Noah vs. Utnapishtim (Bible and Gilgamesh)

Here is the tablet that the Atrahasis Epic is contained on. Below is a link to a site that goes in-depth with the story and helps to fill in the gaps, since the actual tablet only depicts a short, partial piece of what happened.

Atrahasis examination

[edit on 20-5-2006 by EdenKaia]

Originally posted by Prot0n
Well that's all fine and dandy and all, that myth was written after the epic of gilgamesh, as I repeated before, there is an older text of which I can't remember the name that pre-dates the gilgamesh myth. The text your talking about was written after gilgamesh but prior to the biblical account. I saw this older text in a documentary a few months back. Just wish I could remember the name, would make searching for it easier as I'm sure your probably to smug to do so yourself.

Not actually too smug at all. In fact, I have already done extensive research on this topic, which has led me to the conclusion about Atrahasis that I have. If you actually read through the links and the other sites that are provided, or perhaps even do a search yourself, you would find that you are wrong. Atrahasis PREDATES the Gilgamesh story, and is the Epic that is commonly agreed to be the source of the Epic's account of the flood. Nothing smug about it. This is just fact. I don't know what you've heard or read regarding something even earlier than this, but if you have, a link or anything would be nice.

I saw this older text in a documentary some months back

Doesnt really help me too much. If something older than the Atrahasis is in existance, I would really love to see it, and would stand humbly corrected. Until then, I stand by the evidence provided.

Hmm really.

You do leave me wondering if you had bothered to read the article you've linked too. 1700BC is 18th century BC, not 19th. This is roughly around when the Atrahasis Epic was written, as per your link tell's us. Our earliest recorded Epic of Gilgamesh date's back to roughly 2100BC. That's a big difference compared to what your imagining. I'm unsure how someone who claims to have done such extensive research could overlook such an important detail as this. Exactly what does "extensive research" mean to you?

I'll repeat this one more time, probably won't be the last time considering what you view as "extensive research". I can't remember the name of the text, but it does predate the Gilgamesh account. I am trying to find it for you as obviously you need alot of help with this concept of extensive research of yours. It's really a shame people are so smug these days. It is ok to admit that you don't know if you in fact don't know, you only make a fool out of yourself acting as if you know.

[EDIT] Just to brush up on your uh.. extensive research. The Summerian culture begins, from the earliest date I can find is 6640BC. The Akkadian Empire begins 2300BC. You should really work on that extensive research concept.

[EDIT] Pt. 2 - I'm sure I'm pushing it now, but I'm also wondering if your also lacking skill's in reading comprehension. Please, read this text to yourself quietly or outloud.

This story as we have it comes from an early Babylonian version of about 1700 BC, but it certainly dates back to Sumerian times. It combines familiar Sumerian motifs of the creation of mankind and the subsequent flood.

Now explain to me exactly how you would interpret that text. This psuedo-test will allow us here at ATS to determine how well you can comprehend what your reading. That is, if you have read the text itself as I am unsure if you have given the content of your previous post.

[edit on 20-5-2006 by Prot0n]

[edit on 20-5-2006 by Prot0n]

Originally posted by Prot0n
...1700BC is 18th century BC, not 19th. This is roughly around when the Atrahasis Epic was written, as per your link tell's us. Our earliest recorded Epic of Gilgamesh date's back to roughly 2100BC. That's a big difference compared to what your imagining. I'm unsure how someone who claims to have done such extensive research could overlook such an important detail as this. Exactly what does "extensive research" mean to you?

I'll repeat this one more time, probably won't be the last time considering what you view as "extensive research". I can't remember the name of the text, but it does predate the Gilgamesh account.

Let me give this a shot:

The Gilgamesh epic dates to the late Babylonian period. The story of Atrahasis comes from the early Babylonians. The even earlier story that (I think) Proton is referring to here is that of Ziusudra, an older than dirt Sumerian king. The story comes from an actual river flood that we absolutely know occurred in or around 2900 BCE.

Some reference:
www.flood-myth.com...
www.ancientworlds.net...

You can search out info on Ziusudra your ownselfs. Just stop bickering before it starts raining for forty days and nights!

Harte

Originally posted by eagle eye
I always smile when i see ppl saying Noah was 500 years old. I dont say its BS but i think about how this pesky SOB was soo elusive from death, must have been a real badluck when he died. think about it after 500 years old you died you like oh # nuuuuuuuu.

If that makes you smile, this should make you laugh out loud.

King Jame Version

Genesis 9:

28And Noah lived after the flood three hundred and fifty years.

29And all the days of Noah were nine hundred and fifty years: and he died.

That would mean that Abram (the father of the Hebrew nation) was alive (fifty something years old) when Noah died.

Originally posted by Harte
The Gilgamesh epic dates to the late Babylonian period. The story of Atrahasis comes from the early Babylonians. The even earlier story that (I think) Proton is referring to here is that of Ziusudra, an older than dirt Sumerian king. The story comes from an actual river flood that we absolutely know occurred in or around 2900 BCE

I don't think that is going to work for him. I've already tried it on the first page. You can follow the thread to see how that worked out.

Originally posted by Prot0n
Hmm really.
You do leave me wondering if you had bothered to read the article you've linked too. 1700BC is 18th century BC, not 19th. This is roughly around when the Atrahasis Epic was written, as per your link tell's us. Our earliest recorded Epic of Gilgamesh date's back to roughly 2100BC. That's a big difference compared to what your imagining. I'm unsure how someone who claims to have done such extensive research could overlook such an important detail as this. Exactly what does "extensive research" mean to you?

Here's a start. Original link on page one. "The Atrahasis Epic, named after its human hero, is a story from Mesopotamia that includes both a creation and a flood account. It was composed as early as the nineteenth century B.C.E." Which would mean that the Gilgamesh Epic and the Atrahasis Epic were roughly the same time period. One could easily have been copied from the other.
Second point- "early Babylonian version of about 1700 BC. This is a rough estimate, no one really knows for sure. As late as 1700, as early as 1900. All that we truly know is that the real King Gilgamesh ruled Uruk around 2700 B.C. and that the Epic(obviously) could not have come before. So basically, you need to provide an Epic that dates back before that. Again, I have tried to find anything of the sort, aside from Ziusudra that could placate you, and have been unsuccessful.

I am trying to find it for you as obviously you need alot of help with this concept of extensive research of yours.

Perhaps if you did something other than run your mouth(fingers, respectively) you might actually come up with some real evidence to support your claim of an older Epic. So far, you are found wanting. You come on here and tell me that there is something older, and yet when I try to give you examples, I "obviously don't understand the meaning of the words 'extensive research'" My "extensive research" has so far led me to the conclusion that you are full of hot air on this subject. Once again, when you have provided adequate proof of your claim I will humbly stand corrected. Until then, you have Atrahasis and Ziusudra to choose from. By the way, I don't think I really need to point out the hypocritical aspects of this statement:

It's really a shame people are so smug these days

This one pretty much stands on its own when placed in the context of your post. As a final bit of help, here is the breakdown from the various tablets, from which these stories originated to our knowlege, and when they are dated to. Maybe this will finally clear up the issue for you of which came first.
NIPPUR TABLET
...a flood will sweep over the cult centers;
To destroy the seed of mankind...
Is the decision, the word of the assembly of the gods.
By the word commanded by An and Enlil...
All the windstorms, exceedingly powerful, attacked as one,
At the same time, the flood sweeps over the cult centers.
After, for seven days and seven nights,
The flood had swept over the land,
And the huge boat had been tossed about by the windstorms on the great waters,
Utu came forth, who sheds light on heaven and earth,
Ziusudra opened a window on the huge boat,
The hero Utu brought his rays into the giant boat.
- Sumerian clay tablet, late 17th century BC
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
THE STORY OF ATRAHASIS
Enki made his voice heard...
Dismantle the house, build a boat
Reject possessions, and save living things.
The boat that you build...
Make upper and lower decks.
The tackle must be very strong,
The bitumen strong, to give it strength
I shall make rain fall on you here.
The Flood roared like a bull,
Like a wild ass screaming the winds
The darkness was total, there was no sun...
For seven days and seven nights
The torrent, storm and flood came on..
- Akkadian, ca. 1640 BC
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
continued in next post for character limit

[edit on 22-5-2006 by EdenKaia]

EPIC OF GILGAMESH

For six days and seven nights
The wind blew, flood and tempest overwhelmed the land;
When the seventh day arrived the tempest, flood and onslaught
Which had struggled like a woman in labor, blew themselves out.
The sea became calm, the imhullu-wind grew quiet, the flood held back.
I looked at the weather; silence reigned,
For all mankind had returned to clay...

I opened a porthole and light fell upon my cheeks..
Areas of land were emerging everywhere
The boat had come to rest on Mount Nimush.

- Assyrian, 7th century BC

Now, if we can get back to the subject at hand, I am still trying to figure out if we can deduce some sort of original story for the two myths to have been derived from. The evidence seems to point towards the idea that they were. Even other flood myths seem to have enough word for word comparisons to lend credence to this theory. Here is a link to some of them. Though the flood myths can generally refer to several different 'river floods' that occured in their respective areas(and most do) I do wonder if perhaps they didn't at least draw some of their "flare" from this supposed earlier myth? Anyway, for those interested, here is the link. Let me know what you think.

Word for Word Flood Myth Comparisons

Originally posted by EdenKaia
Now, if we can get back to the subject at hand, I am still trying to figure out if we can deduce some sort of original story for the two myths to have been derived from. The evidence seems to point towards the idea that they were. Even other flood myths seem to have enough word for word comparisons to lend credence to this theory.

Since no one is Jumpimg to assist, I will offer the following for your considerations.

1: Where is the Ark?

On Mt Ararat within Turkey?

2: Who was on it?

Noah, Shem, Ham, and Japheth.

3: Where did they Go?

en.wikipedia.org...

The children of Shem were Elam, Asshur, Aram, Arpachshad and Lud, in addition to daughters. In the New Testament, Luke lists the genealogy of Jesus from Adam through Shem, Abraham and David.

4: Who did Shems decendants become?

Shem was the progenitor of the south-western nations of Asia, being the father of Elam (Persia), Ashur (Assyria), Arpachshad or Arpachaxad (according to Josephus, Chaldea), from whom descended the Hebrews and Arabs, Lud (Lydia) and Aram (Syria).

Although both Jews and Arabic peoples derive their origins from Shem, the name Semitic is now almost exclusively used to refer to Jews.

5: Where did Abraham Live?

Ur, outside of Babylon.

6: What was he?

Sumerian?

www.sacred-texts.com...


So without an other 40 questions, I suggest this is the same story. And I would also remind you to review your original Post on this. You hit the matter on the head.

What would Gilgamesh, know about a vessel? It was some huge Box??? I suggest the Original Story is reflected in the account given within the Books of Moses. I am not saying they are the first recorded accounts, but the History is Adam through to Christ are the main charaters, and this pedigree is documented with FACTS that science can and regularly does confirm.

Shem, went to the Middle East, and became a ruler/leader post Flood. Maybe Gilgamesh is related, and the account offered in the Epic did occur as noted. Still, what would Gilgamesh know about a Boat? If his facts are true, and he visisted the Long Lived Pre Flood personage of Shem or Noah, would he have used this name, or one he was familiar with? He may well also, be a decedant. It is not out of the realm of possible.

Your Observation about these comparative vessels is excellent. Of course, Noah did not build a power boat nor sail boat, but a floatation device to weather a storm. Gilgamesh's box, would have sunk.

So, I suggest this is the same story. Just viewed from the prespectives of the each party. I would but more stock in the tale which maintains the families lineage though, but agree completely, that Gilgamesh may have put this to Clay, long before the Jewish peoples had this on Parchment or Scrolls.

Here's some questions that should be asked.

A; How much water would be needed in the Med Basin to position Noah's Ark, where we believe it maybe today?

B; Would this co-incide with the premise putforth with the Black Sea Deluge in time, and volume of water?

C; And wouldn't such a flood, effect the WHOLE MED BASIN, as well as the lands around the Black Sea through to the Lowest point of land in the Region, and then on.

(Anyone wish to answer these? BYRD?? Harte?? You are both up on this stuff!)

I would expect many problems would have arisen in the Caspian Sea area as well. Isn't this the Cradle of Civilization?

Hope the remarks are useful, and assist you in an answer.

Ciao

Shane

Originally posted by EdenKaia
Now, if we can get back to the subject at hand, I am still trying to figure out if we can deduce some sort of original story for the two myths to have been derived from.

Again, the problem is that the texts you're examining are among some of the earliest writing that we have. As you've found, the only earlier story that we have that's written down is the Eridu Genesis:
www.ianlawton.com...

Clues in that document indicate it's "Kit bashed" from older sources, but these sources don't appear as texts anywhere. This kind of story (the kit-bashed ones) appear when two different cultures meet.

Some of the tales listed above are apparently the result of merging more than two stories.

As was posted the phoenician language and alphabet preceeded the hebrew. Phoenicians were seafarers, traders than knew the currents and winds and made their fortunes based on this.
So, they travel from port to port spreading trade and gossip, stories of creation, floods, and beliefs.
Its no wonder so many cultures of that era share stories, myths, and beliefs.

Originally posted by toolman

As was posted the phoenician language and alphabet preceeded the hebrew. Phoenicians were seafarers, traders than knew the currents and winds and made their fortunes based on this.
So, they travel from port to port spreading trade and gossip, stories of creation, floods, and beliefs.
Its no wonder so many cultures of that era share stories, myths, and beliefs.

But to say this would imply that every port or city they ever came to would have adopted their stories and beliefs in lieu of any they may have had on their own. What is the likelihood of this happening on such a grand scale? Granted, many flood stories are similar, but there are only a few which seem to have many word for word references, and those all originate in or around ancient Mesopotamia.
Flood myths of the world

Catholic scholars date Noah's flood to circa 2950 BC while Protestants prefer circa 2345 BC. Why two different dates? The Catholic Bible is in part derived from the Septuaginta written in Greek by Jews for Jews at Alexandria, Egypt in the 3rd century BC. The ages of the pre-flood patriarchs _differ_ from the ages preserved in the Protestant Bible which is derived from a Medieval Massoretic text. Thus the Septuagint places Creation at 5192 BC and the Protestant text at 4004 BC (using archbishop James Ussher's chronology worked out circa 1650 AD). There is "some" agreement in that both Catholic and Protestant dates fall in the 3rd millennium BC for Noah's Flood. The earliest allusion to the Mesopotamian Flood found in the Epics of Atrahasis and Gilgamesh is circa 1600 BC. This date is interesting as some Conservative Bible scholars understand Moses wrote Genesis and the Flood account and he is understood to have done this during teh Exodus dated by Catholics at circa 1512 BC and Protestants at 1446 BC (a hundred years or less than the earliest Mesopotamian account of ca. 1600 BC). Scholars are amazed that the sequence of events in the Bible and Mesopotamian accounts are similar (each hero releases a sequence of three birds to test the emergence of land before debarking the boat). At the conclusion of a 600 year interval of time the Mesopotamian "Noah" (called Ziusudra, Atrahasis or Utnapishtim) is warned by his god to build a great boat to save the seed of mankind and animals. In the 600th year of Noah the flood arrives. Some scholars suggest we have a polythesitic and monotheistic version of a real event (although details vary). The issue in the "search for the truth" is was there really a flood that covered the tops of the highest mountains by 15 cubits (Ge 7:20)? Geologists say there is no evidence of a universal flood in the 3rd millennium BC (in fact there is no universal flood evidence anywhere in the ancient Near East from the 10th-1st millenniums BC). So both Mesopotamian and Bible accounts are _wrong_ about a universal Flood occurring. However, the Mesopotamian account does state that the Flood hero was living in Shuruppak when his god warned him to build a big boat. Shuruppak has been identified with Tell Fara south of Babylon and it was excavated in 1931. Only _one_ "Flood" layer was found at the site, and it brought to a close the "Jamdet Nasr Era" dated circa 3200-2800 BC. This flood was dated circa 2900/2800 BC by the excavator. So, Archaeology and Geology _confirmed_ a Flood had taken place at Shuruappak IN THE THIRD MILLENNIUM, _THE SAME MILLENNIUM_ THE BIBLE DATES THE EVENT TO (Catholic 2950 BC Protestant 2345 BC). This flood was quite local, it did not cover all of Lower Mesopotamia, only the vicinity of Tell Fara. How did a "local" flood become a "universal" flood? Perhaps the word kur was misunderstood? Kur can mean mountain, land, country or underworld. Temple ziggurats, understood to be artifical mountains were also called kur. So a flooded kur (land) in the original Sumerian account became in later ages via either a misunderstanding or deliberate playfullness (word-punning)a flooded kur (mountain) and thus if a mountain was flooded, ergo all the mountains on the earth would have been flooded too.

Through an oversight I neglected to mention that the 2900/2800 BC Flood deposit found at Tell Fara (ancient Shuruppak) was determined to be from a flooding Euphrates river and its irrigation canals network in the area. A damaged limestone bas-relief was excavated at Fara showing two men rowing a boat with fish swimming beneath it, this carving is dated to the Early Dynastic IIIa period, ca. 2600-2500 BC, just 300/200 years _after_ the Shuruppak flood of 2900/2800 BC. "_If_" this carving commemorates the Flood Hero and family in his boat, then the Sumerian prototype for what was to later become Noah's _Ark_ in the Bible exists for all to behold. At my website, www.bibleorigins.net I have posted a photo of this craft illustrating the pre-biblical origins of the Noah's Flood story.

At my website, www.bibleorigins.net I have posted a photo of this craft illustrating the pre-biblical origins of the Noah's Flood story

I had a look for this picture but couldn't find it
any help ?

Perhaps the word kur was misunderstood?

its not the word Kur that was misunderstood
its the word Ki
which to the sumerians meant earth as in mud/earth under your feet but to the Hebrews meant Earth as in "planet earth"
pretty easy mistake to make
the church of course maximised on the error deliberately
but I expect you already know that
in the earlier accounts of the flood (namely all of them) it doesnt say anywhere that the entire earth was covered
the precedent for that is set with Noah and the Hebrew redactors of the story written around 600bce
but they did have a very nice library to plaguiarise it all from



[edit on 19-11-2006 by Marduk]

Try the following url for the picture (scroll down for the photo):

www.bibleorigins.net...

I think its a bit of a stretch to claim that has anything to do whatsoever with Noah or his earlier incarnations
most of the Mesopotamian gods had boats
and boat traffic was the way of commerce in the country
so unless the tablet specifically says upon it this is the boat of Ziusudra then this evidence just doesnt stand up
sorry

At one point in history, the bible was something that was completely brand new, that contained revolutionary and then unheard of ideas. If the bible contained nothing but revolutionary and unheard of ideas, it would have been immediately dismissed by its original audience as being too fanciful. The bible, in order to sell its brand new ideas of a single omnipotent and omniscient god, and its revolutionary moral code, had to incorporate ideas and stories that would be familiar and accepted by its original audience, while at the same time using these familiar elements to reinforce the new ideas. The bible thus included stories that were known and accepted for centuries, like Noah's arc, and reworked them demonstrate and reinforce its ideas of theology and law. In the Biblical Noah's arc, a single ominipotent and omniscient god, punishes the world for violating his absolute moral law. While in the Sumerian version, a flood is caused by one (or more) of the gods in the pantheon for some capricious reason.

In the Biblical Noah's arc, a single ominipotent and omniscient god, punishes the world for violating his absolute moral law. While in the Sumerian version, a flood is caused by one (or more) of the gods in the pantheon for some capricious reason.

in the Biblical Noahs ark a single ominipotent and omniscient god, punishes the world for not doing as he wanted and is annoyed
While in the Sumerian version, a flood is caused by Enlil because he is annoyed at humanity for being too noisy
lets get this clear
the Bible at no time was brand new, it consists of lightly adapted books from earlier cultures and characters based on people who actually existed except the people who actually existed had different names and weren't Hebrew

Noahs Ark is merely the latest in along line of stories on the same theme
the version that appears in the bible was lifted directly from Gilgamesh as you can see by this side by side comparison

Gilgamesh: -
When a seventh day arrived
I sent forth a dove and released it.
The dove went off, but came back to me;
no perch was visible so it circled back to me.

Genesis 7
8 And he sent forth a dove from him, to see if the waters were abated from off the face of the ground. 9 But the dove found no rest for the sole of her foot, and she returned unto him to the ark, for the waters were on the face of the whole earth

Gilgamesh
I sent forth a raven and released it.
The raven went off, and saw the waters slither back.
It eats, it scratches, it bobs, but does not circle back to me.

Genesis 7
7 And he sent forth a raven, and it went forth to and fro, until the waters were dried up from off the earth

if this were to happen thesedays then Mr Ezekiel of Babylon would find himself very quickly in trouble for copyright violation

this is why i find it extremely funny every few years when some idiot once again claims to have found Noahs ark on Arrarat

The "capricious reason" was that the Sumerian god Enlil (Akkadian Ellil) at Nippur objected to mankind's noise which prevented him from sleeping by night and resting by day. The Atrahasis myth noted that man had been created to replace the Igigi gods who toiled "night and day" for 40 years in Enlil's garden, clearing its irrigation ditches of clogging sediments. They were very noisey, complaining of their grievous toil but this got them nowhere. Enlil just ignored the noise. When the Igigi revolt and burn their tools and surround his house at Nippur then the cowardly Enlil is ready to "negotiate" and address their grievances over the burdensome toil. Man will be created to replace them. The leader of Igigi revolt is slain and his flesh and blood mixed in the clay "animating or giving life" to man. With man's creation we are told that the "clamor or noise" of the Igigi is _transferred_ to man. In other words man's noise _is that of the Igigi_, protesting the burdensome work and Enlil's refusal to allow man to enter into the rest from agricultural toil enjoyed by the previously "noisey" Igigi gods. Instead of giving man a rest as enjoyed by the gods, he is to be annihilated by the gods with a flood. In the Mesopotamian flood account then MAN IS THE VICTIM of callous ruthless gods who mercilessly exploit him, giving him no rest from toil, _whereas_ the Hebrew account has a SINFUL, evil-hearted mankind "shedding much blood" that is to be destroyed by a righteous outraged God with a universal flood. That is to say the Hebrews have presented a _counter-argument_ to the Mesopotamian account of WHY a flood was sent to destroy mankind. They also offer another _counter-argument_, the Mesopotamians understand man was created to a slave and work in the gods' gardens providing them food to eat (replacing the Igigi garden-laborers). Yahweh does NOT make man to be his slave to provide him food, the garden of Eden is for man's nourishment not God's. The Mesopotamians understand man does not possess immortality because man (Adapa) was OBEDIENT and refused to eat the bread and water offered him by Anu in heaven. His god Ea of Eridu on the earth had warned him NOT TO EAT the "bread of death" or drink the "water of death" which would be offered by Anu or he would surely die. So man (Adapa) refused to consume the items which would have given him and mankind immortality. Man lost out on a chance for immortality because he OBEYED his _lying god_ who did not want him to have immortality. The Hebrew's _counter-argument_ is that man lost out on immortality because he DISOBEYED and ate the forbidden food. For the Mesopotamians MAN IS THE VICTIM of unscrupulous gods who made him to exploit him versus the Hebrew _counter-argument_ that a loving, caring GOD IS THE VICTIM of a rebellious and ungrateful mankind. For the Mesopotamians then, there is _NO FALL FROM GRACE OF MAN_ as appears with Christianity's interpretation. (1) Man (Adapa) did NOT DISOBEY, he Obeyed and lost out on obtaining immortality. (2) The gods NEVER expell man from their earthly city gardens, for who will plant the seed, hoe the weeds, harvest the produce and prepare it for the gods' consumption if man is expelled? The gods will have to do all this, a task they dreaded, hence the reason they created man to replace themselves as laborers upon the earth. The Bible then is presenting apparently another _counter-argument_ to the Mesopotamian "creation-of-man myths, of why he was created, what his purpose in life is, why he does not have immortality, and why his demise was sought in a global flood. Point-by-point the Hebrews _refute, deny and challenge_ the Mesopotamian creation-of-man myths.