National Treasure Nonsense

Alright, it's been long enough. The movie has been out for some time, and yet I am still hearing people ignorantly quote the events as fact. The Da Vinci Code is now stirring up the same kind of blatant disregard for fact, but that is another thread(actually, several THREADS) altogether. My issue lies in the misconstrewed facts about the Freemasons that founded our country, and the role they truly played in placing Masonic symbols deep within the foundations of our heritage.
My first beef is about B. Franklin. Let me get this out clearly to those of you who continue to argue for his role in the Seal of the United States, you know who you are. B. FRANKLIN HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH THE ALL SEEING EYE IN THE PYRAMID, NEITHER DID HE HAVE ANYTHING TO DO WITH MDCCLXXVI, OR THE LATIN E PLURIBUS UNUM That said, let me continue in depth.
The committee that was formed to create the Seal DID consist of B. Franklin. However, he was the ONLY Mason on the committee. The others included Pierre Du Simitierre, John Adams, and Thomas Jefferson. It was Pierre that first introduced the idea of the all seeing eye in the triangle, and the reason for this was purely Christian. He was a lover of renaissance art and had come to love the design for its symbolism of the ever watchful creator. I.E.-God watches over our new country. Now, for those of you that would contend that the eye has been a Masonic symbol for some time, let me say that it originated here first. The Masons did not adopt it until 1797, roughly 14 years after it was adopted by Congress. The original committee didn't even get their design voted on. It took TWO more and several votes by Congress before the final seal was accepted. And in the argument presented before them on the symbol, "the pyramid represented strength and foundation, while the eye of God watched over the masses of a fledgling country" There is also the matter of the Pyramid itself, which has never been used as a Masonic symbol. Ever. Their meaning for the Pyramid symbol, at best, is something like "mystery" or "shroud". If someone has evidence to disprove what I have stated here, I would stand humbly corrected, but it just seems to me a bit ludicris to take a movie so seriously. And let me say before I finish that I am a recent member, aware of the fact that previous threads to this topic most likely exist regarding the movie when it first came out, but in light of the recent fictions emerging on the market, and the sheer number of people who seem to be completely enamoured of the silver screen's "facts", I thought it plausible to resurface the topic.

Interesting and educational. Just curious where you found your information. Good Post!

Much of this is just fact, things that can be obtained through any public domain research base. The records of the committees for the seal are always open for perusal. There is a book out called Founding Fathers, Secret Societies that you might want to check out if you are further interested by the topic. There is also an interesting link that discusses some of the other widely renouned misconceptions regarding Freemasons. I'll leave that here.

Freemason info

We LOVED the movie National Treasure. It was awesome!!

BTW - when the DVD came out for sale we were at the Liberty Bell
on a field trip. We talked to one of the park rangers about when the
movie was shot. Guess what??? The Liberty Bell in the movie is a fake.
It's a cardboard cut out. The real Liberty Bell was still in the old building
and hadn't been moved to the new pavilion yet.

Well ... I say 'real' Liberty Bell ... my husband and I have a theory that
the real bell is in some iron mountain somewhere and that we are all
looking at a very good copy ... but that's for another thread, right??

you do know the National Treasure was a MOVIE right ?? and do you also know that Hollywood has a tendency to MAKE THINGS UP to fit their movies !!


don't get riled at a movie....many of them are factually incorrect.

Originally posted by Alpha Grey
you do know the National Treasure was a MOVIE right ?? and do you also know that Hollywood has a tendency to MAKE THINGS UP to fit their movies !!
don't get riled at a movie....many of them are factually incorrect.

No one is getting riled up over the movie. The problem is in all the people that come on here into Freemason forums and whathaveyou, claiming that they know one thing or the next about the real founding Freemasons and their intentions. After much poorly researched and thoroughly exhausting debate with these "scholars", I end up discovering that they are basing everything they KNOW on a movie that came out a few years ago. I would urge you to say this exact same thing to THEM. This is the point of the post, to educate those that think they know the story because an extremely loosely based concept was in a popular movie.

Well ... I say 'real' Liberty Bell ... my husband and I have a theory that
the real bell is in some iron mountain somewhere and that we are all
looking at a very good copy ... but that's for another thread, right??

Have you seen the one in Liberty Hall ( I think thats what they call it, its been 27 years after all) @ Knotts Berry Farm in Ca.? It is an excelent repro as I recall.

the movie was good and all and the symbols and such are right on the money. whoever made the movie definatly did the research or was a freemason themselves. the movie was to place the freemasons in a good light but in reality that is far from the truth. perhaps the freemason membership is declining and this movie was a way to lure people into joining. there were a few things are really misleading in the movie and one of them is the treasure at the end. this "treasure" as they call it, gold, jewles, statues, trinkets, etc....is definatly not what the freemasons have been guarding for centuries. it is by no means monetary nor materialistic, as shown in the movie, although this guarded secret generates massive amounts of both and this is the reason they control every aspect of human life.

Originally posted by Funkydung
the movie was good and all and the symbols and such are right on the money. whoever made the movie definatly did the research or was a freemason themselves. the movie was to place the freemasons in a good light but in reality that is far from the truth. perhaps the freemason membership is declining and this movie was a way to lure people into joining. there were a few things are really misleading in the movie and one of them is the treasure at the end. this "treasure" as they call it, gold, jewles, statues, trinkets, etc....is definatly not what the freemasons have been guarding for centuries. it is by no means monetary nor materialistic, as shown in the movie, although this guarded secret generates massive amounts of both and this is the reason they control every aspect of human life.

As I said before, the allseeing eye on the dollar bill was not even a masonic symbol until fourteen years after the seal was voted on by Congress. B Franklin was the only Freemason on the original committee to make the seal in the first place. In fact, almost all of the symbology on that note was contributed by the other members, Adams...etc. How do you have the dollar bill as a Masonic flag of presence when they had little to do with its printing in the first place? As I have asked you before on another thread, what facts do you have to support any of these claims? Are you a Freemason yourself? I would find it difficult to believe, considering half the things you are spouting could be easily refuted by even the newest member. Any links, books, or credited anything would be most helpful.

They control every aspect of human life

. I got up this morning, took a shower, ate breakfast, and went to work. Never came across any Freemason control or guidance the whole time. I earned my money for the week, then spent it on what I saw fit to spend it on. Once again, no Omnipresent secret order telling me how, where, when, and why to spend the money that I earned off of my own labor. Please explain this statement to me, if you could, because I am having a difficult time with it. Also, on a side note, whatever happened to that debate challenge I issued to you over these very same topics? You stopped posting all together in the thread in which I asked you. If you do not wish to discuss these things with anyone who would argue against your points, then very well. At least extend me the courtesy of rejecting the offer instead of ignoring it altogether.

In case there were any other doubts by anyone about the Freemasons and their "control over everything" or their "mysterious Luciferian origins", please see this link and following threads.

The Real History and Pratices of Freemasons

www.abovetopsecret.com...

where do you want this thread to go ?

should the class consider themselves duly chastised, or are you looking for a debate of sorts ?

Originally posted by syrinx high priest
where do you want this thread to go ?
should the class consider themselves duly chastised, or are you looking for a debate of sorts ?

Constructive comments would be a start, but the point of this thread was simply to provide information to those that have been using the movie as a source of fact. In regards to FunkyDung, he made some fairly outrages and unfounded statements on another thread, out of which I politely asked him for a debate on the issue. Insteading of responding, he chose to go to another thread that I had authored on the subject and post his unfounded and factually lacking rants there. This was never intended to be a full out thread, but if someone wished to post regarding the Masons, I would only expect something supported by Fact, or at the very least something they believed was fact. Here there is nothing. I would assume that everyone on ATS would love to hear a differing opinion on various subjects, but I would also assume that they would expect these opinions to be backed by something other than words. That is all.

the very first freemasons aquired the secret esoteric knowledge from ancient egypt and also the Gnostic teachings and has been passed on to the highest ranking freemason members thruout the centuries. (the G that you see between the right angle and compass on the freemason symbol is from the word Gnostic) this knowledge was also aquired by a man named dr. john dee in the 1500s and it is documented that he knew even back then about the americas and the plan that was intended for it. the plan? to be the birthing place for a world democracy or a stronghold for a utopia that would spread across the planet. he even called it "the new atlantis." this vision came from ancient egypt....and this is one reason why one of their (freemason) symbols, the pyramid, is on the dollar bill...and the erect penis of baal(the obelisk) and Semiramis(statue of liberty)this is were the vision was introduced, ancient egypt...and now is in operation.

An alchemist; hermeticist, cabalist, adept in esoteric and occcult lore. this man had a very big part in the construction and continuation of the lie that has blinded mankind from the truth about the spirit world and the christ. this knowledge was given to him from spirits from other dimension called the fallen angels and lucifer. this is why the materialistic and scientific bombardment has been upon us for some time.... here are a few things that dr. john dee was involved in. he was just one of the many many faces to aquire this knowledge that has been passed down...this knowledge is the secret that they hide from the masses in order to control and gain massive amouts of power and eventually rebuild the new world order that satan has longed for since babylon. mankind ate from the tree of knowlege of good and evil and are still eating from it to this day.

www.johndee.org...

External Source


1. Visionary of the British Empire; coined the word Brittannia and developed a plan for the British Navy.


2. The first to apply Euclidean geometry to navigation; built the instruments to apply Euclid; trained the first great navigators; developed the maps; charted the Northeast and Northwest Passages.


3. An angel conjuror with his sidekick Kelley; the angels told him what Britain would have in their eventual empire; used an obsidian show stone which came from the Aztecs/Mayans and rests in the British Museum along with his conjuring table which contains the Enochian Alphabet he used as angel language.


4. Philosopher to Queen Elizabeth; did her horoscope; determined her coronation date astrologically; she came to visit him on her horse.


5. Founder of the Rosicrucian Order, the protestant response to the Jesuits.


6. An alchemist; hermeticist, cabalist, adept in esoteric and occcult lore.


7. Translator of Euclid and wrote the famous Mathematical Preface, mapping mathematical studies for the future, a kind of system of the sciences based on math.


8. Put a hex on the Spanish Armada which is why there was bad weather and England won.


9. Commissioned by Elizabeth to establish the legal foundation for colonizing North America; went back to Madoc, a Welsh Prince who took a group over to New England in the middle ages and established the first colony, and intermarried with the Indians, but with little or no historical trace but for the legend.


10. Instrumental in theatre arts and architecture.


11. Shakespeare depicted him as Prospero, and King Lear.


12. Sold the Voynich Manuscript, the most mysterious, a cipher as yet to be deciphered--"the Everest of cipher studies"--to the Holy Roman Emperor--Rudolph II--for a lot of gold. Resides at Yale in the Beineke Library. Probably an herbal and an almanac by Anthony Askham.


13. Had the greatest library in England over 4,000 books.


14. Biography by Peter French and everything by Francis Yates, his greatest advocate: cf. especially THE ROSICRUCIAN ENLIGHTENMENT.

dr. dee like i said is just a pawn in the game. there are many others working to bring about this "new atlantis" or nwo. all stems from ancient egypt, babylon, etc......this plan is not man made nor is man in control of it.


now if you want facts i suggest to you researche dr. dee and francis bacon. do an indepth study on them and you will get the facts that you want so bad. and if you cant put two and two together and come up with the answer then nobody can help you on this subject. remember, dr. dee is just one of the many.
and i suggest you do an indepth study of the rosicrucian enlightenment for futher information. good stuff.

also, i invite you to go to this thread. a very interesting and informative thread that sun_matrix has started. want to know about this "lie" that has been going on for thousands of years? www.abovetopsecret.com...









[edit on 4-6-2006 by Funkydung]

Funkydung

One of my pet gripes about some postings on ATS is the propensitly of a few people to post speculation and supposition as if it was fact. This is exactly what you have done above. It would be so much more accurate, and infinitely less inflammatory, if you used phrases such as 'IMO' and 'I think/believe', or 'I have been told/I read on x website/I dreamed...' etc etc.

The danger is that folks will come along and believe that your information is fact, treat it as such and promulgate it as such. before long it becomes a perceived reality and someone will say 'there's no smoke without fire...' This is exactly how misinformation grows and becomes an obstacle to denying ignorance.

I'm willing to bet that your source for all of this is someone else doing exactly the same as you, treating hypotheses as fact, which makes you guilty of promulgation. Please don't take everything you see or read on the internet as 'gospel truth', do your own research, and remember that just because 'everyone' says something is so doesn't necessarily make it true.

Mixing Truth and Fiction together is even more dangerous, and there is some of that in your post too. Perhaps you could elaborate on exactly what constitutes a 'high ranking' mason? And what exactly is the connection between John Dee and Freemasonry?

Originally posted by Funkydung
the very first freemasons aquired the secret esoteric knowledge from ancient egypt and also the Gnostic teachings and has been passed on to the highest ranking freemason members thruout the centuries. (the G that you see between the right angle and compass on the freemason symbol is from the word Gnostic)

I think that the Freemasons of the world, and most especially those on ATS would be surprised to learn that this letter does not stand for either "God" or "Geometry", as has always been believed. Widely.

this knowledge was also aquired by a man named dr. john dee in the 1500s and it is documented that he knew even back then about the americas and the plan that was intended for it. the plan? to be the birthing place for a world democracy or a stronghold for a utopia that would spread across the planet. he even called it "the new atlantis."

Wrong. The "New Atlantis" was the name given by Francis Bacon, who came after Dee. Dee only called it "Atlantis", and the reasons for that is because he believed the new world, lead to by the recently discovered Strait of Anan was actually the lost city. It would not have been a far off assumption at the time, considering how little they knew about the earth as a whole. As you have mentioned yourself, with due credit to Dee, expert navigation was only just arising.

this vision came from ancient egypt....and this is one reason why one of their (freemason) symbols, the pyramid, is on the dollar bill...and the erect penis of baal(the obelisk) and Semiramis(statue of liberty)this is were the vision was introduced, ancient egypt...and now is in operation.

I assume here that you refer to the teachings of Thoth, Egyptian God of language and knowledge? He, along with Isis and Osiris brought civilization, sciences, and all that jazz to the Egyptian people. John Dee practiced, Hermitic Gnosticism, which is just an extention of these teachings. He then applied what he had learned when he met up with Kelly, also known as Talbott, a noted conman that only used Dee to make money(I'll expand on THAT one in a minute). But what has any of this to do with Freemasonry? If you are referring to Enoch, then here is a link to an essay by Albert G. Mackey.
Mackey's Essay
I suggest to read it. Basically, the point is that there is absolutely no historical evidence to support The Book of Enoch which is where this "esoteric knowledge" you keep speaking of seems to come from. That is, if you want to stick to the Freemason's connection to it all. This is the only record the Freemasons have regarding secrets stored and kept for a later time, and even in Enoch they had nothing to do with Lucifer.

An angel conjuror with his sidekick Kelley; the angels told him what Britain would have in their eventual empire; used an obsidian show stone which came from the Aztecs/Mayans and rests in the British Museum along with his conjuring table which contains the Enochian Alphabet he used as angel language.

Kelly was a well known conman and extortionist. He had even gone by a different name, Edward Talbott, but had to change it because of all the criminal activity and suspicious scenarios regarding him. In fact, John Dee was never a seer of spirits himself. He even quoted in his diary, "I know I cannot see, nor scry". Talbott needed someone of lofty scientific and philisophical stature to validate his B.S., someone who was gullible enough to believe it all to begin with. The "angels" that Dee spent the remainder of his life studying, and whose words he transcribed, all came from what Talbott told him he was seeing and hearing. At one point, Talbott had Dee so convinced of what he had been seeing, that he told Dee "the angels wanted them to switch wives." It was no secret that Talbott had been eyeing Dee's wife for some time, and better yet, Dee bought it! All of it was for money from the start. Check into it, the two of them made substantial amounts of cash from this intricate con before the wife incident disbanded them in 1588. The Order of the Golden Dawn is an organization that evolved from the pairs so called, "magic". They took everything that the "angels" had said and expanded on it. It was all crap from the start.

He put a hex on the Spanish Armada which is why there was bad weather and England won.

You are telling me that there is undeniable proof that the Spanish Armada lost to England because some guy put a curse on them? I could say that the Yankees aren't going to win the World Series because I have cursed them not to. If they lose, well, it must have been because of my hex.

One of my pet gripes about some postings on ATS is the propensitly of a few people to post speculation and supposition as if it was fact. This is exactly what you have done above. It would be so much more accurate, and infinitely less inflammatory, if you used phrases such as 'IMO' and 'I think/believe', or 'I have been told/I read on x website/I dreamed...' etc etc.

i belive you are right on the money with that statement.

The danger is that folks will come along and believe that your information is fact, treat it as such and promulgate it as such. before long it becomes a perceived reality and someone will say 'there's no smoke without fire...' This is exactly how misinformation grows and becomes an obstacle to denying ignorance.

people dont have to belive anything i say. people have brains and should learn to use them. all they have to do is a little research. well maybe more than just a little. and your right, that is exactly how information gets twisted. we can see that in our history classes all over this country.

I'm willing to bet that your source for all of this is someone else doing exactly the same as you, treating hypotheses as fact, which makes you guilty of promulgation. Please don't take everything you see or read on the internet as 'gospel truth', do your own research, and remember that just because 'everyone' says something is so doesn't necessarily make it true.

i did a study on dr. dee. maybe the people who said it was history was treating hypotheses as fact as well. who knows anymore. our records of history have been so screwed with thru the centuries....maybe we did come from mars. i dont take everything i read as gospel truth...that wouldnt be any fun. the thing is when you read something, especially something that seems important to you, like history, you have to make sure that what your reading is correct. you have to ref things constantly. one thing leads to another. the connection sometimes will amaze you if you dig deep enough.

Mixing Truth and Fiction together is even more dangerous, and there is some of that in your post too. Perhaps you could elaborate on exactly what constitutes a 'high ranking' mason? And what exactly is the connection between John Dee and Freemasonry?

ah the mixing of truth and fiction. very dangerous but works very well. something that many are trying to work thru to find the truth of this mangled mess we have.
high ranking mason? come on you know the answer to that. and the connection between dee and freemasonry? i belive you know that as well. gnostic basis for the ritual of freemasonry.. the centre for occultism entirely cabbalistic based on the kabbalah. dee was heavy in to this and passed it on to bacon. and we know who bacon is.

and i like your signature.




[edit on 5-6-2006 by Funkydung]

Originally posted by Funkydung
high ranking mason? come on you know the answer to that.

No, really, I don't. There's no formal point in freemasonry that one becomes 'high ranking'. I don't know whether you mean a Past Master, perhaps a member of Grand Lodge, or perhaps even a Grand Master or Past GM? It's possible that you may mean a Knight Templar Priest from the York Rite, or perhaps a 33 degree Scottish Rite Mason (although if this is the case we don't have very many high ranking masons in England :lol

and the connection between dee and freemasonry? i belive you know that as well. gnostic basis for the ritual of Freemasonry.. the centre for occultism entirely cabbalistic based on the Kabbalah. dee was heavy in to this and passed it on to bacon. and we know who bacon is.

Sorry, don't know what you mean. I have heard many esoteric and occult hypotheses about the origins of freemasonry, but none of them bear any relationship to Craft masonry today. I understand there are kabbalistic influences in the SRIA but that is very much a specialist Side Order IMO.

and i like your signature.

Actually I quite like yours too

Originally posted by Funkydung
maybe we did come from mars.

I think you'll find only the men came from Mars. The women came from somewhere completely different - Venus. Which is sometimes known as the Morning Star, which is to say Lucifer.

So from this we can deduce that Men Are From Mars and Women Are From Hell

Originally by Funkydung
ah the mixing of truth and fiction. very dangerous but works very well. something that many are trying to work thru to find the truth of this mangled mess we have.

He was referring to what you posted as fact. If anyone is trying to "work through the tangled mess we have", it is because of posts like that. "This is so because I say it is so." What does that prove? I agree with Trinityman on this, and it has been said a thousand times. You can't insert opinion as fact and leave it at that. THIS IS DANGEROUS. Unfortunately this will be said a thousand times again. Do you realize how many people read through these threads that don't actually post anything, that are just reading them for the informational expansion on particular subjects? These threads show up in random search engines such as google and yahoo whenever a topic is provided. As a member of ATS, you have a responsibility to the general cyberspace public to post only those opinions based on facts, facts that can be referenced in your post. An opinion must be obviously what it is, otherwise we end up with more new members that "know" all about this subject because they "read it somewhere". It is alright to read about something somewhere and make a reference to it, but you have to let people know that this is what you are doing. Links, quotes, external sources,...all of this is acceptable. I will be the first to admit that my opinions on ATS have been challenged on numerous occasions, but my references are always based on factual evidence and studies. Now granted, sometimes you can reference a study, such as a paper or such that seems to have a severely biased and unfounded opinion. This can get you into trouble too, but it is soooo much better than blatant disregard for fact and truth.

high ranking mason? come on you know the answer to that. and the connection between dee and freemasonry? i belive you know that as well. gnostic basis for the ritual of freemasonry.. the centre for occultism entirely cabbalistic based on the kabbalah. dee was heavy in to this and passed it on to bacon. and we know who bacon is.

I would reference you to my above post. This is all addressed there.

I saw this movie the other day and it made me wonder if there is some kind of secret treasure somwhere in the world not necissarly to masons n such

but in genral, it would be really good fun to actually go and find some kind of treasure that changes the world

like if there really were scrolls from Alexandria ect

so does anyone think theres a possiblity that some kind of awsome secret treasure exists somewhere and has been long forgotton

i must be a horrible mason, because i havent found these powers i supposedly have to control everything. if i had said powers i would control the bank into dumping large sums into my bank account.

maybe i just need to keep practicing...but my neighborhood ran out of babies for me to kill and eat in the name of my egyptian gods.