WTC Steel Analysis Reveals Thermite and Thermate By-Products

Originally posted by Fenrir_Wolf:

To continue to try and find consipracy theories and plots where there are non * * *

What a relief. Someone finally solved this mystery. There was no conspiracy behind the 911 attacks.

Sorry to burst your bubble FW. Inquiring minds want answers.

Originally posted by dubiousone
Inquiring minds want answers.

Then I suggest that you check the Weakly World News.

So people with unanswered questions regarding 9/11 are gullible, Howard?

Originally posted by dubiousone
Originally posted by Fenrir_Wolf:

To continue to try and find consipracy theories and plots where there are non * * *

What a relief. Someone finally solved this mystery. There was no conspiracy behind the 911 attacks.

Sorry to burst your bubble FW. Inquiring minds want answers.

Then perhaps inquiring minds might want to look more closely at thier questions ?

Of course there was a consipracy behind 9/11 the "Terrorists" consipred for a long time to pull of such an audatious attack on enemy soil.

There may well have been a consipracy in the white house to ignore or hide the evidence that such an attack was both possible and emminent, in order to give justification for war.

However to claim that the US government deliberatly, methodically and some how secretly murdered its own citizens and then managed to cover up the evidence of doing so is just plain stupid - three easy reasons why

1. The current administration isnt that competant - if it was a govt plot someone the current bush regime has pissed off would have talked allready

2. To do what you lot are suggesting would require tons of explosives precisely placed by a team of demolition experts - anyone who had EVER been to the WTS will tell you how imposible that would have been without being discovered

3. NO MOTIVATION - if as intelligence suggest the US govt (or the powers that be )knew a major "terrorist" attack on Amerian soil was immient - why on earth would they risk discovery and swift and total loss of power when all they had to do was wait ?

Originally posted by Fenrir_Wolf
There may well have been a consipracy in the white house to ignore or hide the evidence that such an attack was both possible and emminent, in order to give justification for war.

Then don't you yourself have some unanswered questions?

Or does what you're suggesting really not bother you at all?

Originally posted by AgentSmith
I'm just theorising, but maybe it has something to do with the geology of the respective areas?

If you notice in pictures of manhattan the majority of Hi-rises are almost clustered on one end of the island. The Island of Manhattan is rock solid bedrock. They did blasting the other day at ground-zero to anchor the new foundation that saved weeks of time in conventional digging because the ground is so hard.

Harte said
The seismic readings mentioned at a great many websites are being misrepresented, much like the blatantly false statements I referenced in an earlier post.

Here's a link to the seismic data from the Lamont-Doherty Earth Observatory in Palisades New York, the source that is so often misrepresented:

From your link the first seismic reading at 09:59:04 is still off by 6minutes from the first collapse of the south tower which CNN says is 10:05 a.m. The 2nd one is about right. The first tower also didn't fall as the 2nd one did if I'm not mistaken.



Pie

FOR ALL THE THERMITE LOVERS OUT THERE.

www.geocities.com...

THIS OUGHT TO TAKE CARE OF THOSE WHO REALLY ARE LOOKING FOR ANSWERS.

ENJOY.



I ain't fallen for no banana in my tail pipe. But thermite!! Maybe.
Ha Ha Ha Tee Hee Hee.

Ok, here's the basics -

Thermite = aluminum (aircraft) + iron (steel skyscraper) + high temperature ignition source (burning magnesium in aircraft components)...

No mystery here! Just an unfortunate byproduct of a horrible event.

Duhh, posting specifics from that site would make it easier for a two-sided discussion.

Speedtok, what you're suggested has been proposed by a guy named Greening, and Steven Jones tested the theory himself (that rust, molten aluminum and etc. could form thermite naturally) and showed that it was not feasible in the least. I think he's preparing the material for the internet at the moment, but some information was released on it earlier on ATS from someone with closer ties to Mr. Jones.

The main two ingredients are aluminum and iron oxide (rust), both of which were in the towers. However, they would need to be finely ground, and the thermite reaction would have to be initiated by very hot temperatures, which the fires themselves would not be able to provide.

Here's an image from Jones' experiment:



As you can see, molten aluminum is being poured upon the rusted steel just as in Greening's theory, and as you have suggested. Notice that no thermite reaction is taking place.

Again, temperatures are necessary to initiate a thermite reaction that can't be provided by hydrocarbon fires. I wouldn't promise that the mix would be proper, either, considering the aluminum and iron oxide are usually finely ground, instead of molten aluminum just being poured on top of rust.

Speedtek wrote:
Thermite = aluminum (aircraft) + iron (steel skyscraper)

Thermite = shavings/powderised aluminium + shavings/powderised iron oxide (i.e rust, not iron), well-mixed.

Throw some steel (rusty or not, it's up to you), some pieces of aluminium, and some magnesium onto a pile of wood soaked in petroleum in a partially enclosed vessel and set it on fire - let us know if you create a spontaneous thermitic reaction.

Originally posted by Damocles
i think that the point was that the "residue" was nothing more than aluminum, rust etc

The point is, the products of simple thermite are pure molten iron and aluminium oxide, the exact opposite of that which you state.

1. The current administration isnt that competant - if it was a govt plot someone the current bush regime has pissed off would have talked allready

You mean like Dr. Morgan Reynolds former chief economist?

3. NO MOTIVATION - if as intelligence suggest the US govt (or the powers that be )knew a major "terrorist" attack on Amerian soil was immient - why on earth would they risk discovery and swift and total loss of power when all they had to do was wait ?

If you investigate the real power behind these attacks you will discover the answer to your question.

im not sure anyone suggested that a thermite reaction happened naturally

Yes they did. Dr. Greening did.

Anyway, back on subject now.

Do ya ha ve any clues as to how much thermite would be needed to create all this molten steel??

Its on this page again


www.geocities.com...

Originally posted by wecomeinpeace

Speedtek wrote:
Thermite = aluminum (aircraft) + iron (steel skyscraper)

Thermite = shavings/powderised aluminium + shavings/powderised iron oxide (i.e rust, not iron), well-mixed.

Throw some steel (rusty or not, it's up to you), some pieces of aluminium, and some magnesium onto a pile of wood soaked in petroleum in a partially enclosed vessel and set it on fire - let us know if you create a spontaneous thermitic reaction.

Originally posted by Damocles
i think that the point was that the "residue" was nothing more than aluminum, rust etc

The point is, the products of simple thermite are pure molten iron and aluminium oxide, the exact opposite of that which you state.

I'm missing the relevence. Was the claim of 'evidence of thermite' that was found aluminum/rust...or pure molten iron/aluminumoxide/rust?..or what? What is claimed to have been found?

Originally posted by Vushta
I'm missing the relevence. Was the claim of 'evidence of thermite' that was found aluminum/rust...or pure molten iron/aluminumoxide/rust?..or what? What is claimed to have been found?

The NIST and Jones found evidence of sulphidation on different samples, a CHECMICAL REACTION not just some random sulphur that landed on a sample. The NIST calls it very strange and can give no source for the sulphidation.

Jones claims to have found aluminum-oxied laced sulphidated steel "blobs" on the samples.

Both admit to molten steel weeks later.


[edit on 14-7-2006 by Slap Nuts]

[edit on 14-7-2006 by Slap Nuts]

You're totally missing something.

FACT ONE: Remember how long those fires burned under the WTC?

www.newscientist.com...

12 weeks. Go ahead read the article. See what they eventually used to put the fire out? PYROCOOL!

Guess what? PYROCOOL is about the ONLY THING in the world that CAN PUT OUT THERMITE. And Jones is saying that they used "a super thermite" in order to cut the beams so fast. So naturally there will be a larger amount of left over heat burning away 12 WEEKS LATER!

FACT TWO: Want to see some interesting I BEAMS?



Ever see a controlled demo before?

Ever see what a stick of thermite looks like when attached to an IBEAM...

...FOR A CONTROLED DEMOLITION?!

(dammit I can't upload anything to ATS for some reason and just lost my avatar while I was at it... wtf?)

myspace-490.vo.llnwd.net...

And here too...

myspace-005.vo.llnwd.net...

BTW! That might be the FIRST TIME that I've ever seen anyone SHOW how the stupid THERMITE STICKS are attached to the IBEAMS in the first place to cut them like that. Notice the angle?

Notice anyways.. that that IS EXACTLY how that documentary I got those shots from show how they cut through IBEAMS for controlled demos.


Its more like... "Gee, how come no one thought to look for thermite before since they had to use Pyrocool to get the fire (thermite powered obviously) at ground zero to stop burning 12 weeks after 9-11 itself. AND since many of the IBEAMS look like they've been cut using thermite cutting explosives?"

How can you even DEBATE if thermite was used with the photo evidence ALONE!?

Never MIND the fact that they ACTUALLY FOUND CHEMICAL EVIDENCE OF THE THERMITE!

NEVER MIND the fact that they had to USE a certain chemical that IS USED SPECIFICALLY FOR THE PURPOSE OF PUTTING OUT THERMITE FIRES!


JUST HOW MUCH BLOODY EVIDENCE TO DO YOU NEED THAT IT WAS A CONTROLLED DEMO AND THAT 9-11 ITSELF WAS AN INSIDE JOB?!


WHAT DOES IT TAKE ALREADY?!


-vmx

[edit on 14-7-2006 by Vis Major X]

Originally posted by Fenrir_Wolf
A touch of common sense is needed in this discussion


1) Hard evidence is lacking as to the source, purity, testing methods and depending on who you listen to credibility of the results quoted

2) Anyone out there ever seen the chemical composition breakdown for the smoke that the WTS was putting out ? - if not go take a look the amount of trace elements in that toxic soup was incredible

3) For those folks wanting a source of sulphur/Aluminium/etc - check the building materials used during the construction of the WTS and in the subsequent office fit outs over the years - hell just check out the standard chemical composition of the dry wall and the insulators and you'll get a surprize.

4) Any of you ever been to a high rise construction site ?- know what they use to weld structural girders? - Thermite and thermite derivitives

The WTS tradgedy was just that, a tragedy. To continue to try and find consipracy theories and plots where there are non not only cheapens the memory of those who died but distracts attention from the real consipracies and the real criminals who used 9/11 to freight train thier own agendas through into law and degrade not only the freedoms and rights of Americans but the safety and human rights of all free democracies everywhere!.

You deserve an award for the smartest thing i have read in this 8 pages of drivel. Good job man. Thanks for keeping it real.

Thermite burned for 12 weeks eh? That could not happen unless there is 12 weeks of fuel there for it too burn through...

Too many "jpeg scholars" and not enough common sense.

Do a nice biiiig search for a thread about "no conspiracy" and "thermite".... I already blew the "thermite" idea out of the water... no pun intended.


I can find "chemical evidence" of embalming agents in a bottle of beer.... doesnt mean there is a "world conspiracy" to make humans the living dead.
[edit on 14-7-2006 by donk_316]

[edit on 14-7-2006 by donk_316]

Originally posted by Vis Major X
You're totally missing something.

FACT ONE: Remember how long those fires burned under the WTC?

www.newscientist.com...

12 weeks. Go ahead read the article. See what they eventually used to put the fire out? PYROCOOL!

Guess what? PYROCOOL is about the ONLY THING in the world that CAN PUT OUT THERMITE. And Jones is saying that they used "a super thermite" in order to cut the beams so fast. So naturally there will be a larger amount of left over heat burning away 12 WEEKS LATER!

FACT TWO: Want to see some interesting I BEAMS?

Ever see a controlled demo before?

Ever see what a stick of thermite looks like when attached to an IBEAM...

...FOR A CONTROLED DEMOLITION?!

(dammit I can't upload anything to ATS for some reason and just lost my avatar while I was at it... wtf?)

myspace-490.vo.llnwd.net...

And here too...

myspace-005.vo.llnwd.net...

BTW! That might be the FIRST TIME that I've ever seen anyone SHOW how the stupid THERMITE STICKS are attached to the IBEAMS in the first place to cut them like that. Notice the angle?

Notice anyways.. that that IS EXACTLY how that documentary I got those shots from show how they cut through IBEAMS for controlled demos.


Its more like... "Gee, how come no one thought to look for thermite before since they had to use Pyrocool to get the fire (thermite powered obviously) at ground zero to stop burning 12 weeks after 9-11 itself. AND since many of the IBEAMS look like they've been cut using thermite cutting explosives?"

How can you even DEBATE if thermite was used with the photo evidence ALONE!?

Never MIND the fact that they ACTUALLY FOUND CHEMICAL EVIDENCE OF THE THERMITE!

NEVER MIND the fact that they had to USE a certain chemical that IS USED SPECIFICALLY FOR THE PURPOSE OF PUTTING OUT THERMITE FIRES!


JUST HOW MUCH BLOODY EVIDENCE TO DO YOU NEED THAT IT WAS A CONTROLLED DEMO AND THAT 9-11 ITSELF WAS AN INSIDE JOB?!


WHAT DOES IT TAKE ALREADY?!


-vmx

[edit on 14-7-2006 by Vis Major X]

Interesting History channel pictures of how they attach the thermite to the beam. Now how do you suppose they got it onto the beams? During construction? And wait so long than attempt to bomb the towers in 93' and not use the thermite? Or when those maintenance days occured weeks before 9/11 ? Is the thermite remotely detonated or wiring? Remotely would seem easier I would assume.

Pyrocool was used to put out those very hot fires. So what though... If it works at putting out fires you use it. Pyrocool fire extinguishers can be bought for personal use doesn't mean you have to have a thermite reaction in your home to use it, just a fire. If it's that effective at putting out fires I don't see why they would't use it to put out the ground zero fires.

.. they used 2000 gallons of the liquid and that was on WEEK 12 because it still wasn't out. They had FLOODED the tunnels and basement with water at some points and yet the bases of the towers were infernos AFTER 12 WEEKS. And have you ever heard of "right tool for the right job"? Well if YOU WANT to PUT OUT THERMITE then you use PYROCOOL. So after 12 weeks they were like "WTF can we do? The fires just will not go out!" and 'someone' suggests that they try Pyrocool and the next thing you know the fires are going out.

That is a history channel documentary that I'm betting will never be played ever again. Its about demolition. Those "toobs" are placed on an IBEAMS one on each side of it thats the thermite of course. First a little cutting is done (I imagine the super thermite Jones says was used would not require this step to be taken - usefull) and then those are just snapped like together one on each side. They get superhot quickly (that orange fire you see in the video at the top of the tower) and the IBEAM is trapped between these two thermite tubes releasing lots of heat energy very fast and cutting the IBeam apart.

I'm sure there were all sorts of different types of demolition devices used to take those towers down on 9-11. They fell very fast and were completely pulverised. They didn't CRUMBLE which is the problem.. had they CRUMBLED.. slowly large chunks of it falling in to the street and crushing buildings costs bazillions in more death and destruction would be more what I would expect from a building that is just simply losing its structural integrity.. it would or could take hours or even days almost buring down like a candle. One large piece breaks, damages another and before long that piece is falling and causing more damage to a portion of the base and perhaps the second tower to completely lose its "togetherness" doesn't CRUMBLE but falls over in to the street or much worse in to a bunch of the other towers in the area.. dominos. But instead they crumbled apart into a neat pile and therefore lots of different things had to be going on to get that desired effect. Had it gone down in an uncontroled manner the damage and destruction would have been so much worse.

Those two old buildings that were losing money and had major maintence issues that would have cost more to fix then the buildings were worth (so the situation was just going to deteriorate) are suddenly for the first time in history sold to someone for a 99 year lease and for the first time ever a terror insurence clause is taken out on the buildings.. a month later they were rubble. Instead a control demolition is executed in public without even the hassle of having to ensure anyones safety (talk about cost cutting) in front of the whole world after two jets of questionable origin hit them. No more problem with what to do about the "problem laced" property and he even has the cash to rebuild since he was paid 7 bil for the insurence but he hasn't.. its been 5 years now and he hasn't layed a SINCE BRICK down in NY yet to rebuild the towers.. the sweetest property in the world not to mention the cost of the rent surrounding the towers (and now they can't afford to pay because of a lack of biz from the lack of towers) ..and not only that but he just bought the Sears Tower too.

Time to lace the buildings with these explosives the towerstook place the weekend before. Well the WTC security was run by a Bush company (just like the security at some of the 9-11 airports). It was powered down the so that the P.A. could lay new network cable through out the building and so no one payed attention to the hardhats walking in and out of the WTC all weekend. There were many floors that were completely vacent so they could HQ on any of them unseen for weeks in advance for prep. Then they did what they had to do finally, and the crime scene was completely cleaned up for them (mostly).


What do you need make you believe?

-VMX

one quick question if anyone could help me out..

im wondering how long it would take thermite to rip through a beam like the one that is posted above

not looking for opinions either way just how long do you think

When Steven Jones added sulfur to the aluminum/iron oxide mix, he had some steel cut almost instantly, but his presentation on that isn't ready yet (you can download documents on it if you do some searching though). Thermite without sulfur would take a bit longer, probably a few seconds. I don't think it would be used except to take out core columns and the corner box columns as seen in WTC2.