President Bush to Militarize Border?

I just have to ask, why is my question about the stigma attached to the word "illegal" a "weak" argument? Just because it doesn't resonate with you to treat people from all walks of life with respect despite what they do? Why do you think that these professional media groups would issue a PR report discussing their guidelines if they felt their position was stupid and "weak"?

Is it that much to ask to reconsider what the word "illegals" mean? Did you truly read what they were trying to say? Or do you have preconceived ideas so much so about the word "illegal" that you cannot see it any other way?

And if the word "illegal" was placed beside Russians or Polish or Irish, would you feel differently about the term?

I wonder why the term "illegal" is acceptable for only people of South American or Mexican descent when describing the problem of illegal immigration. I mention this because I am fascinated by the fact that no one talks about Russian or Polish undocumented workers in such harsh terms. Is it solely about Mexico? Is that the true problem here?

Is it hard to give hard-working people who had to escape extreme circumstances from their country and had to endure quite a lot to get to America despite breaking the law a little dignity?

Or can people justify their lack of empathy and ruthlessness in their attitudes toward the subject of immigration?

But this is certainly, not a "Woe is me!" argument. I just asked who coined the term "illegals" to describe a group of people who reside inside the United States. And I asked, why this term is used by the United States citizens in such a manner to dehumanize undocumented workers?

I do implore that someone just answer the questions. These inquiries are ones that I would like to be addressed because these are the most common things that come up in each thread about immigration.


P.S. I've been called worse. So do not worry. I accept your apology.



[edit on 24-5-2006 by ceci2006]

ceci,
I really respect your opinion so i will take a shot at the questions you asked if that is OK?

As for Illegal Alien only being used in reference to Mexicans and other latinos, I would venture do to the numbers only. (the Largest Single Migration in the History of the World) No one is discussing the MUCH smaller number of "other" illegal aliens. They are that as well because it is the term that most accurately describes their situation.

As for you argument being weak, not weak, just very typically liberal and incorrect. Assigning a name to a group of individuals that has no connection to race, religion or sex, and is a correct definition of their current status, is not in anyway wrong.

As for the professional media sources you quote, I have read them and they are all the MOST incredibly liberal news sources I have seen on here. They of course would not like us calling them anything except loving brothers. Sorry but give me some good ol' USA conservative news quotes. Anyway, the mere fact a liberal is quoting liberal sources does not really go very far in substantiating your position.

There is no "lack of empathy" and certainly no "ruthlessness" in using a name to describe a group of criminals entering the US. They become criminals when they set foot on our side illegally.

Finally, I have read nothing on this thread in which any other poster is dehumanizing the Illegals. What I am reading is people that want the situation fixed, and a desperate situation it is becoming, and refuse to allow liberals to "bandy" the situation down to the "Big Old USA" being cruel to our friends and brothers. They are not my brothers, to my knowledge I have no relatives in Mexico and all I ask of them is do it Legally.


As they commit a crime when coming here, would you rather we call them "Criminal Aliens?"

Yes, I agree that they committed a crime. But are there not degrees to criminal action? How is the crime of illegal immigration ranked, compared to something like, mass murder?

So, if you really dislike undocumented workers as criminals, I wonder how you would see Ted Bundy or the BTK Killer?

Better yet, what do you consider the worst crime? I know I can think of a lot of more terrible crimes than crossing over the border.

Originally posted by ceci2006
Yes, I agree that they committed a crime. But are there not degrees to criminal action? How is the crime of illegal immigration ranked, compared to something like, mass murder?

So, if you really dislike undocumented workers as criminals, I wonder how you would see Ted Bundy or the BTK Killer?

Better yet, what do you consider the worst crime? I know I can think of a lot of more terrible crimes than crossing over the border.

I agree totally. And I must correct you, I do not like or dislike Illegals, They are simply Illegal. I want it to stop, but they are absolutely welcome in this country legally.

And I rate it exactly as it is, a violation of Federal Statute.

Those 'undocumented' are actually 'highly documented' with fraudulent documents our government readily accepts.

Calling an illegal alien an undocumented immigrant is like calling a burglar an uninvited house guest.

"Title 8 section 1325 of the USC states:

* Enters or attempts to enter the United States at any time or place other than as designated by immigration officers; or
* Eludes examination or inspection by immigration officers; or
* Attempts to enter or obtains entry to the United States by a willfully false or misleading representation or the willful concealment of a material fact;

has committed a federal crime.

Violations are punishable by criminal fines and imprisonment for up to six months. Repeat offenses can bring up to two years in prison. Additional civil fines may be imposed at the discretion of immigration judges, but civil fines do not negate the criminal sanctions or nature of the offense.

Key word Federal Crime.

All right. That's also fair on the legal side of things. But how do you think law enforcement or the INS is going to process all 12 to 15 million of the illegal immigrants?

HAHAHAHAHAHA

Now there we have common ground. Talk about an impossible task.

Lets face it, the problem is so out of control now that there is no way to effectively process, move or even expel that many people. Many of whom now have families and established careers.

No, I never said I have all the answers and you sure got that on on me.

Way to go!..

I'm glad that you think so, but I still wonder then if putting the national guard on the border is a good thing then? You have to deal with the 12 to 15 million undocumented workers that are here and have families (and jobs). And deporting them is going to be a nightmare. And arresting them for breaking the law is going to be a lot of trouble. And what would you do about their kids who are American citizens?

What else can you do?

Is that why there is a lot of frustration?

[edit on 25-5-2006 by ceci2006]

That is exactly it.

That and putting UNARMED soldiers there. As bad as putting armed troops there, to disarm a soldier is the height of frustration and is going to cause all kinds of problems.

I don't think they will be dealing with 12M, thats a conservative number of how many are living here, not the number crossing each day. I believe the administrations first goal is to stop anymore from coming across. Well to slow it down significantly anyway.

As for the children born here. Who knows??? They are after all American citizens even as much as some would like to change that, it is what it is. They should have full rights and responsibilities. I wish I had the answers, but if I did I probably would not have to get up in a minute and put on a uniform.

Did anyone notice the senate vote today?

I'm wondering why this event has not recieved its own thread.

As a subscriber to the belief in the NWO/Illuminati et el It all fits for me, the middle class in America is being quashed, eliminated.

NAFTA and and other trade agreements are eliminating good paying jobs and its not by chance, there is a well thought out effort taking place and most people are totally oblivious.

From what I hear, the troops (National Guard) will not actually be on the physical border but in support positions to relieve other border patrol personel for duty.

But I think its all a ruse.

I once thought that bush was an honorable man, above the frey and beyond the possibility of conspiracy. I don't see that now.

Socialism flurishes amidst poverty and low wages...and thats the long term goal.

John

I pray that bill doesn't pass the House. Should it pass the House later today, all hell's going to break loose I'm afraid. I fear what may be beginning isn't something that's going to easily go away. The American People won't take a bill like that very lightly, since we've been vehemently opposed to such a bill for as long as I can remember.

That's like pardoning every single mass murderer just because you wanted to. Since when is giving criminals the rights of full citizenship a good thing? They didn't even work for it. They just came across illegally, without any concern at all for those trying to get in legally, which by the way, have to stay where they are, unless they're smart and come over here now while the gettin's good. Illegal's illegal, no matter how you cut it. Let's not start aligning ourselves with the criminals, else anarchy will start. Should anarchy start, I can't see any recourse but to fight. That's a scary scenario, and one I don't want to dwell on.

Again, I pray that this bill doesn't pass the House. I hope you do the same, for the sake of the People.

TheBorg

Is this the bill you are refering too, because it just got thumbs up.

www.cnn.com...

Yes, that's it. It still has to go to the House for final apporval, and I hope it dies there. We can't have that becoming law.

TheBorg

Brace yourselves for amnesty because we all know its going to happen in one fashion or another. Congress knows there is much more chance of 12,000,000 illegals rioting and causing upheaval than there is of REAL americans rioting due to an amnesty bill. It is the lesser of 2 evils in their minds. If they feared US as much as they fear them then maybe we could get something done. Anyone that voted for that senate bill is a traitor to this country and should be treated accordingly. We will all take this right in the behind just like we always do and will do nothing about it but mumble for a few weeks and then go back to our nice single family house in the suburbs, our 2.2 kids and our SUV. They know that and thats what they are counting on....

ageed on that, would be like saying its ok to break the law.

Originally posted by Escrotumus
Brace yourselves for amnesty because we all know its going to happen in one fashion or another. Congress knows there is much more chance of 12,000,000 illegals rioting and causing upheaval than there is of REAL americans rioting due to an amnesty bill. It is the lesser of 2 evils in their minds.

Yes, the chances of the illegals taking the first step to riot is probably true. But I think the backlash from America would be swift and bloody. The illegals would lose any political support they might currently have.

Anyone that voted for that senate bill is a traitor to this country and should be treated accordingly.

Agreed. The House is mainly against this bill, from what I've seen.

The biggest condemnation of the Senate bill is the fact that Mexiico's President Vicente Fox is in favor of it.

To see how your own Senators voted regarding this bill, here is the link:

How Senators Voted

One thing to think about in regard to the illegal immigration situation. The federal government can't enforce a situation without amnesty. The U.S. Government doesn't have enough boots on the ground to enforce the rounding up of 12 million people. They don't want the rest of the United States to know that, but the truth is they don't have the means, the people, the structure or anything else that could support it because they are so incompetent. Truth be known, the current illegal population is well organized because of their regular church goings and the catholic church community. The rest of this country used to have the same and that was the unity which kept us free. Today the current legal population of this country doesn't have that unity, the federal government has no control and the illegal populace has the unity and the control. The feds can't see it but in my opinion the truth is any organized faction, such as the illegals in the country, could over throw our current government in a heart beat as our current federal government are weak and stupid. We don't have any troops here, they are in Iraq and Afghanistan, another stupid move and everyone knows that no country has been able to stop a revolution with an army made of it's own citizens. I hope the idiots in Washington wake up as I don't want to live under communist or facist rule but I think the folks in washington are so involved with themselves that they can't see.

Originally posted by jsobecky
Yes, the chances of the illegals taking the first step to riot is probably true. But I think the backlash from America would be swift and bloody. The illegals would lose any political support they might currently have.

I meant to say amnesty law, not bill. Sorry! What i meant was that if we said sorry guys 2/3 of you have to go now then they would riot and cause upheaval. In a situation like that they would have no political support anyway because they were told to leave already and knew they would be rounded up. For all intents and purposes they would have nothing to lose by rioting. Congress knows this and this is why i feel that they will grant amnesty. They know we REAL americans wont do any such thing so they are picking the lesser of 2 evils. They also get the added benefit of purchasing the latino vote which if you do the math is in the neighborhood of 45,000,000 people.

Even if they pass a stronger law its not like anybody is just going to "report to deport". It would be YEARS before we could even have the infrastructure in place for employers to check employee status, to weed out the ones here less than 2 years, or have the manpower in place to check each one for upholding their end of the amnesty bargain (learning english, paying back taxes and fines, etc).

Local police need to be given the power TODAY to patrol near the 7-11 day-work hangouts and make spot checks for ID's. I guarantee you that if they did that in my town that my commute to work would be cut in half overnight and they would all return to their countries of origin. Immediately crack down on employers that hire these people and give local police the ability to patrol and detain and they will all go home. You wouldnt even need to build jails to hold them because after the first dozen arrests or so in each area they would all be too scared to continue working and would leave of their own free will.

If i up and decided to move to porta vallarta to build myself a nice retirement home without going through the proper channels do you think that the mexican government would care one bit that i had already established a home and roots in the area when they arrested me? Please...Id be in a tijuana jail or deported so fast it would make your head spin. We need to take a lesson from our neighbors to the south and adopt their immigration standards.

No more Mr. nice guy.

A couple of things:

Did anyone catch any interviews of Senators last night? One Senator mentioned that it would be the year 2011 before a fool-proof ID card would be available! Five years?? Unacceptable, imo.

I think that clamping down on employers would be the most effective way to stop the illegals from being hired. A heavy fine is necessary; they only hear you when it hits them in the wallet.

Also, it is not necessary to deal with all 12 million illegals at once. A few dozen highly publicized arrests and deportations would start to spread the word that we are serious.

Another thing that is often misunderstood: the Latino vote is by no means all in favor of illegal immigration. And the illegals can't vote anyway.

I do think that, even though Americans would probably not be the first to protest or riot, the average American would be mighty peeved if the illegals rioted. And there are many ways the Americans would react, imo, from boycotts to whatever.

Some of these points were already made by Escrotomus, and I am in total agreement with him.

Originally posted by GrndLkNatv
One thing to think about in regard to the illegal immigration situation. The federal government can't enforce a situation without amnesty. The U.S. Government doesn't have enough boots on the ground to enforce the rounding up of 12 million people. They don't want the rest of the United States to know that, but the truth is they don't have the means, the people, the structure or anything else that could support it because they are so incompetent. Truth be known, the current illegal population is well organized because of their regular church goings and the catholic church community. The rest of this country used to have the same and that was the unity which kept us free. Today the current legal population of this country doesn't have that unity, the federal government has no control and the illegal populace has the unity and the control. The feds can't see it but in my opinion the truth is any organized faction, such as the illegals in the country, could over throw our current government in a heart beat as our current federal government are weak and stupid. We don't have any troops here, they are in Iraq and Afghanistan, another stupid move and everyone knows that no country has been able to stop a revolution with an army made of it's own citizens. I hope the idiots in Washington wake up as I don't want to live under communist or facist rule but I think the folks in washington are so involved with themselves that they can't see.

Correct about not having the "boots" on the ground. There are currently 175,000 Law Enforcement personnel in the US for 12 million? Can't be done.

Incorrect about the troops. There are 135,000 troops in Iraq and less than 20,000 in Afghanistan. There are currectly 1.8 Million Active Duty and 860,000 Reserves.

The forces in Iraq and Afghan. are a very small percent.