It looks like you're using an Ad Blocker.

Please white-list or disable AboveTopSecret.com in your ad-blocking tool.

Thank you.

 

Some features of ATS will be disabled while you continue to use an ad-blocker.

 

Noah vs. Utnapishtim (Bible and Gilgamesh)

page: 1
3
<<   2  3  4 >>

log in

join
share:

posted on May, 19 2006 @ 01:06 AM
link   
I have heard(seen) many state on this site that the Biblical Noah story is in fact a direct plagiarism of the Sumerian Flood myth. Personally, I am of a neutral opinion, but I thought I would just disect this particular issue for a moment. Noah's Ark was built over a long, realistic period of time, Utnapishtim's Ark was built in a matter of days. Noah's Ark was built logically to withstand the pressure and force of viscious waves for a long period of time. Viewing the dimensions, Utnapishtim's Ark would have been cubed shaped, perfect and ideal for space, however not very seaworthy unless you don't mind being slammed around like a ragdoll with each roll of the sea. There is also the issue of Utnapishtim's name translating in Hebrew as, "He who walks as a pillar of righteousness."
There is much to be said for both sides of this argument, and I will be going much more in depth as I see what the other members think. Many believe that these consistancies and similarities betweem the two stories are because both are based on a PREVIOUS source. Following this logic, you might assume that Noah's account might be more plausible for the Hebrew's tendency to pass down their history as accurately as possible. Even today, many scholars would view the Bible passages as historic, while the Sumerian myth is considered merely that-mythology. I have been able to find sources supporting this 'previous document' theory, but have yet been unable to find anything solid regarding an actual story. Anything useful in this instance would be appreciated.



[edit on 19-5-2006 by EdenKaia]




posted on May, 19 2006 @ 01:54 AM
link   
I tend to go along with the "borrowed from the Babylonians" theory because of the age of the Utnapishtim tale (much older than Noah) and the "Babylonian captivity" timeframe. When stories are borrowed, they don't get the exact details down... they're changed according to the culture.

Such "kit-bashed" (my term, from modeling hobby) tales are common when you have two peoples mixing together. The Cindarella tale is one such, and there are many more examples of this.

Ashliman's site is probably THE classic one to do research on:
www.pitt.edu...

I've seen some pretty odd ones created from local folktales kit-bashed with Christianity. I wish I'd kept a link to that strange one about St Peter and the Garden of Eden.

...and actually, now that I look, the Bible doesn't say how long it took to build the Ark. Remember we're dealing with an oral story that wasn't written down until nearly 1,000 years after the tale of Utnapishtim. (The Pentateuch was, according to many sources, written between 700 BC and 500 BC: www.jcsm.org... and the Babylonian tales date much earlier (predates 1700 BC.)



posted on May, 19 2006 @ 04:28 AM
link   
"And Noah was five hundred years old: and Noah begat Shem, Ham, and Japheth."

"In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, in the second month, the seventeenth day of the month, the same day were all the fountains of the great deep broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened."

From this you can get a rough estimate of when the Ark might have been built, and maybe how long it would have taken. And it is true that the existing story of the Sumerian flood myth that we have from the Nippur Tablet is FAR older than any copy of Genesis, but how many times are stories told and then retold before they finally get written down? It is widely believed, as has been addressed, that the tablet itself is only recording a story already old, the same could be true of Noah. Also, the similarities between these two stories are more closely tied than any other account of the same flood from any other culture. This lends more to the theory of a previous source. It is this source that I am trying to find some information on.



posted on May, 19 2006 @ 04:40 AM
link   
Don't forget that the the Genesis account is an amalgamation of 2 different versions of the Noah story



Once again in the Noah story there are two different accounts of events. In the P version the animals go on the ark two by two. This is the version every one remembers. The J version specifies that there be seven of each clean animal, and two of the unclean. (7:2)Clean and unclean refers to the dietary laws laid out in Leviticus. In J it rains for forty days and nights then stops, and it takes 21 days for the waters to recede. In P it rains for 150 days (8:3), and the waters are on the ground for a year and eleven days. (8:13,14) If you read the account of the Flood and didn't notice this, do be dismayed. Almost everyone misses it until someone points it out.


www.ou.edu...



posted on May, 19 2006 @ 07:53 AM
link   

Originally posted by EdenKaia
"And Noah was five hundred years old: and Noah begat Shem, Ham, and Japheth."

"In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, in the second month, the seventeenth day of the month, the same day were all the fountains of the great deep broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened."

From this you can get a rough estimate of when the Ark might have been built, and maybe how long it would have taken.


Any time during that hundred years (which, again, is legendary. There's no evidence that they lived that long, any more than there is evidence that Eridu Aululim reigned 28,800 years as king in Sumera (although their sacred tablets say that he did.)
www.csun.edu...

They also give a different date for the Flood than theWhil Christian Bible does.


This lends more to the theory of a previous source. It is this source that I am trying to find some information on.


That's not going to be a fruitful search -- the Sumerians were the first literate people and that was slightly before the Egyptians developed a system of writing:
www.ling.ed.ac.uk...

There are pictograph and petroglyph and image art from much older times in Egypt that show boats, but none of them seems associated with animals being gathered onto a boat or a family and animals. Ditto the Tigris Valley.
www.artsales.com...

(however, it's the North American material that I'm mostly familiar with, and that's strictly at a non-scholar level.)



posted on May, 19 2006 @ 08:08 AM
link   
Essan, the problem with bringing up any Biblical account of anything is that there are many people who do not believe the Bible. I think maybe you should take a diiferent tact and let the readers make up their own minds.

Compare and contrast the story of Noah with the story of Utnapishtim. Do not try to prove anything, just present the facts. I look forward to reading your research.



posted on May, 19 2006 @ 08:20 AM
link   




I would not agree that Biblical stories can be used as Historical facts. Same goes for Qu'ran stories, and all other folklore.



posted on May, 19 2006 @ 08:28 AM
link   

Originally posted by darkelf
Essan, the problem with bringing up any Biblical account of anything is that there are many people who do not believe the Bible. I think maybe you should take a diiferent tact and let the readers make up their own minds.

Compare and contrast the story of Noah with the story of Utnapishtim. Do not try to prove anything, just present the facts. I look forward to reading your research.


But the point is: which story of Noah? There are 2 different ones.



posted on May, 19 2006 @ 08:35 AM
link   

Originally posted by Essan
But the point is: which story of Noah? There are 2 different ones.


Use both. Give your source and call one Noah A, then give the source and call the other Noah B. You could even start by comparing and contrasting the two Noah stories. Then compare and contrast to the Utnapishtim story.



posted on May, 19 2006 @ 11:12 AM
link   
Summerian civilization - 5,000BC

Hewbrew's - 1500BC

5000
-1500
-------
3500 years difference.


Doesn't take a mathmatician.

[EDIT] Doesn't take a genius to see the point either.

[edit on 19-5-2006 by Prot0n]



posted on May, 19 2006 @ 11:44 AM
link   
Sooo?

What's your point?



posted on May, 20 2006 @ 04:14 AM
link   

Originally posted by Prot0n
Summerian civilization - 5,000BC

Hewbrew's - 1500BC

5000
-1500
-------
3500 years difference.


Doesn't take a mathmatician.


If this is your sole argument for the point, I'm afraid it falls short. There is no evidence that states that the oldest recorded record of Noah's story is the very first time it was ever told. I have said before that there are MANY instances in which time will pass and stories will be told without ever actually being written down. They pass through word of mouth, and this is actually quite a common method of storytelling in the era we are describing. There are also the inconsistances of conveyance theory, which states that history tends to dilute into mythology, not the other way around, which would have had to happen here to make the Sumerian myth the original. Also keep in mind that this biblical story was supposedly edited from older sources by Moses, who though five hundred years after the time, can accurately describe the landscape by which this all would have occured centuries before. Genesis 10:19 gives matter-of-fact directions, ‘as you go toward Sodom and Gomorrah and Admah and Zeboiim’. These were the cities of the plain God destroyed 500 years before Moses' time. Yet this is described in a time of well know, landmarks, and before it was under the Dead Sea.


Comparing the Arks

This is a link that very adequately describes the mathematics, as you would say, of the two Arks in their respective stories. Now, keep in mind as you read this article that the measurements are taken directly from those quoted in the stories. As you can clearly see, the Sumerian Ark is found wanting in many aspects. Now, either the original measurements(the more logical and realistic measurements) were misconstrewed as the story was passed into the Sumerian culture, the stories were BOTH taken from an original source, which would account for the discrepancies, or finally, that the Gods of the Sumerian Epic were very poor seafarers. You decide.



posted on May, 20 2006 @ 08:51 AM
link   
You know, that's all very very very interesting and all, we're still left with the itty bitty problem that there is no record of our beloved hebrews anywhere untill the 1500's BC. Interstingly, there were civilizations with written language well before this. Obviously. No records of the hebrew culture cropping up anywhere, no artifact's, no ... nothing. The early hebrew people were nomadic, teh first mention by the egyptians wasn't untill roughly 1300's BC, I am allowing 1500's for an oral history/beginings despite no evidence of a monothestic hebrew culture existing then. Guess I'm abit more lienent then historians. There is evidence that the early hebrew culture were more polythestic untill comming into contact with the egyptian culture durring the period of atenism, pretty much the first monothesitic religion. Sure, you could sit there and have yourself believe what your saying, they were around before the gilgamesh story so nanana poo poo on you. I'm sure your very happy believing that way, ignorance is bliss after all. I'm not that great at explaining thing's or educating people, actually can't really stand trying too. You seem like a man of faith, so I don't really expect you to rush out to the nearest school and as for an edumacation, chances are you'd just scoff at what your being taught anyways and scream at the top of your lungs that what your learning isn't in the bible and can't possibly be true.

To each his own. But here's a start just in case, even the gilgamesh flood story is derived from an older flood story.



posted on May, 20 2006 @ 09:49 AM
link   
I always smile when i see ppl saying Noah was 500 years old. I dont say its BS but i think about how this pesky SOB was soo elusive from death, must have been a real badluck when he died. think about it after 500 years old you died you like oh # nuuuuuuuu.



posted on May, 20 2006 @ 02:32 PM
link   

Originally posted by Prot0n
You know, that's all very very very interesting and all, we're still left with the itty bitty problem that there is no record of our beloved hebrews anywhere untill the 1500's BC. Interstingly, there were civilizations with written language well before this. Obviously. No records of the hebrew culture cropping up anywhere, no artifact's, no ... nothing. The early hebrew people were nomadic, teh first mention by the egyptians wasn't untill roughly 1300's BC, I am allowing 1500's for an oral history/beginings despite no evidence of a monothestic hebrew culture existing then. Guess I'm abit more lienent then historians. There is evidence that the early hebrew culture were more polythestic untill comming into contact with the egyptian culture durring the period of atenism, pretty much the first monothesitic religion. Sure, you could sit there and have yourself believe what your saying, they were around before the gilgamesh story so nanana poo poo on you. I'm sure your very happy believing that way, ignorance is bliss after all. I'm not that great at explaining thing's or educating people, actually can't really stand trying too. You seem like a man of faith, so I don't really expect you to rush out to the nearest school and as for an edumacation, chances are you'd just scoff at what your being taught anyways and scream at the top of your lungs that what your learning isn't in the bible and can't possibly be true.
To each his own. But here's a start just in case, even the gilgamesh flood story is derived from an older flood story.


First off, let me be the first to say that when I argue a point, it is ALWAYS from a neutral standpoint, and the side I choose to argue is almost always a devil's advocate role. This enables me to thoroughly exhaust the research to get the most complete understanding of a subject. Now, I'm not going to lower myself to the childish level on which you have placed yourself, but judging from your own one-sided statements, it seems that it is YOU who cannot distance yourself from the point at hand and create an open mind. Moving on.
As you have said, there is evidence that the Hebrew people were originally polytheistic, just as there is evidence that they were a nomadic people that came to Egypt early in their history, which is why we derive so much from their writings. On which, there is the word Hebrew, which has been connected to the Egyptian word 'Hiberu'. This was found in writing sent to Egypt by one of the small states that Egypt had left behind when it withdrew from Canaan around 1300. This speaks of nomadic tribes that flooded over the land over a few generations. This word 'Hiberu" means 'outsider' and could have referred to a wide variety of different immigrants, but considering that you, yourself would give the Hebrew this timeframe,

The early hebrew people were nomadic, teh first mention by the egyptians wasn't untill roughly 1300's BC
(I assume this was the mention you refer to) then it is easy to surmise that being a nomadic culture, they existed ELSEWHERE before coming to Egypt. It IS widely known that the Sumerians were the first that we know of to develope a legitimate system of writing, shortly followed by the Egyptions. Without a system of writing, how did these nomadic tribes record and pass down their histories and stories? Word of mouth. "The Semitic languages are closely related. For example “A survey of the first 100 Phoenician words in the dictionary shows that 82 percent have the same meaning in Hebrew. Between Ugaritic[14] and Hebrew the figure is about 79 percent.” This is an exerpt from a David Steinburg history of language paper. The Phoenicians left so few written records of their own achievements, their history has been pieced together from records of all the other nations with which they came in contact, either through trade or through battle. Other information has been gathered from the work of archaeologists whose digging have unearthed tombs of their rulers or what little is left of their cities. This is taken from another paper. The point is, that the Phoenicians inhabit the region of modern Lebanon and Syria from about 3000 BC, which when you account for the vast similarity in the Hebrew language as a varient of Phoenician, you can begin to surmise that the Hebrews might have either originated here, or had inhabited the area for some time. All I am trying to say is just because the Egyptians' first encounter with this people was around 1300 B.C, doesn't mean that is when the people first began to appear. I didn't see Star Wars until I was twelve years old. Doesn't really mean that was when the movie came out now does it?



[edit on 20-5-2006 by EdenKaia]



posted on May, 20 2006 @ 02:41 PM
link   

To each his own. But here's a start just in case, even the gilgamesh flood story is derived from an older flood story.


This is also precisely my point. I concur that these stories are most likely not forged from each other, but more likely an earlier myth. I assume the one you refer to is the Akkadian story?
After Anu, Enlil, Enki, and Ninhursag
had fashioned the black-headed people,
Vegetation sprang from the earth,
Animals, four-legged creatures of the plain,
Were brought artfully into existence
[37 lines are unreadable]
After the....of kingship had been lowered from heaven
After the exalted crown and the throne of kingship
Had been lowered from heaven,
He perfected the rites and exalted the divine ordinances...
He founded the five cities in pure places,...
Then did Nintu weep like a....
The pure Inanna set up a lament for its people,
Enki took council with himself,
Anu, Enlil, Enki, and Ninhursag....
The gods of heaven and earth uttered the name of Anu and Enlil
Then did Ziusudra, the king, the priest of...,
Build a giant...;
Humbly obedient, reverently he...
Attending daily, constantly he...,
Bringing forth all kinds of dreams, he...,
Uttering the name of heaven and earth, he...[...]
the gods a wall...,
Ziusudra, standing at its side, listened.
"Stand by the wall at my left side...,
By the wall I will say a word to you,
Take my word,
Give ear to my instructions:
By our...a flood will sweep over the cult-centers;
To destroy the seed of mankind...,
Is the decision, the word of the assembly of the gods.
By the word commanded by Anu and Enlil...,
Its kingship, its rule will be put to an end.
[about 40 lines missing]
All the windstorms, exceedingly powerful,
Attacked as one,
At the same time, the flood sweeps over the cult-centers.
After, for seven days,
the flood sweeps over the cult centers.
After, for seven days and seven nights,
The flood had swept over the land,
And the huge boat had been tossed
About by the windstorms on the great waters,
Utu came forth, who sheds light on heaven and earth,
Ziusudra opened a window of the huge boat,
The hero Utu brought his rays into the giant boat.
Ziusudra, the king,
Prostrated himself before Utu


I am well aware, but thank you for pointing that out.



posted on May, 20 2006 @ 02:51 PM
link   

Originally posted by eagle eye
I always smile when i see ppl saying Noah was 500 years old. I dont say its BS but i think about how this pesky SOB was soo elusive from death, must have been a real badluck when he died. think about it after 500 years old you died you like oh # nuuuuuuuu.


Who knows? He might have WELCOMED death after tolerating flood, famine, wives, children, etc... Seriously, GET ME THE HELL OUTTA HERE!



posted on May, 20 2006 @ 05:01 PM
link   
No no, an older summerian myth. The akkadian myth is also dependent on the summerian myth, just as the noah myth. The akkadian "account" was also written before the biblical account. Right, so what were you aware of? Again, I can't recall the name of the text, I just remember the myth pre-dates the gilgamesh story.



posted on May, 20 2006 @ 05:28 PM
link   

Originally posted by Prot0n
No no, an older summerian myth. The akkadian myth is also dependent on the summerian myth, just as the noah myth. The akkadian "account" was also written before the biblical account. Right, so what were you aware of? Again, I can't recall the name of the text, I just remember the myth pre-dates the gilgamesh story.


Here is the link to the story you are talking about

Atrahasis Epic

Considering that this is the only other Sumerian flood account aside from that in the Epic of Gilgamesh, I can't imagine that you could have meant any other. This is what I meant when I said I was aware of the myth that Gilgamesh was probably based on. Again, this is dated to roughly 19th century B.C. Either way, see my last post. That argument still stands. Personally, I tend to agree that the Bible is copied largely from other sources, but again, I like to play the other side. Usually, it makes for more interesting conversation and you'd be surprised at the amount of interesting knowledge that is begotten from it. Have a nice day.



posted on May, 20 2006 @ 05:39 PM
link   
Well that's all fine and dandy and all, that myth was written after the epic of gilgamesh, as I repeated before, there is an older text of which I can't remember the name that pre-dates the gilgamesh myth. The text your talking about was written after gilgamesh but prior to the biblical account. I saw this older text in a documentary a few months back. Just wish I could remember the name, would make searching for it easier as I'm sure your probably to smug to do so yourself.



new topics

top topics



 
3
<<   2  3  4 >>

log in

join