....LTTE in Srilanka ..they are terrorists too..they are never subject of criticism by USA ..Instead many of their weapons have "made in USA" stamps" ....only when a terrorist association has Islamic roots they are attacked ...another hypocrisy

There are lot more such examples dont have time to type them all


And yes someone said that " Kashmiris are fighting for their Religion while Chechens are fighting for their Identity"
That's what I call Ignorance: the Central idea behind creating a seperate Chechen State was creating a zone of Muslim Radicals ...and terrorism in Chechnya today is not supported by the Chechchens (Russians)..its almost entirely Funded and supported by Al Kaida , Arab Muslim Radicals and some countries "who are not happy to see Russia unexpectedly regaining her lost position fueled by booming Economic Growth and Stabilization"...just do a web research

Prelude
Did i say i approve the terror attacks?
If they fought against military i'd support them,but now? Hell No, kill 'em all...

But i don't like how Russia governs the "Rebublics" these days... Russianisation of minorities is still going on just as has been since 1905...

But Basaev for example got what he deserved.

Originally posted by prelude

Originally posted by HowlrunnerIV

Which international observers were they, the ones from Kazakhstan? Or the Belarus?

My Mother tongue is not english (and my english, specially my spellings are horrible )still as far as I know "International" includes international community including Belarus and Kazakisthan

But you missed my opportune jab, being the irony of the obviously authoritarian Belarus sending an observer mission to witness an election. Which would be almost as funny as the OSCE sending an observer mission to the US in 2004 following the 2000 farce in Florida...

But foreign journalists are not free to move around Chechnya.

Being part of an official Kremlin excursion is the only way to get in and get around

And who would have taken the responsiblity in case of any injury to the reporters....

Welcome to life as a foreign correspondent, it's dangerous "out there".

Maybe they just had not heard the widespread accounts of vote rigging, intimidation and ballot stuffing.

Our tour over, it was time to go home.

So a BBC correspondent is saying what he has "heard" and what he has been tought ...he havent given a single EVIDANCE that the elections werent "free and fair"....he havent himself seen any vote rigging,intimidation or ballot stuffing...he has just heard reumors ..and now for people like you it has become News.

As opposed to people like you? For whom it is all lies to be repudiated without examination? All right, try this, from the source...

Wherever we went, there was one face which stared down at us from walls and lamp-posts, advertising hoardings and apartment blocks: Akhmad Kadyrov.

Some of his campaign posters showed him shaking hands with Vladimir Putin - more evidence that he had received the Kremlin's backing.

There were no pictures, though, of Mr Kadyrov's three main rivals - they had all withdrawn or been removed from the ballot well in advance - making victory for the gruff, tough-talking Mr Kadyrov almost certain.

or this

I could not see anyone taking part in the ballot at all.

Still, that did not stop the local election chief boasting that the turnout was high.

"But where is everybody?" I asked, slightly puzzled.

He did not know, he said, a little embarrassed, and scurried away.

It goes on...

By now the election was beginning to look more and more like a show...

...inside - once again - there was a distinct lack of voter activity.

...Lord Judd told Chechnya Weekly that the Council of Europe does not at present plan to send official observers to Chechnya's presidential election.

That's the fault of the Council of Europe not Russia's.

Right, it's not for Russia to guarantee an election will meet standards...

Q: Who can vote?

Voters must be aged 18 and Russian citizens resident in Chechnya.


Russian servicemen permanently stationed there, put at some 34,400, can also vote.

Ofcourse since Chechnia belongs to Russia (as decided by a previous referendum )
so Chechens are "Russian Citizens resident (having thier registration ) in the republic of Chechnia"

And in your country "servicemen " are not allowed to Vote in their state of recidence ?...to which "democratic" country do you belong to?

In my country soldiers are not allowed to vote outside their electorate, just as citizens are not allowed to vote outside their electorate.

Q: Will there be monitors?

The process is overseen by the Chechen Electoral Commission.

Russia's Central Election Commission says 10 international organisations, including the Arab League and the Organisation of the Islamic Conference, are sending observers.

There will also be about 1,000 Russian monitors.

So it proves that the ELections were witnessed by international observers...what's wrong with that?

Where those observers come from. How many nations within the Arab League are multiparty democracies with a free press? How many nations which contribute to the Islamic Conference are multi-party democracies with a free press?

And for your kind information a BBC correspondent dont fall into the catagory of OFFICIAL" International Observer".They are sent by corresponding Govts...So if you have any report from any official International Observer claiming that the Election wasnt "free and fair" be kind enough to post them ...else please dont spoil my thread

Sorry, former President Jimmy Carter is not sent by the US government when he monitors elections. He is an official observer.

Chechen presidential elections 2003

BBC Correspondent

Before arguing with me go and checkup the diffrence between an "election" and "referendum"

In simple terms, an election is the choice of government. A referendum is the choice of which style. Such as the one where we recently decided to retain Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth II as our head of state.

...I was speaking of a referendum ...which gave Chechens right to choose wether to stay with Russia or not ....where Chechens decided to Stay with Russia ......you are quoting of Chechen elections that occured after the referendum went in favor of Russia.......... now I feel its baseless to argue with half educated people

I was pointing out a pattern of behaviour. If the elections you organise in Chechnya are seriously tainted, what makes your referendums any better?

[edit on 11-7-2006 by HowlrunnerIV]

Originally posted by ArcPeter

LOL, what about all the German POW's Sorry bud but your stats don't make sense.

There were no that many german POWs.
Those 3 millions are KIA/MIA.

I suggest you do a little more reading then.

Originally posted by prelude
And yes someone said that " Kashmiris are fighting for their Religion while Chechens are fighting for their Identity"
That's what I call Ignorance: the Central idea behind creating a seperate Chechen State was creating a zone of Muslim Radicals ...

Now that's what I call ignorance.

Aslan Maskhadov wanted a zone of Muslim Radicals? Get a grip and start reading.

This is the guy who was an artillery officer in the Red Army. Who served in the Lithuanian "campaign" in '91.

This is the guy who personally condemned the attack on Beslan and publicly called for Basayev to be tried for it.

He was also the guy who was elected President of Chechnya in the last election universally regarded as free and fair.

Originally posted by prelude
And yes someone said that " Kashmiris are fighting for their Religion while Chechens are fighting for their Identity"
That's what I call Ignorance: the Central idea behind creating a seperate Chechen State was creating a zone of Muslim Radicals

According to who?.

Let the ignorant present their sources aye? . They never wanted you there and they still dont want you there

Originally posted by chinawhite

Originally posted by prelude
And yes someone said that " Kashmiris are fighting for their Religion while Chechens are fighting for their Identity"
That's what I call Ignorance: the Central idea behind creating a seperate Chechen State was creating a zone of Muslim Radicals

According to who?.

Let the ignorant present their sources aye? . They never wanted you there and they still dont want you there

Atleast you dont speak of knowledge and ignorance...you represent a country that blocks the freedom of the Internet...tha's why you have nothing left apart from those baised uncreditable sources

I could have compared the situation in Tibet ...But I dont feel China deserves to be compared with Russia...so I wont...let the 99% Chinese get educated ...let all chinese know what is electricity and let the Chinese stop migrating Russian provinces to work as cheap servants in Russian cities...then i ll consider comparing China

Originally posted by HowlrunnerIV

Now that's what I call ignorance.

Aslan Maskhadov wanted a zone of Muslim Radicals? Get a grip and start reading.

This is the guy who was an artillery officer in the Red Army. Who served in the Lithuanian "campaign" in '91.

This is the guy who personally condemned the attack on Beslan and publicly called for Basayev to be tried for it.

He was also the guy who was elected President of Chechnya in the last election universally regarded as free and fair.

Do you know the person for whom your are campaining for right now Mr Basayev used to sell Chechens as slaves to the foreingn community ....at the time when Chechnia won independance(apprtox 1992 ) Chechens started selling the poor as "slaves " in the markets of Grozny.....those scenes were shown in your most favourite BBC ...So this was a president who was "Universally" free and fair?

About Islamist Radicalism ...Its true True most Chechen nationalist didnot have Islamist radicalism in his mind in the begining they wanted to capture power by the help of the West and USA...but they were betrayed by the West so they didnt have anyone else to help other than Arab radical Islams... they took help from the Arabs and the Arabs in turn played their game and changed the agenda from "freedom" to "jehad"

I feell India should do to PoK what the Israelis do to Gaza everytime a sucide bomber attacks or likewise.
These terror attacks are unbearable now.
200+ so far and 400+ injured in the mumbai blasts..
bl00dy bast*rds!!
I seriously don't think the Pakis will risk a full fledged war over this..It'll mean MAD... or at least their destruction..
I can't see any other way out of this..

Here's something that's frequenting Indian websites/blogs and inboxes:

Dear Terrorist,

Even if you are not reading this we don't care. Time and again you tried to disturb us and disrupt our life - killing innocent civilians by planting bombs in trains, buses and cars. You have tried hard to bring death and destruction, cause panic and fear and create communal disharmony but everytime you were disgustingly unsuccessful. Do you know how we pass our life in Mumbai? How much it takes for us to earn that single rupee? If you wanted to give us a shock then we are sorry to say that you failed miserably in your ulterior motives. Better look elsewere, not here.

We are not Hindus and Muslims or Gujaratis and Marathis or Punjabis and Bengaliies. Nor do we distinguish ourselves as owners or workers, govt.
employees or private employees. WE ARE MUMBAIKERS (Bombay-ites, if you like). We will not allow you to disrupt our life like this. On the last few occassions when you struck (including the 7 deadly blasts in a single day killing over 250 people and injuring 500+ in 1993), we went to work next day in full strength. This time we cleared everything within a few hours and were back to normal - the vendors placing their next order, businessmen finalizing the next deals and the office workers rushing to catch the next train. (Yes the same train you targetted)

Fathom this: Within 3 hours of the blasts, long queues of blood donating volunteers were seen outside various hospital, where most of the injured were admitted. By 12 midnight, the hospital had to issue a notification that blood banks were full and they didn't require any more blood. The next day, attendance at schools and office was close to 100%, trains & buses were packed to the brim, the crowds were back.
The city has simply dusted itself off and moved one - perhaps with greater vigour.

We are Mumbaikers and we live like brothers in times like this. So, do not dare to threaten us with your crackers. The spirit of Mumbai is very strong and can not be harmed.

Please forward this to others. U never know, by chance it may come to hands of a terrorist in Afghanistan, Pakistan or Iraq and he can then read this message which is specially meant for him!!!

With Love,
From the people of Mumbai (Bombay) and India

On a different note those who are looking for their loved ones in the Mumbai blasts please try this link. It has a list of all deceased and injured that have been identified so far.

Seems like everyone tries to get personal with me on this forum

Originally posted by preludeyou represent a country that blocks the freedom of the Internet

I dont represent any country. I represent a opinion, im not the one talking about china which means i am not representing.

Seems like you come from a country which also does the same thing as china

The exchange illustrated more about the state of freedom in Russia than met the eye. While Putin travels around with a contingent of reporters just as Bush does, the Kremlin press pool is a handpicked group of reporters, most of whom work for the state and the rest selected for their fidelity to the Kremlin's rules of the game. Helpful questions are often planted. Unwelcome questions are not allowed. Ananyone who gets out of line can get out of the pool.

The Kremlin press pool is like so many institutions in Russia that have the trappings of a Western-style pluralistic society but operate under a different set of understandings, part of what analyst Lilia Shevtsova of the Carnegie Moscow Center calls "the illusion of democracy." Television channels air newscasts with fancy graphics but follow scripts approved by the Kremlin. Elections are held, but candidates out of favor with the Kremlin are often knocked off the ballot. Courts conduct trials, but the state almost never loses. Parliament meets but only to rubber-stamp Kremlin legislation.

WashingtonPost

tha's why you have nothing left apart from those baised uncreditable sources

No,

I have experience in a REAL DEMOCRACY. What experience do you have?.

I could have compared the situation in Tibet ...But I dont feel China deserves to be compared with Russia.

China has actually done a much better job than russia and it will be a non-comparison if a comparison were done. No rebellion in almost half a century, rising income with 12% growth each year. Where is the compairsion?

Dalai Lama waiting for green light from China
Dalai Lama Considers Ending Exile & Return To Tibet]

and let the Chinese stop migrating Russian provinces to work as cheap servants in Russian cities

More like cheap russian labour moving into china...LOL

The migration flow across the border is by no means in one direction. Rather, the movement into China is far more intense. Russian citizens cross the border 1.5-2 times more frequently than Chinese. As we can see, the size of the Chinese presence in Russia is quite modest and is heavily
exaggerated

Link

The chinese that go to russia work for chinese compaines and are normally there on contracts. The other large group are merchants which move from border to border


Dont even compare china and russia. On paper russia seems to be a urbanized country but most of the buildings are either run down or sub-standard. The only thing russia has is her hundreds of rotting missiles. All just a fascade nothing to show for anything the soviets done

4 People's Republic of China 1 2,224,811
5 United Kingdom 2,201,473
6 France 2,105,864
7 Italy 1,766,160
8 Canada 1,130,208
9 Spain 1,126,565
10 South Korea 793,070
11 Brazil 792,683
12 India 775,410
13 Mexico 768,437
14 Russia 766,180

Look which countries out perform russia in economic performace. No brainer there is no comparison between china and russia


Let me quote some more figures

China -
population below poverty line - 10%

Russia -
population below poverty line - 17.8%

Seems like russia is also a lot poorer than russia per person. Moscow is world's costliest city which means a lot of people in russia cannot afford electricity. Let your own people experiment with it first



[edit on 12-7-2006 by chinawhite]

but most of the buildings are either run down or sub-standard

This quite handily applies to China as well, major parts of the country are living just as they lived 200-300 years ago, russian countryside stopped evolving at 60's... both aren't that great places to be...

Originally posted by northwolf
This quite handily applies to China as well, major parts of the country are living just as they lived 200-300 years ago, russian countryside stopped evolving at 60's... both aren't that great places to be...

LOL, thats quite true . But 200-300 years ago?

But, im not going to compare what the average person lives like since i can post pictures of chinas 600 cities with their new buildings if we want to do a city to city comparision. I also know that in a first world country like australia the same thing happens, just go to the inner cities sections and your see places which would seem to have stayed still since the 60s also. But prelude was trying to present the image that russia was rich and thus well presented which it is not.

EDIT:

I had a thought about the 200-300 year thing and thought that the houses they live in are not of the same design but more like concrete slabed houses which were the fashion those days. But saying they lived the same way is somewhat accurate, but you should facotr in the urbanization of those areas since 1979. No tax and cheap electritcity

[edit on 12-7-2006 by chinawhite]